A6 Rebooted

[Victor]

I think several " assumptions" are being made here.

Hi Norma,

Obviously we have to make some assumptions, for example, Hanratty (even though he had a diagnosis of "mentally deficient") is assumed to be capable of doing most of the things an average person could, such as finding his way to a house that he had been to before, which seems pretty reasonable. Obviously if he had been there several times, or was familiar with the area then this would increase the likelihood.

Don"t forget Hanratty arrived in Rhyl by coach

Did he? Didn't he hitch or steal a car or similar? Unless you are talking about the bus ride from Liverpool in August which is doubtful to ever have happened.

KR,
Vic.

[Natalie Severn]

Oh dear Vic you don't need to talk ageist or sexist stuff to explain any of this!Just stay with the information about the topography of Rhyl and try to distance yourself from preconceived notions and assumptions about H. Try to be rigorous about envisaging what the optic nerves would record during his taxi ride the previous night with Terry Evans and his next day run for it would have impressed on his memory! Don't forget either that he hitched out of Rhyl next morning so he may even have hitched up Vale road rather than turned left at Vale bridge!

[Victor]

Oh dear Vic you don't need to talk ageist or sexist stuff to explain any of this!

I deliberately didn't stray into ageism or sexism and stuck with the fact that generally young males such as Jim have a better sense of direction than others. I even qualified it with "would tend to".

Try to be rigorous about envisaging what the optic nerves would record during his taxi ride the previous night with Terry Evans and his next day run for it would have impressed on his memory!

There's no way of knowing for certain what he saw and what he took in, and describing his exit as a "run for it" is biased speculation, why not the other extreme - he had the opportunity to leisurely stroll out of Rhyl taking in full details of his surroundings especially with new shoes to break in.

KR,
Vic.

[Limehouse]

Hi Norma,

Interesting anecdote but of limited significance because other people can offer examples of exactly the opposite. There are two significant differences between yourself and Hanratty: Your age, and your gender. Both of these factors would tend to put you at a disadvantage compared to Jim in this circumstance.

KR,
Vic.

What a cart load of chauvanistic clap trap! Do you have a scientific basis for such conclusions?

I tell what is a pretty good bet. Hanratty was not 'mentally deficient' but almost certainly dyslexic. If you examine the words that his lawyer asked him to spell and Hanratty's responses - he displays almost classic characteristics of dyslexia. Of course - learning difficulties such as this would have been less recognised in those days.

People with dyslexia also tend to have poor orientation - especially if the dyslexic person also has dyspraxia. They have a poor sense of direction and have difficulties judging this such as distance and speed and directions. Interstingly - they also have a poor sense of timing which might account for Hanratty's uncertainty about the time he arrived in Rhyl and which train he took to Liverpool. This would be especially significant if the railway and bus service was using the 24 hour clock so that 1pm becomes 13.00.

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Norma,

Obviously we have to make some assumptions, for example, Hanratty (even though he had a diagnosis of "mentally deficient") is assumed to be capable of doing most of the things an average person could, such as finding his way to a house that he had been to before, which seems pretty reasonable.
KR,
Vic.

but Vic,why on earth are you raking up that old fart"s neanderthal diagnosis?
I was talking about the complex topography of the road layout either side of the railway bridge in Rhyl ,together with the labyrinth of industrial alleyways that litter either side of Marsh Road from which Gwynfryn Avenue leads off into an almost square shaped street .I was suggesting that a non -local person or a Londoner such as Hanratty -unfamiliar with both the Welsh name "Gwynfryn" and the peculiar layout of Gwynfryn Avenue might find it a bit difficult to locate if they had never been there on foot before.Its also a long way from the centre of Rhyl.
Have you read the discussions Vic, about the Ripper needing to have been a local man to know the squares and alleyways of Whitechapel?Well parts of Rhyl similarly require local knowledge to find and in my view Marsh Road with its numerous alleyways is one of them.

[Derrick]

What a cart load of chauvanistic clap trap! Do you have a scientific basis for such conclusions?......

Hi Julie

I totally agree.

The timings in the alibi are probably wrong from Hanratty and those who supported it. That is not surprising to anyone who had to remember things over a month or 6 months previously.

To try to remember exact timings of where one went, for even the most attentive person, is difficult a week or so later. But after a month when it meant nothing in one's general life is very difficult. Hanratty was not living at any one fixed abode for most of the period before and after the time of the A6 murder, so it makes sense that one place just fades away and the next becomes more vivid.

Yet Hanratty in his alibi mentions things that were backed up and backed up on the days he said he was in Liverpool and Rhyl. The asking for Tarleton Road in Liverpool and Mrs Walkers big dog is something that would take a lot of guessing if one is lying.

Derrick

[Natalie Severn]

Thanks Julie! Our posts crossed but you are absolutely spot on about H"s learning difficulties.I am also convinced that his evacuation at the age of 6 years right at the very moment of "reading readiness" may have had a very deleterious effect.But equally, many children have reading difficulties due to faulty auditory discrimination simply as a result of "glue ear" ---it causes intermittent hearing loss and can seriously impede reading and writing acquisition.

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Julie

I totally agree.

The timings in the alibi are probably wrong from Hanratty and those who supported it. That is not surprising to anyone who had to remember things over a month or 6 months previously.

To try to remember exact timings of where one went, for even the most attentive person, is difficult a week or so later. But after a month when it meant nothing in one's general life is very difficult. Hanratty was not living at any one fixed abode for most of the period before and after the time of the A6 murder, so it makes sense that one place just fades away and the next becomes more vivid.

Yet Hanratty in his alibi mentions things that were backed up and backed up on the days he said he was in Liverpool and Rhyl. The asking for Tarleton Road in Liverpool and Mrs Walkers big dog is something that would take a lot of guessing if one is lying.

Derrick

Absolutely Derrick. Also I was quite surprised to read that scribbled on a rough piece of paper in the lawyer"s notes made while Hanratty talked in his cell about the Rhyl visit, was " left little leather hyde case .Landlady about 50 like my mother ----"said I could leave my case,I will pick it up later"

Here in Hanratty"s own words is the explanation for Mrs Walker,Mrs Vincent, Mrs Davies and Mr Larman saying the young man had no case with him!
He remembered a great deal in fact that tallied with what we know people saw and we now know was there!

[babybird67]

and so we are back to...

having to acknowledge that an 'alibi' is not an alibi unless the timings match up.

They don't.

Hanratty had no alibi.

[Limehouse]

having to acknowledge that an 'alibi' is not an alibi unless the timings match up.

They don't.

Hanratty had no alibi.

Alphon's alibi was not exactly rock solid.

[Natalie Severn]

having to acknowledge that an 'alibi' is not an alibi unless the timings match up.
They don't.
Hanratty had no alibi.

Hi Jen,
Even Charlie Jones who sold papers each day thought the Liverpool to Rhyl Crosville bus arrived "about 7 or 8 pm"!He stood selling papers everyday just outside the Rhyl bus depot in Kinmel Street and stood there partly in order to catch those getting off this once a day Liverpool to Rhyl 8.17 pm bus .
The most accurate "clock" is the time the sun sets ,which,on August 22nd 1961 was just before 8.30 pm.Lighting up time is about 30 mins after so she saw him after 9 pm.
So if we forget about the time Margaret Walker "thought" it was,ie 7.30 pm and concentrate instead on how she told the solicitor she "fixed the time" ,we find she told him she told him it was because :"It was getting dark" and "the street lights were lit"[ie approx. 30 mins after sunset].
Well it certainly was not getting dark at 7.30. ---nor were the street lights lit--- so Mrs Walker was out in her timing and must have seen the young man 30 mins after 8.30---around 9 pm!

[babybird67]

so...

if we fiddle with all the evidence and just change all the times, they all magically fit and as if by magic an alibi appears?


Sorry. I don't want the justice system based on a system of establishing criminals might have been elsewhere at 'maybe' times.

None of them identified Hanratty in a line-up. Nearly every single one of them said they couldnt be sure it was him.

There is no Rhyl alibi just like there was no Liverpool alibi. Hanratty's sperm shows that.

[Natalie Severn]

if we fiddle with all the evidence and just change all the times, they all magically fit and as if by magic an alibi appears?


Sorry. I don't want the justice system based on a system of establishing criminals might have been elsewhere at 'maybe' times.

None of them identified Hanratty in a line-up. Nearly every single one of them said they couldnt be sure it was him.

There is no Rhyl alibi just like there was no Liverpool alibi. Hanratty's sperm shows that.

Yet you accept without hesitation evidence that was "fiddled with" , evidence that was suppressed , a flawed police operation ,the obscenity of abused judicial procedures ?The case against Hanratty was painfully slim and even what there was was mostly concocted by gangsters.
I trust none of the evidence about "sperm" that was kept in the drawer of a police station for 40 years--- more grotesquery...more smoke and mirrors!

[Victor]

What a cart load of chauvanistic clap trap! Do you have a scientific basis for such conclusions?

Hi Julie,

Yes. See http://www.cerebromente.org.br/n11/m...ro-homens.html
The "father" of sociobiology, Edward O. Wilson, of Harvard University (10), said that human females tend to be higher than males in empathy, verbal skills, social skills and security-seeking, among other things, while men tend to be higher in independence, dominance, spatial and mathematical skills, rank-related aggression, and other characteristics.

Hanratty was not 'mentally deficient' but almost certainly dyslexic.

Quite possibly but do you have a medical basis for making such a claim? There is a medical diagnosis saying "mentally deficient" from a doctor who actually examined him. There are many other alternatives such as lack of interest in school, and of course when Jim fell behind then things would only get worse for him as the school system wasn't as inclusive in those days.

KR,
Vic.

[Victor]

The timings in the alibi are probably wrong from Hanratty and those who supported it. That is not surprising to anyone who had to remember things over a month or 6 months previously.

Hi Derrick,

If you are into selective fiddling with their statements then why just stop at timing? Why not doubt their identifications too?

Yet Hanratty in his alibi mentions things that were backed up and backed up on the days he said he was in Liverpool and Rhyl. The asking for Tarleton Road in Liverpool and Mrs Walkers big dog is something that would take a lot of guessing if one is lying.

Really? A lot of guessing that one of the houses he allegedly visitied had a dog? Pull the other one.

KR,
Vic.