A6 -location of scene and 2nd appeal

[propatria27]

Pete,

ref: your post about the gun and its ammunition, a question for you. When a Webley 38 is broken for re-loading, are the spent cartridges automatically ejected from the chamber, or do they have to be removed manually?

As to where he kept the gun, it was strongly suggested that it was stashed in Dixie France's flat somewhere, to the horror of Charlotte France when she was told about it. Was it Louise Anderson who made this suggestion? I haven't got my books to hand at the moment, to check.

Graham

Graham, just posted a film that will answer your question,

Pete

[propatria27]

Pete,

ref: your post about the gun and its ammunition, a question for you. When a Webley 38 is broken for re-loading, are the spent cartridges automatically ejected from the chamber, or do they have to be removed manually?

As to where he kept the gun, it was strongly suggested that it was stashed in Dixie France's flat somewhere, to the horror of Charlotte France when she was told about it. Was it Louise Anderson who made this suggestion? I haven't got my books to hand at the moment, to check.

Graham

Graham, according to BW hardback 1997, page 146, it was a conversation between Charlotte France and Louise Anderson during the committtal proceedings on 28th November 1961. Although the statement made by Mrs France was not used in evidence, it strikes me that some of the detailed information provided i.e. the colour and quantity of the blankets and the location of the airing cupboard, could only be known by someone with an intimate knowledge of the flat - certainly not Louise Anderson, who, according to Mrs France, went on to describe these exact details.

Pete

[Graham]

Hmm, very interesting, Pete. My own experience with hand-guns is limited to a weak little .22 revolver, and single-shot target-pistols. I didn't know that the Webley could be used with both single- and double-action. The removal of the spent cartridges is also interesting - as you say, you could just let them drop to the ground as in the film, or collect them in the palm (and maybe risk a burn?)

The finding of the two spent cases from the murder weapon in the room at The Vienna Hotel has been viewed as being highly suggestive of JH having a bit of a practice with his gun somewhere, and re-loading it in the hotel room.

Yes, you're right - it was a conversation between Louise Anderson and Mrs France during the trial. I also recall that Anderson described accurately a butcher's bag (in which the gun was kept?) that was in the airing-cupboard, and that's what really put the wind up Mrs France. The assumption is, obviously, that Anderson got this information from JH, who was in quite regular contact with her.

Graham

[Limehouse]

Pete,

ref: your post about the gun and its ammunition, a question for you. When a Webley 38 is broken for re-loading, are the spent cartridges automatically ejected from the chamber, or do they have to be removed manually?

As to where he kept the gun, it was strongly suggested that it was stashed in Dixie France's flat somewhere, to the horror of Charlotte France when she was told about it. Was it Louise Anderson who made this suggestion? I haven't got my books to hand at the moment, to check.

Graham

Good question Graham, and one that has a significant impact on the issue of the cartirdge cases being left at the hotel.

Yes, Louise Anderson told Charlotte France (on the way to court, when they were sharing a car) that Hanratty had told her he had a gun hidden at the France home. Now, we presume Hanratty told her this BEFORE the crime took place. So, why didn't that set alarm bells ringing. I mean, if a man who had shared my home casually told me he had a powerful weapon hidden at a friend's house (especially a friend with young children) I would be shocked and horrified. Was LA used to mixing with this sort of fellow? If Hanratty told LA about the gun AFTER the crime he would be a total fool, wouldn't he?

I wonder at what point LA told the police about the gun at the France house (or did she?). Could it have been when they were leaning on her hard for fidning so much loot at her shop and home?

[Limehouse]

Graham, according to BW hardback 1997, page 146, it was a conversation between Charlotte France and Louise Anderson during the committtal proceedings on 28th November 1961. Although the statement made by Mrs France was not used in evidence, it strikes me that some of the detailed information provided i.e. the colour and quantity of the blankets and the location of the airing cupboard, could only be known by someone with an intimate knowledge of the flat - certainly not Louise Anderson, who, according to Mrs France, went on to describe these exact details.

Pete

Hi Pete,

Yes, isn't it stange that LA went to the trouble of describing exactly where the gun was hidden. I mean, she even told Mrs france how many blankets there were in her airing cupboard and what colour they were. She knew the gun was wrapped in a carrier bag from a local butchers and told Mrs france that too. What an odd thing to do. And how well she remembered all these details from a 'casual' conversation that she had with Hanratty weeks before. And how strange she didn't contact Mrs France when she had been told all this, to warn her that the gun was in her airing cupboard - just in case one of her children came across it. I mean, you might not be a grass and contact the police, but at least you'd tip the poor woman off, wouldn't you?

[Graham]

I think you have to accept the very strong probability that, for whatever reason, JH told LA about the gun and where it was kept. Having said that, it does strike me as odd that he told her in great, and perhaps unnecessary, detail. And - surmise here - once having told her, he probably offered to do her harm if she passed it on to anyone else.

Although it was hinted at the time that JH's relationship with LA was purely business and platonic, I wonder....

G

[Limehouse]

I think you have to accept the very strong probability that, for whatever reason, JH told LA about the gun and where it was kept. Having said that, it does strike me as odd that he told her in great, and perhaps unnecessary, detail. And - surmise here - once having told her, he probably offered to do her harm if she passed it on to anyone else.

Although it was hinted at the time that JH's relationship with LA was purely business and platonic, I wonder....

G

Hi Graham,

Hanratty certainly seems to have gone into a great deal of detail. What made him think she needed or wanted to know the quantity and number of blankets in the airing cupboard - or the name of the butcher in whose carrier bag the gun was wrapped. I mean, he told her all that - but never told her where he got the gun from!

LA's testimony about this 'conversation' with Hanratty was the only 'evidence' that linked Hanratty to a gun. And Charles Frances' testimony about the hiding place on the bus is the only 'evidence' that links Hanratty to the gun's hiding place. I wonder if it was France who actually told Anderson about his airing cupboard, the colour and number of blankets and the name of his local butcher. Or could it be that the police had already searched Frances' home (as well as LA's) and noted all these details because they needed to link Hanratty to a gun?

To me, the whole issue of 'the gun in the airing cupboard' and the 'cartridge cases in the hotel room' stinks more than a kipper would have done if it had been 'hiding' at the back of that hotel chair for three weeks.

[Natalie Severn]

point of information [needed]
Julie,
Can you tell me whether or not the bag had the name of the butchers shop on it where the brother of Charlotte France worked.I am pretty certain the bag was a butcher's bag from the shop the brother worked in.Yes the name of their butchers was Tomkins-Woffinden says Charlotte France's brother used to bring her meat ,every Friday, in a bag with the name of 'Tomkins' butcher on it.I believe I have read that the France brother worked in the butcher's shop
Best
Norma

[Limehouse]

point of information [needed]
Julie,
Can you tell me whether or not the bag had the name of the butchers shop on it where the brother of Charlotte France worked.I am pretty certain the bag was a butcher's bag from the shop the brother worked in.Yes the name of their butchers was Tomkins-Woffinden says Charlotte France's brother used to bring her meat ,every Friday, in a bag with the name of 'Tomkins' butcher on it.I believe I have read that the France brother worked in the butcher's shop
Best
Norma

Hi Norma,

Sorry, I haven't heard about Charlotte Frances' brother working in a butchers. I read that the gun at the France house was supposed to have been wrapped in a paper carrier bag carrying the name of a local butcher. LA described it to Mrs France on the way to court.

Sorry to not be more helpful.

Julie

[Natalie Severn]

Charlotte France had two brothers that we know of.One of them stood by the phone when Hanratty rang France in panic -I think it was on October 5th 1961- saying to Charles France ,"Dixie ,Dixie they want me for the A6 murder!"However unknown to Hanratty at this time the police had also arrived in the house that morning and were checking things over.
When Paul Foot went to interview Charlotte France some 6 years later, he had a most unpleasant experience -his encounter with her brothers was more than just a frosty silence ---- they more or less gave him the boot.
The family - for a long time- had quite a known ' reputation ' for slipperiness and with being rumoured as being on the edges of the criminal community ---Charles France, even after losing his job as a doorman at the Rehearsal Club ,Soho, played rummy -at which he was an expert- into the small hours in the basement of the Rehearsal Club .It was here that some really really ' big time ' and big name East End gangsters went to gamble after midnight ---France would oversee their bets -and it is known that a cache of guns was kept down in the Rehearsal Club basement ---hidden away but available ---at a price .

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Norma,

Sorry, I haven't heard about Charlotte Frances' brother working in a butchers. I read that the gun at the France house was supposed to have been wrapped in a paper carrier bag carrying the name of a local butcher. LA described it to Mrs France on the way to court.

Sorry to not be more helpful.

Julie

Various reports say the name of the butchers shop "Tomkins" [including Charlotte's statement to police of 12/1/62] was on the bag the gun was in when it was found with the ammunition wrapped in a hanky-and it was from this shop that Charlotte France's brother brought the family home meat every Friday.see Woffinden 1997 hardback -this is reported in the statement of Charlotte France 12th January 1962 -she mention's her brother's reason for having this bag and what it was used for by him]page 147

[Graham]

Interestingly, after our recent contact regarding Huntercombe Lane, the passage about Charlotte France's brother and the Tomkins butcher's bag is also on Page 147 of my 1999 paperback edition of 'The Final Verdict'.

Out of interest, with regard to her two hard brothers,does anyone know what Charlotte France's maiden-name was?

Apart from his tenure at the Rehearsal Club, Dixie France also 'presided over' the jazz caff The Harmony Inn on Archer Street, Soho. I include here a few words about the place, and about Dixie, with due acknowledgment to the website 'Classic Cafes':

The caff was presided over by Dixie France who was allegedly a police informer who gave evidence at the Hanratty murder trial (and mysteriously committed suicide shortly after Hanratty was hanged in 1962.)

Those in the know said that there was an arsenal of weapons under the counter ready for any emergencies, mostly the punch-ups that arose over the football machine that occupied one corner of the room.

It seems that it was here, rather than The Rehearsal, where there was 'an arsenal of weapons', and it might also suggest that Dixie wasn't quite the meek, mouse-like little figure he's been represented as being over the years. He might have sheltered his family from his criminal doings, but I kind of get the impression that he was a real Jack-the-Lad and hard as nails with it. Certainly, Hanratty had some respect for him. The suspicion that Dixie supplied JH with the murder weapon is as old as the A6 Case itself, almost, and if I were a gambling-man I'd say that it's true. It's ironic that there was a Dixie's Cafe in Rhyl, in which town JH claimed he was staying at the time of the crime.

The other suggested source of the gun, Donald Slack, vehemently denied that he had ever spoken to JH about getting a gun for him. Well, he would, wouldn't he?

I haven't heard before that the gun and ammo found on the bus by Edwin Cooke were in a bag of any description, let alone the Tompkins butcher's bag. Cooke said that he lifted the seat, and saw a handkerchief and a couple of bullets. The gun and the rest of the bullets were under the handkerchief.

Graham

[Natalie Severn]

Thanks Graham,
Regarding Slack he repeatedly denied this story and said that Acott was blowing up what Hanratty said out of all proportion.No gun had ever passed between them or been 'discussed ' in any serious way ie with regards to obtaining or using a gun.It was just a little ruse of Acott's in which he pretended to Hanratty that Slack had told him he had been approached by him asking for a gun but Hanratty's explanation tallied exactly with that of Slack viz that any such talk was just a manner of speech that arose out of a bleak joke.
You are right about France being quite well known as a 'suspicious ' character-not much is known about Charlotte but some mock the notion that she knew nothing of her husbands nightly -'Rehearsal ' activities -ditto Charlotte's brothers-one was named John Russell [on an earlier thread here by Blue Moon who claimed s/he know them well].
The story of the butcher's bag is not documented-its probably hearsay.But Charlotte France definitely made that police statement about Tomkins bags being used by her brother to bring them meat each Friday.

[Graham]

Regarding Slack he repeatedly denied this story and said that Acott was blowing up what Hanratty said out of all proportion.No gun had ever passed between them or been 'discussed ' in any serious way ie with regards to obtaining or using a gun.It was just a little ruse of Acott's in which he pretended to Hanratty that Slack had told him he had been approached by him asking for a gun but Hanratty's explanation tallied exactly with that of Slack viz that any such talk was just manner of speech.

Correct. I agree. Slack was also an off-track bookie, and JH used to place bets with him. I think off-track betting was illegal in those days, so another reason why Acott had a bit of a lever on Slack. JH, by his own admission, also gave Slack a folder containing personal things, and which was never seen again.
At the trial Acott denied telling JH that Slack had told him, Acott, about his, JH's, request for a gun.

You are right about France being quite well known as a 'suspicious ' character-not much is known about Charlotte but some mock the notion that she knew nothing of her husbands nightly -'Rehearsal ' activities -ditto Charlotte's brothers-one was named John Russell [on an earlier thread here by Blue Moon who claimed s/he know them well]

In one of the TV documentaries about the A6 Case, a daughter of Charles France says that it wasn't until the Case came to court that either she, her mother, or her sister knew of their father's involvement. I think this is something that you either accept or you don't. Personally, I do. And I do remember Blue Moon, now you mention him/her. Like a lot of old A6 posters, disappeared into the mist.

The story of the butcher's bag is not documented-its probably hearsay.But Charlotte France definitely made that police statement about Tomkins bags being used by her brother to bring them meat each Friday.

Yes, she did, but I can't find anywhere a suggestion that the gun + ammo were found in a butcher's bag under the bus seat. Clarke just said that the gun + ammo were under a hankie. I wonder if Louise Anderson was being leaned upon very heavily by Acott, as she was without any doubt a fence for stolen goods, and was perhaps 'primed' with this information in order to extract some kind of admission from Charlotte France. Just speculation on my part, though.

Graham

[Limehouse]

I just do not believe that Carlotte France did not know about her husband's criminal behaviour. France and Hanratty first met in jail some years before 1961. France's oldest daugher, Carol, was 16 in 1961 and Hanratty was 25. This means Dixie must have been in jail when she was a child and his wife Charlotte must have known where he was!