A6 Rebooted

[Limehouse]

Thank you for your kind comment, Julie.

I'm not sure if everyone currently posting is aware, but the actual scene of the A6 Crime, that is, the lay-by, no longer exists. It's actually under the northbound carriageway of the A6, which was duelled some time in fairly recent past. There is still a lay-by off the north-bound A6 carriageway, but it is not the lay-by.

Also, with regard to the sound of gunshots, I live in a semi-rural area, and certainly during the summer months there are guns and bird-scarers going off at all hours of the night; we just take no notice. I really don't think a few shots from a .38 revolver (which is not as loud as, for example, a 12-bore shot-gun) would have bothered the local residents near Deadman's Hill. Those houses on the photo actually look a lot closer than they are: I've been to the scene many times over the years, and the houses are further away than they seem.

Julie, your hypothesis re: The George pub on Wanstead High Street. I kind of get the impression that a bad 'un like Harry Roberts wouldn't have even wanted to know someone like JH, who until he got hold of a gun just burgled houses. Not that I've ever been involved with the naughty classes, but I think there was a very definite level of class-distinction, almost, between a common-or-garden burglar and a bloke prepared to shoot three coppers. I can only speculate here, but I really don't think that our JH was in the same class as Mr Roberts, in criminal terms.

Ed, reference my post - I don't think the gunman needed a 'safe haven' to clean the car. It would still be only semi-daylight when he left the lay-by, so he could drive off and pull in to some sheltered spot somewhere quite close and do the necessary.

I'm not a betting man, but after the car was left in Avondale Crescent (significantly near a tube station) I'd have a pound to a pinch of **** that JH made his way to Dixie France's flat. Speculation? Yep.

Graham

Hi Graham,

You are right, of course, if the gunman was Hanratty. But if it wasn't, then my hypothesis surely has some credit? VS said the gunman had a cockney accent. We have debated many times to what extent Hanratty's accent was 'cockney' - and it is a matter of perception also - but if the gunman was not Hanratty there were numerous candidates knocking around that side of London who would have had such an accent and may have had even tenuous ties with HR.

Off to work now. Have a nice day all.

[Limehouse]

Hi again Graham - whether or not Hanratty (or, as some prefer, the gunman) needed a 'safe haven' to clean the car, wouldn't he have needed to obtain some cleaning items from somewhere?

Best regards,

OneRound

Good point OR. I have often wondered that, if someone went to such lengths to remove forensic evidence from the back of the car, why didn't they clean up the blood? Surely travelling around with it still in the car was a risk? Did they have limited time or were they just too squeamish?

Graham has, in the past, pondered as to whether the forensic search of the car was as thorough as it could have been and that perhaps even no cleaning took place.

It is one of those strange aspects of the case that just add to its mystery.

[Ed James]

Regarding the later dumping of the car at Avondale Crescent, let me try to spell out more clearly and fully what I am suggesting.

The gunman (it could have been Hanratty but focusing on him could discourage an open mindset),panic struck,covered in blood, struggling to drive and find his way needs to get some place where he will be supported. Dumping the car quickly in say Bedford or Luton is not an option because of the blood on his clothing , perhaps also because he is not thinking straight and in any case his knowledge of the area and public transport may be thin.

Having killed MG and left VS for dead, he thinks he has got some time advantage before the police are on the case.

The later dumping of the car indicates the car was 'hidden' elsewhere during the 23 August and that could only be a place where the gunman could expect support in its concealment and cleaning. It isn't tenable that the gunman, acting alone, was driving around or could have been parked up in some isolated spot ,simply delaying a final dumping of the car. I think it right that a petty criminal like Hanratty seeking help would have got short shrift from the more elevated criminal , unless it was a contracted abduction.

But that 'safe haven' could only be a temporary hiding place because the car would be hot and about to get hotter with the radio announcements that the police were looking for it. There would be heated and prolonged discussion about where and when to dump the car. The supporter(s) wouldn't want a link to the Redbridge/Wanstead area which would lead the police sniffing around.

So the very risky but only option was to dump the car, near a tube station , suggesting the gunman had fled to Central London or elsewhere. Risk would be reduced by making the journey a short one. The bent number plate which Woffinden describes as 'barely visible' and an accompanying car covering the rear also decreases risk. If appreheded in the course of the dumping, the driver with an alibi (probably not the gunman) could claim he had found the car with the keys in the ignition and decided to steal it , only to his horror finding the blood inside and that the police were looking for it.

People have asked why the murder gun wasn't simply dumped with the car. Well, to have the gun in the car when it was being dumped would have been inescapably incriminating if caught. In any case, dumping the gun away from Redbridge /Wanstead would help switch police attention .

Ok speculation but what else explains a later dumping.It does derive logically from the later dumping and may give food for thought for a different explanation for other aspects of the case.

regards

Ed

[moste]

Really good snap of location from 1961, I was there just last June showing the wife the spot where it all took place. Now of course as Graham says it is under the road, and you can actually drive in and out of the layby. Also the trees and shrubbery are quite dense, It is used a lot by people parking up and taking strolls or walking their dogs in Maulden woods. I have to say though being as close to the farm cottages as this ,even given that the snap makes the buildings look a bit closer than they actually are,a person having blazed away in the dead of night with his pistol ,wouldn't want to hang around,

[moste]

Norma says in her book that on the A6 after Clophill an illuminated sign indicating Deadmans Hill came into view. I 'm wondering approximately where the sign was? If anyone remembers it.:

[Sherlock Houses]

Norma says in her book that on the A6 after Clophill an illuminated sign indicating Deadmans Hill came into view. I 'm wondering approximately where the sign was? If anyone remembers it.:

It may have been the case that the RAC Telephone box pictured below was illuminated at night.

Who knows, perhaps this ironically named location had been the intended destination for Gregsten in the killer's twisted mind.

[Derrick]

Houses

I believe that Deadman's Hill is so named as it was used as a site for the hanging of highwaymen, back in the day like!

I could be wrong though!

Del Turpin

[Sherlock Houses]

Houses

I believe that Deadman's Hill is so named as it was used as a site for the hanging of highwaymen, back in the day like!

I could be wrong though!

Del Turpin

Pleased to see that you read the accompanying text Del. Your ancestor was a bit of a Dick though. He was almost a Turnip too. I wonder if the masked Wicked Lady herself, Margaret Lockwood, ever rode her horse close to Deadman's Hill ?

[Derrick]

Oops, I didn't read the aside, I had heard that fact from somewhere else!

Del Turnip

[Graham]

If anyone decides to take a trip to Deadman's Hill, there's another little tourist attraction you shouldn't miss. To the right, as you begin to climb Deadman's Hill, is a little side road which leads to the ruins of St Mary's Church, Clophill. It used to be sign-posted, don't know if it still is. I visited about 20 years ago and you could still get to the ruins and have a wander around, but not sure if this is still the case. In the late 1960's the church was the scene of some appalling black magic rituals (and I don't mean sharing a box of chocolates....) in which at least one grave was desecrated and the bones scattered about the churchyard. A spot of animal sacrifice also took place. I don't know if anyone was ever brought to book for this. Oh, and the ruins are supposed to be haunted.

Chances are that Hanratty had driven, and been driven, along Deadman's Hill over the years, en route to his aunt at Bedford. He also drove past it after the murder when he took Gladys Deacon to Bedford.

Graham

[moste]

That's right I remember about that Graham, when living in the Dunstable, area between 1986 and '94. If Deadmans Hill was so called because of Highwayman hangings, I wonder if the same applies to Deadmans Cross just a couple of miles to the east and north a bit past Haynes? not even big enough to call a village really. ,but does have a pub (The Greyhound) might try it next time up that way. wouldn't fancy Deadmans Cross on my address

[Sherlock Houses]

..but does have a pub (The Greyhound) might try it next time up that way. wouldn't fancy Deadmans Cross on my address

Being the greyhound enthusiast and frequenter of pubs that he was, I think Alphon might have liked to have popped into that pub if ever he was in that neck of the woods on his travels.

[Derrick]

He also drove past it after the murder when he took Gladys Deacon to Bedford.

Hi Graham

Can you please give us a reference to where you got this fact from?

Del

[moste]

Hello Derrick,I've just got the Bob woffindens book here, He covers the Gladys Deacon Drive to Bedford and afterwards on page 134\135 in quite good detail. All the best, Steve.

[moste]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ieG2dQ5PIc0 Hye all. I've just changed my mind about recent statements re-the sound of a .38 Enfield possibly waking anybody up in the local houses near Deadmans Hill. It sounds more like my Cisco Kid cap gun back in the 50s!