A6 -location of scene and 2nd appeal

[Stevo7395]

Route to Clophill and

So Nat,are you saying from Slough they drove Slough then to Heathrow (a London airport ) then through west and North London and then to say Edgware/Barnet area and then north onto the A6 from Barnet upto London Colney (now A1081 I think ) then Harpenden,Luton to Clophill or did they take the lanes from Slough to Watford and then St Albans to the A6. Sorry to sound confused, I'm sure I saw something that VS thought she was in Watford but the Police proved it was St Albans and not Watford they went through ?

The other bit that puzzles me is that whatever route was taken by the suspect afterwards to end up on the borders of London and Essex from Clophill would have to have gone through some busy towns and roads even by 1961's standards surely more people would have seen or noticed the car if the standard of driving was bad and by someone who had to ask how to operate the car.
I'm not suggesting it was JH but he was a car thief I'm told.On the other side of the debate why would this couple who witnessed the bad driving in Clophill just be dismissed by Beds Police ? Back then the Police were perhaps more respected than they are now and I'd find it unusual that a local couple in that village would not have been known by their local Bobby who would have named them to his/her superiors had they refused to give their details.....that doesn't make sense either or was their sighting dismissed by the Police because it didn't fit what they had in mind once they had gone after JH.

I'll no doubt get shot down in flames on this but trying to learn more all the time !

Cheers for now and Julie and Graham and all who've responded, thanks,

Steve

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Steve,
Easy to be confused ---they turned right onto Bath Road [ A4] ie after leaving the field in Dorney Reach and reaching the Bath Road-they then drove through Slough where they stopped at a milk machine and VS saw clock saying 11.45 and they continued on the A4 ' Bath Road -straight through A4 to London Airport where they stopped at Regent Garage and put in two gallons of petrol.Then went on a bit further then at Cranford turned left leaving the A4 drove North on same road through Hayes to A40 just East of Northolt and turned right onto A40 and continued on A40 through Greenford and Perivale to Hanger Lane where they turned left leaving the A40 [NOT taking the North Circular] and instead took the straightforward WATFORD ROAD past Alperton on past Kenton intersection all the time heading straight North to Watford and stop on Brookhills to buy Nelson cigarettes from a machine [-and gave one to gunman who smoked it-]they get to Watford less than 2 miles from the Gregsten home in Abbot's Langley on a straightforward direct route. He seems to know exactly where he is going up to this point---its after this that there is meandering.So he seems to have 'reconnoitred' the route up to this point. [have to leave this now as need to look at maps again] Point is ---they do miss turnings after this---end up in Clophill/A6
-there he becomes tired,looks at watch -plenty of time still he says- and he wants to tie them up until he is ready to move on-having made GREGSTEN drive the car Northwards he makes him turn it round and face London--[-not intending to kill them at this point surely if he was tying them up].

Steve-the gunman doesn't drive the car at any point up until the murder and rape when he twice asks Valerie to show him how to operate the gears,then switch on lights etc its after this that he shoots Valerie, leaving her for dead,and rushing off in the car with a great grinding of gears....

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Julie,
good to see you on here
Norma
x

[Stevo7395]

Yes Natalie, I suppose with a gun pointed at you that you'd drive wherever you were told.....had his assailant said I want to go to Watford or even Bedford MG would or may have suggested A412 Slough to Watford and then A405 to St Albans and then to the A6......I guess not so many milk or fag machines in less built up areas.....sorry just seems a more obvious route even then so whoever was pointing the gun did not know that part of SW Herts/Bucks and would not have trusted MG even if he was holding the gun and nervous ?. Did VG ever say that the culprit was drunk or even drugged.....it was knocking about even in those days. I've grown up in Beds and Herts and I know the surrounding areas ...ie Stanmore, Harrow, Bushey,Carpenders Park ?.....why is JH now buried in Carpenders Park Cemetery when moved from Bedford......did JH know the route passing South Oxhey and Carpenders Park both very close on the route they took to Clophill and why did his family choose to lay him to rest there In Carpenders Park and yes I know it's not far from Edgware..Also if Alphon and " others " were involved it must be possible to drive the car to a safehouse, clean yourself up and give the car in the early hours of the morning to someone else to dump it in Redbridge hence the sightings and different descriptions from the Essex witnesses. It's driving me nuts mate and I've had two months with a broken leg and nothing to do all day and now I've just found this forum, anyway thanks for updating me, cheers x

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Steve,
Well interestingly enough I believe the cleaning up of the car provides a very strong clue to the murder having been planned.Who would have had a house with a garage in 1961 where such cleaning could have taken place? Not Hanratty and not Alphon---and not Charles France for that matter-thougha big player it appears to me - committing suicide just before they hanged James Hanratty.
Incidently a business woman named Dorothy Milne used to park her identical Morris Minor in the exact same spot as the murder car was found in Avondale Ave ,Redbridge.However the owner of the house alongside asked her the week before to park on the other side of the road-exactly opposite which she did on Monday,Tuesday and Wednesday[the day of the murder] .She was not called by the prosecution though she made a statement to that effect to the police the next day .However Doreen Milne was called,an older lady who remembered seeing a Morris Minor parked there all day-which MUST have been Dorothy Milne's since there was no mention of there being two Morris Minors parked opposite each other in Avondale Crescent!
A woman named Margaret Thompson also made a statement saying the murder car was definitely NOT there at 5.30 PM when she had gone for some ingredients to the nearby shops with her little boy in his buggy but WAS there when she got back half an hour later at about 6pm and the murder car WAS there badly parked and blocking the pavement.Both these women's statements were withheld.The 2002 Appeal Judgement called them "the high water marks of non-disclosure"
Hope you feel better soon Steve
Norma

[Natalie Severn]

-writing too late at night last night-error-the name of the lady who was called by the prosecution was Doris Althoe.She testified that she had seen a Moris Minor parked in Avondale Crescent and that it was there all day.Since she didn't say there were TWO Morris Minors parked there identical in model and colour it makes her statement unreliable especially since Doreen Milne made a police statement saying she had parked her car exactly opposite where the second Moris Minor was found in Avondale Crescent at 6.30 pm on 23rd August and that her Morris Minor was there all day until late afternoon.She left it there each day and went on to work by tube.Doreen Milne was certain,that when she parked her car there at 8.15 there was no other Moris Minor parked opposite it on the other side of the road-it was 1.30 when I was writing my previous post and I was being interrupted and told the light needed turning off!
Best
Norma

[propatria27]

New Poster

Hello, I'm a new poster to this forum but have been reading previous posts for some weeks now trying to become familiar with what has been discussed. Having recently re-read the Bob Woffinden book (hardback version), some things occured to me that I would like to bring to the forum for comment:

1. A Morris 1000 was seen in a field by the "S" bends in Huntercombe Lane South at about 0945 pm by David Henderson - this is a different field to the one where the hijacking took place, which is in Marsh Lane. If this is the same vehicle, then they moved location for some reason.

2. According to the MG's mileage record and the mileage of the vehicle when found in Ilford, the Morris 1000 covered 233 miles. There were 2 gallons of fuel in the car when hijacked and they put in another 2 gallons near Heathrow Airport. VS states that the vehicle fuel consumption was about 40 miles per gallon - so I make that 160 miles on the fuel we know about. So where was the fuel for the other 73 miles obtained?

3. There has been mention of a link with dog racing tracks in London and the surrounding area, and it is known that PLA frequented dog tracks, but JH, in one of his final letters, on 3rd April 1962, to his parents (BW book page 311), he states "From the family I come from, there was no need for me to turn to crime, every man makes mistakes some time or other in his life, and my bad mistake was dog-racing. I feel that's what really put me on the road to crime". Has any research been done into what he meant by this?

I've got a few other thoughts that I'll go into on another post, but I keep an open mind on these things - the physical evidence (DNA) seems to point to JH's guilt, but the circumstantial and eyewitness does not.

Pete

[Limehouse]

Hello Pete and welcome to the thread,

Yes, apparently, MG and Vs did move that night. According to accounts I have read, both locations were fairly regular stopping points for MG and VS. A colleague of theirs who was interviewed about their relationship said that VS appealed to him to take her out for an evening when MG and VS were under pressure from their bosses about their relationship. During the evening, VS pointed at a place where she and MG regularly stopped. It seems it may have been Marsh Lane. Perhaps these locations were popular for courting couples of the time but if one spot was already occupied they moved to another?

The mileage and fuel issue together is one I have not seen discussed on these threads and I would think would be worthy of debate.

With reference to how Hanratty might have considered dog racing his route into crime, well my guess it that he got into debt at various times with illegal betting. At that time, off-course betting was illegal. There were no betting shops. You could only bet on course. To do that, you had to be at the races. However, there was a big demand for illegal off-course betting and I reckon Hanratty might have committed robberies to pay off people he owed money to but also to fund his habit. I would also think he ran a few off course bets himself and had to pay out punters.

Look forward to chatting with you.

Julie

[propatria27]

[QUOTE=Limehouse;243454]Hello Pete and welcome to the thread,

Thanks Julie. I'm a Londoner and lived from 1967 to 1977 in Redbridge, a short walk from the Underground station and I even used to deliver papers in Avondale Crescent - my parents continued to live there into the 1980's.

I think the JH link to dog racing is worth persuing as it provides a definite link (at least of interest) with PLA, so it is "possible" they knew each other or of each other.

The route of the Morris 1000 to Redbridge is also of interest to me - it was travelling west on the A12, at least from before the Ley Street junction, which is the main route (then and now) to Southend, which was mentioned on several occasions by PLA. The area where it was first spotted is past the North Circular Road and leads me to think that the driver had been much further east than previously considered.

Pete

[Graham]

Welcome to the boards, Pete.

Pete and Julie,

I think the mileage versus petrol used and remaining was discussed, but on the pre-crash Forum and thus was lost. It's an issue I've often wondered about, but of course we're assuming that the figures are correct. I wonder how VS knew that there were, quote '2 gallons of fuel in the tank'? I had a Moggie Minor when I was young, and the fuel-gauge was about as helpful and useful as a chocolate tea-pot. I watched the mileage, not the fuel-gauge. Also, my Moggie never achieved 40 m.p.g., either! It could only just do 40 m.p.h.!

B.t.w., the move from Hunterscombe Lane to Marsh Lane is one reason why it is difficult to accept claims that JH was sent to the cornfield by prior arrangement. Unless he followed them from Hunterscombe to Marsh Lane, that is - quite a walk.

One final point re: the car. I find it almost incredible that no forensic evidence was found in the car, other than 'legitimate' evidence left behind by MG, VS, MG's aunt, and other people who legitimately used the car. Not a fingerprint, not a hair, not a fibre, not a speck of dirt from the cornfield, not anything? I'm sure that even in 1961 the forensic means were available to detect minute traces of such things - unless of course the car received a cleaning which must have been to clinical standards. Always puzzled me, that has. I posted on this subject ages ago, so this is just a repeat. Any ideas, anyone?

Graham

[Limehouse]

Hi Pete,

Well, well. It seems we grew up just a stone's throw from each other! I was born in Walthamstow and grew up in Highams Park and Chingford. At one time I worked in Wanstead High Street. I also knew Woodford Green very well as i had family there. I still have family in Chingford but have lived in Peterborough for 24 years.

I know the area where the car was found quite well and it seems to me that whoever dumped it was heading for the tube station nearby?

[propatria27]

[QUOTE=Limehouse;243460]Hi Pete,


Julie, yes, I was born in Bow but we moved to Ilford in 1967 and my parents now live near Southend in South Benfleet.

Whoever dumped the car was heading for the Central Line at Redbridge Station, in my opinion. There was a station car park at Redbridge, but not sure if it existed in 1961 (I had a car stolen from there in 1978!). It is on the main road (A12) to Southend and very visible from the dual carriageway (at that time), but whoever was driving had already past one other Underground station, at Newbury Park (we can probably discount Gants Hill as it is underneath a roundabout), so I wonder why he didn't stop there?
I still think this is quite a way east from the scene of all the other incidents, although not far from Romford dog track.

Pete

[Limehouse]

Not far from Romford dog track Pete - and neven earer to Walthamstow dog track - near the North Circular Road!

[propatria27]

Another thing about the car that puzzles me - the damage to the front number plate and the rear bumper. Did I read somewhere that the reason William Lee wrote down the number of the Morris was because of a road traffic accident? If so, does that not lend credence to his story?

Pete

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Pete,
Welcome-what a fascinating background like Julie-so near Redbridge!
Not sure about bloke driving a motorcycle who noticed steamed up windows and light on seems a bit detailed for someone driving a motorcycle but ok-maybe.Valerie Storie didn't actually say the car had moved in any account she gave-only that he made them turn the car round to face the road the other way.
As far as dog racing goes it was more popular then than football in 1961 among [mostly ]working class people -nothing exceptional about it at that time.
Very interesting over the petrol/mileage matter.We don't know ofcourse whether Gregsten may have said it had only 2 gallons in order to deter the gunman from driving them off too far---and we know they stopped for more at London Airport Regent petrol garage.We also don't know when exactly Gregsten wrote his mileage in his book-was it before he went from Maidenhead to Abbots Langley/near Watford] to pick up his children from neighbours and take them to Cassiobury Park in Watford ? After that he returned them to Abbots Langley then drove back to pick up Valerie Storie in Slough [about 30 miles] .So he could have done 60 miles at least before the gunman got in the car.

Best
Norma