A6 Rebooted

[Derrick]

Frankly, sweetie-pie, I couldn't care less one way or the other, because the chances of another appeal are bleaker than those of income-tax being abolished. Neither could I care less who might fund this almost-certainly mythical new appeal - if anyone has that kind of lolly to throw around on a dead-cert waste of time, then good for him, her, or them.

But at least this has given us a new subject to argue about, a welcome break from the never-ending repeats of groundless conjecture from the JH Fan Club.

Graham

Hi Graham
Ohhh you are so camp petal.

You came across there as Clark Gable in Gone With The Wind. Frankly My Dear and all that...

Go on then and kick us off with something to argue about rather than just sniping you and YOUR CAMP'S boring disapproval from the bleachers.

Derrick

[RonIpstone]

Frankly, sweetie-pie, I couldn't care less one way or the other, because the chances of another appeal are bleaker than those of income-tax being abolished. Neither could I care less who might fund this almost-certainly mythical new appeal - if anyone has that kind of lolly to throw around on a dead-cert waste of time, then good for him, her, or them.

But at least this has given us a new subject to argue about, a welcome break from the never-ending repeats of groundless conjecture from the JH Fan Club.

Graham

Hello Graham,

I don't think that you can appeal at will and as often as you like. Jim had a right of appeal against his conviction which he exercised unsuccessfully in 1962. The second appeal, heard in 2002, was on referral by the Criminal Cases Review Commission, an independent body set up by the Criminal Appeal Act 1995. The Commission can refer any conviction on indictment to the Court of Appeal (section 9) but should only do so if there is a real possibility that conviction would not be upheld (section 13).


On two occasions the Court of Appeal has said that Jim's trial was fair. On the last occasion the court said it should not be bothered with such old cases. I do not think the case of James Hanratty will be referred again no matter how insistent be the pleas emanating from the Hanratty Appreciation Society. Ingrams and Bindman must know this, so why did they peddle the nonsense that they did a couple of months ago on the Today programme?

Ron

[RonIpstone]

Hi Ron
The CACD only came to the conclusion of your 1st item because they accepted that the (2nd item) DNA evidence proved Hanratty's guilt beyond a reasonable doubt and therefore supported Valerie Stories identification and nothing more.

Hi Derrick,

Not as I read it. The Court said at paragraph 105 as follows:

105. Applying this reasoning we came to the conclusion that the DNA evidence on this appeal is evidence which we are entitled to admit under section 23. Furthermore we conclude that in our discretion we should admit the evidence while recognising:
(1) that its weight, if any, will depend on whether the appellant may be right that the explanation for the DNA findings is contamination.
(2) that if the appellant is able to show that because of lack of disclosure or the misdirections in the summing up the trial was still fatally flawed the DNA evidence will not rescue the conviction.

Ron

[babybird67]

hasn't the contention...

that the trial was flawed been addressed in his other appeals? It didn't succeed then, its extremely unlikely it's going to succeed now.

[Graham]

Hello Graham,

I don't think that you can appeal at will and as often as you like. Jim had a right of appeal against his conviction which he exercised unsuccessfully in 1962. The second appeal, heard in 2002, was on referral by the Criminal Cases Review Commission, an independent body set up by the Criminal Appeal Act 1995. The Commission can refer any conviction on indictment to the Court of Appeal (section 9) but should only do so if there is a real possibility that conviction would not be upheld (section 13).


On two occasions the Court of Appeal has said that Jim's trial was fair. On the last occasion the court said it should not be bothered with such old cases. I do not think the case of James Hanratty will be referred again no matter how insistent be the pleas emanating from the Hanratty Appreciation Society. Ingrams and Bindman must know this, so why did they peddle the nonsense that they did a couple of months ago on the Today programme?

Ron

Hi Ron,

I was implying that there is little or zero chance of another appeal being allowed at all, not that a new appeal had little or zero chance of success.
I too find it very strange that Ingrams gave the distinct impression that a new appeal was imminent. Unfair on the Hanratty family too, I'd suggest.

I agree fully with what you say about the possibilities of another appeal being granted.

Graham

[RonIpstone]

Hi Ron,


I too find it very strange that Ingrams gave the distinct impression that a new appeal was imminent. Unfair on the Hanratty family too, I'd suggest.

Hello Graham,

Unfair on Valerie Storie and the Gregsten children as well.


Ron

[jimarilyn]

Hi Graham
Go on then and kick us off with something to argue about rather than just sniping you and YOUR CAMP'S boring disapproval from the bleachers.
Derrick

You'll have an interminably long wait, alas, Derrick.
I don't think there's an original thought in their heads.


Just to give you some idea of the minds of the Establishment Appreciation Society the following item was written by one of their members (no prizes for guessing who) almost 4 years ago on another internet forum.....

Of all the venerable institutions which this country possesses, my top three for abolition on the grounds that they have passed their respective usefulnesses, are in first place the NHS, second the railways and third the BBC. The NHS belongs to the pre-war generation of rickets etc, the railways belongs to the 19 th century not the 21st, and the BBC belongs to a communist state. Things from the past that should be brought back are hanging and corporal punishment. With the money saved from the NHS we could establish some decent sized armed forces, to assist our American allies in the policing of this dangerous world or ours.

PS Be careful what you say about a certain 6'4" braggart, he's likely to lash out with a sarcastic tirade.

[Limehouse]

Hi Jim

Thanks for that quote. That's really scary. It makes my blood run cold. I had no idea we were up against such views. I am truly shocked.

Julie

[jimarilyn]

Hi Jim

Thanks for that quote. That's really scary. It makes my blood run cold. I had no idea we were up against such views. I am truly shocked.

Julie

It is scary, Julie. Seems like we're up against a flog'em and hang'em high mentality.

Frank Evans we abolished hanging once and for good in the 60's. I was very surprised to read a couple of years ago that Valerie Storie was still in favour of capital punishment.

[Limehouse]

It is scary, Julie. Seems like we're up against a flog'em and hang'em high mentality.

Frank Evans we abolished hanging once and for good in the 60's. I was very surprised to read a couple of years ago that Valerie Storie was still in favour of capital punishment.

Well I don't personally support capital punishment but I would excuse VS for supporting it.

I can hardly believe we tolerated such a barbaric form of capital punishment as hanging for so long. It's shocking to me to think that in my lifetime (early lifetime of course) we were still hanging people - admittedly murderers - but people nevertheless.

As Joan Baez sang:

Show me the prison, show me the jail
Show me the prisoner, whose life has gone stale
And I'll show you, young man,
With so many reasons why
there but for fortune, go you or I....

[jimarilyn]

As Joan Baez sang:

Show me the prison, show me the jail
Show me the prisoner, whose life has gone stale
And I'll show you, young man,
With so many reasons why
there but for fortune, go you or I....

A truly great song by one of my all time favourite female singers, Julie. Such a beautiful, pure voice. Did you happen to catch an early [1962] BBC concert of hers which was re-broadcast on BBC 4 about a year or so ago ? It was brilliant and she was only 21 at the time too. About three years before she recorded the timeless and unforgettable "We shall overcome."

We shall overcome.

[Limehouse]

A truly great song by one of my all time favourite female singers, Julie. Such a beautiful, pure voice. Did you happen to catch an early [1962] BBC concert of hers which was re-broadcast on BBC 4 about a year or so ago ? It was brilliant and she was only 21 at the time too. About three years before she recorded the timeless and unforgettable "We shall overcome."

We shall overcome.

Hi Jim

Yes - we have seen a lot of those music programmes on BB4. Better still - I have seen Joan Baez live at the Glastonbuiry festival in 1984. I have always loved her music - ever since I can remember. She certainly has a most beautiful voice and a beautiful spirit too.

[Natalie Severn]

Yes, there were some great singers and songs .Personally I like "Working Class Hero" and "Imagine" of Lennon"s best of all.But Dylan still reigns supreme for me in terms of all round -everything---especially making such an art of the words and the music..

[Natalie Severn]

As soon as your born they make you feel small,
By giving you no time instead of it all,
Till the pain is so big you feel nothing at all,
A working class hero is something to be,
A working class hero is something to be.
They hurt you at home and they hit you at school,
They hate you if you're clever and they despise a fool,
Till you're so ******* crazy you can't follow their rules,
A working class hero is something to be,
A working class hero is something to be.
When they've tortured and scared you for twenty odd years,
Then they expect you to pick a career,
When you can't really function you're so full of fear,
A working class hero is something to be,
A working class hero is something to be.
Keep you doped with religion and sex and TV,
And you think you're so clever and classless and free,
But you're still ******* peasents as far as I can see,
A working class hero is something to be,
A working class hero is something to be.
There's room at the top they are telling you still,
But first you must learn how to smile as you kill,
If you want to be like the folks on the hill,
A working class hero is something to be.
A working class hero is something to be.
If you want to be a hero well just follow me,
If you want to be a hero well just follow me.

Bravo to John!

[RonIpstone]

Jim Hanratty, a working class hero?