A6 Rebooted

[Victor]

He remembered a great deal in fact that tallied with what we know people saw and we now know was there!

Hi Norma,

And yet Sherrard didn't call them to the first appeal because they didn't tally! Surely his opinion is a lot more informed than yours.

KR,
Vic.

[Victor]

Alphon's alibi was not exactly rock solid.

Hi Julie,

His signature (unde rthe alias "Durrant") in the Vienna guest book is a lot stronger than the ambush alibi.

KR,
Vic.

[Victor]

Even Charlie Jones who sold papers each day thought the Liverpool to Rhyl Crosville bus arrived "about 7 or 8 pm"!

Hi Norma,

The same Charlie Jones who confessed to lying and being bullied into doing so by Evans?

The most accurate "clock" is the time the sun sets ,which,on August 22nd 1961 was just before 8.30 pm.Lighting up time is about 30 mins after so she saw him after 9 pm.

That doesn't make sense, surely lighting up time is before it gets dark.

we find she told him she told him it was because :"It was getting dark" and "the street lights were lit"[ie approx. 30 mins after sunset].
Well it certainly was not getting dark at 7.30. ---nor were the street lights lit--- so Mrs Walker was out in her timing and must have seen the young man 30 mins after 8.30---around 9 pm!

I'd work it the other way - street lights lit before sunset when it was "getting dark", 30 minutes before 8:30 is 8pm which is before the bus from Liverpool arrived! Conclusion, Mrs Walker didn't see Hanratty.

KR,
Vic.

[babybird67]

Yet you accept without hesitation evidence that was "fiddled with" ,

Do you mean the statement by Hanratty that was copied in parts? Fiddled with suggests it was changed. Evidence shows it was transcribed, not altered. There is a difference.

evidence that was suppressed ,

What evidence was suppressed? Do you mean the ambush alibi? Sherrard had an opportunity to call Rhyl witnesses but chose not to. That is because their evidence contradicted his clients. That wouldn't have been very helpful would it. I agree there are certain things that could have been bettered handled in the original trial. We have had two appeals since then. Judicial process has been followed. All the evidence has been examined, including that 'suppressed' from the original trial, and none of it shows that Hanratty was innocent. Not even close. The man was guilty.

a flawed police operation

Yes it was flawed but they got the right man for the crime.

,the obscenity of abused judicial procedures ?

No idea to what you're referring here...unless you're suggesting allowing someone their full quota of appeals is somehow obscene. I think it is more obscene calling the victim a liar myself.

The case against Hanratty was painfully slim and even what there was was mostly concocted by gangsters.

Haha! Valerie Storie would giggle at being called a gangster! Please, please, for a laugh, put some evidence up of evidence concocted by gangsters! Go on. I'd love to read it.

I trust none of the evidence about "sperm" that was kept in the drawer of a police station for 40 years--- more grotesquery...more smoke and mirrors!

The only smoke and mirrors going on is the bathetic attempt to exonerate a convicted murderer and rapist by some seriously misguided people. That is truly what is obscene.

[Victor]

Hi Norma,

That's astonishingly inaccurate for such a small post, let's count the errors...

evidence that was "fiddled with"

1. ESDA tests don't confirm the interview notes were re-written, quite the opposite - a couple of pages were but that doesn't prove the contents were materially "fiddled with".

evidence that was suppressed

2. The contemporary rules were followed.

a flawed police operation

3. There were a couple of mistakes such as the police issuing a description that included "brown eyes" when there is no evidence Valerie ever said that, but that hardly amounts to the whole investigation being "flawed".

the obscenity of abused judicial procedures

4. Foot and Woffinden are quite complimentary about Judge Gorman.

The case against Hanratty was painfully slim and even what there was was mostly concocted by gangsters.

5. The DNA made a "strong case even stronger"
6. The majority of the evidence was from Valerie - definitely not a gangster.

I trust none of the evidence about "sperm" that was kept in the drawer of a police station for 40 years

7. The knicker piece was in MPL - Met Police Labs, not a police station, the hanky which didn't have semen on it was with Bedfordshire Constabulary.

I think your investigation is seriously flawed. Maybe your advanced emotional intelligence has made you overly sympathetic to Hanratty and is blinding you to the facts.

KR,
Vic.

ps. Hey Jen, I completely agree with you.

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Norma,

And yet Sherrard didn't call them to the first appeal because they didn't tally! Surely his opinion is a lot more informed than yours.

KR,
Vic.

Trevor Dutton"s statement to Abergele Police apparently arrived after the trial had finished and either never got to Sherrard in time for him to attend to it properly or question him .Moreover after the sickeningly arrogant and contemptuous treatment doled out to Mrs Jones by Swanwick,which resulted in her statement being counter-productive to Hanratty, Sherrard was probably anxious to avoid any more such ghastly, abusive and insulting behaviour by the prosecution as that dished out to Mrs Jones,implying she was a greedy liar etc ,---insults of the kind that might only further damage Hanratty"s case.Mr Dutton and other Rhyl witnesses had far more to lose in terms of their reputations than Swanwick"s bad bunch of "witnesses for the prosecution" like the jailbird gangsters ,Nudds and Langdale and other such seasoned liars produced by the Swanwick and the prosecution. .
The only reference to Mr Dutton"s statement to Abergele police , by the defence, is on a scrap of paper, written by a clerk in the solicitor"s office in London.So it would appear that " informed" may not be quite the apt word to use here.Nimmo ,later ,never bothered with it either.
But don"t be too insulting about the late Mr Trevor Dutton.His sons are alive and well and run a thriving business near Rhyl and they do not and have no reason to believe their father was anything but a man of sterling integrity who believed throughout his life that it was James Hanratty who tried to sell him a gold watch .Mr Dutton believed he had seen Hanratty on 23rd August 1961 and he knew the date was correct because he went to Barclay"s bank in Rhyl High Street twice a year and has a record of the transaction.

People have long memories and some of the people involved in Rhyl are non too happy about the way they or their parents were treated.

[Natalie Severn]

That doesn't make sense, surely lighting up time is before it gets dark.


I'd work it the other way - street lights lit before sunset when it was "getting dark", 30 minutes before 8:30 is 8pm which is before the bus from Liverpool arrived! Conclusion, Mrs Walker didn't see Hanratty.

KR,
Vic.

Nonsense...look it up on the sites.Do your homework for once!
Lighting up time is half an hour after sunset.

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Julie,

His signature (unde rthe alias "Durrant") in the Vienna guest book is a lot stronger than the ambush alibi.

KR,
Vic.

Except that Juliana Galves said she never saw him arrive and Nudds stated he arrived at two different times---one in the afternoon---giving him no alibi whatsoever!!!!!

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Norma,

That's astonishingly inaccurate for such a small post, let's count the errors...

3] There were a couple of mistakes such as the police issuing a description that included "brown eyes" when there is no evidence Valerie ever said that, but that hardly amounts to the whole investigation being "flawed".

....and who,for crying out loud,gave them the description?-----"deep set brown eyes----not too deep set"?

It could have been no one else but Valerie ,who went on to "identify" a certain "Mr Micheal Clark" as Gregsten"s killer and her rapist .

But then what does it matter so long as her mistakes didn"t send Michael Clark to the gallows?

[Natalie Severn]

[QUOTE=Victor;166563]

7. The knicker piece was in MPL - Met Police Labs, not a police station, the hanky which didn't have semen on it was with Bedfordshire Constabulary.
[/QUOTE]

Yes,and after 40 years it had probably been in and out of those drawers more times than a fiddler"s elbow!

[Limehouse]

Hi Julie,

Yes. See http://www.cerebromente.org.br/n11/m...ro-homens.html
The "father" of sociobiology, Edward O. Wilson, of Harvard University (10), said that human females tend to be higher than males in empathy, verbal skills, social skills and security-seeking, among other things, while men tend to be higher in independence, dominance, spatial and mathematical skills, rank-related aggression, and other characteristics.


Quite possibly but do you have a medical basis for making such a claim? There is a medical diagnosis saying "mentally deficient" from a doctor who actually examined him. There are many other alternatives such as lack of interest in school, and of course when Jim fell behind then things would only get worse for him as the school system wasn't as inclusive in those days.

KR,
Vic.

Firstly Victor - sociology is not science. It is a human science certainly - but it is not science.

Secondly - a diagnosis of dyslexia is not a medical diagnosis and a medically qualified doctor would not be especially qualified to make such a diagnosis. Diagnosis of dyslexia would be made by an educational psychologist but it can also be diagnosed by a specialist literacy consultant. I have been working as a specialist for many years and I am also involved in literacy teacher training. Hanratty displays classic characteristics of auditory-related dyslexia. For example - when asked to spell solicitor - he wrote SLETER. This is typical of someone trying to decode a spelling but having insufficient visual memory and audio decoding of multi-syllable words.

With reference to the 'mentally difficient' diagnosis - this was almost certainly related to Hanratty's poor reading and writing skills and possibly his poor cognitive skills reating to language. Such diagnosis were frequently made at that time. My own brother was given such a diagnosis in around 1960 due to learning difficulties related to a condition called neurofibromatosis which affects all of us in the family. I can assure you - my brother is far from mentally deficient.

A condition such as dyslexia would certainly account for someone not being able to find a place he had visited only once in the dark. It would also account for his poor reading and writing skills - but as we know - Hanratty was often verbally strong - and this is also typical of people with dyslexia as they draw on their language strengths which are more often verbal.

[Limehouse]

Hi Julie,

His signature (unde rthe alias "Durrant") in the Vienna guest book is a lot stronger than the ambush alibi.

KR,
Vic.

His signature was written - when?

[Derrick]

Hi Julie,

His signature (unde rthe alias "Durrant") in the Vienna guest book is a lot stronger than the ambush alibi.

KR,
Vic.

Hi Vic
And at what time did Alphon make that entry in the Vienna book?

Not later than 1pm.

This shows he has no abili at all...in fact it certainly places him in London on the day of the hijack and within plenty of time of getting to Dorney later that evening.

Derrick

[Natalie Severn]

Haha! Valerie Storie would giggle at being called a gangster!

But...........and its a big but......... Valerie had,only a few weeks earlier ,pointed to "Michael Clark" and "identified " him as her rapist and Gregsten"s killer.

So how could she have been "certain" if she was able to go to an identity parade and pick out Micheal Clark as the murderer?[a man she later agreed she thought looked like Alphon].


If you really want to know about these gangster"s read up on them.What they did and what they said were after all of crucial importance to the prosecution,[ the police , Mr Swanwick,etc] men whose word you implicitly " trust". Yet all the time you pour scorn and derision on the word of decent, law abiding people from Rhyl, Mr Dutton ,Mr Larman ,Mrs Walker, Mrs Vincent ,Mrs Margaret Davies and Mrs Betty Davies the landlady of Ingledene,Mrs Jones and her daughter Brenda Harris .There is a massive inconsistency of judgment here somehow.
You want to know who "concocted evidence"? Read the background information on Nudds--- scrutinise his "three statements"---the first implicating Hanratty ,the second totally contradicting everything he said in his first statement, the second implicating Alphon ,the third back to implicating Hanratty etc ;read up about Langdale and his history as a sadist and torturer,a long term prisoner l and a police informer.
Then read up on the flawed police evidence. Read up about the statements that were "tampered with" ,statements Hanratty made when he was being questioned-the alterations of which appeared to make out he was lying; The withheld statements by the Redbridge witnesses -these are by no means all but they are a good beginning.
Norma .

[Natalie Severn]

I have just been reading up on Usher,the man Hanratty referred to as having a "withered hand".His hand was missing two fingers.
The more I read Paul Foot about the statements of Mr Usher ,in the Lime St left luggage office,who recognised his photo and remembered the name "Hanratty" as "Ratty", the more it seems to have been a regrettable decision by the defence not to call him as a witness.