A6 Rebooted

[Derrick]

If the gun was put on the bus at 6.10 am by the man Pamela Patt saw, who bore too close a resemblance to Hanratty for Woffinden to mention, then he had plenty of time to get to Liverpool.

Really?

Can you give us a reference for your assertion.

[Derrick]

Hi Nick

I think I may have found your source and please correct me if I'm wrong.

Paragraphs 33, 158 and 160-162 of the 2002 CA ruling.

I don't think that that is a close resemblance to Hanratty. At that time Hanratty's hair was certainly not mousy coloured. It was dark and streaky looking through it having been dyed black some weeks earlier.

Besides, Hanratty always prided himself on his neat appearance.

Del

[caz]

I believe that this was planned in advance and if Hanratty was the A6 murderer then he could not have been working alone, therefore there had to a conspiracy of sorts because he would not have been able to send the telegram from Liverpool and put the gun on the bus on the Thursday.

If the gun was put on the bus at 6.10 am by the man Pamela Patt saw, who bore too close a resemblance to Hanratty for Woffinden to mention, then he had plenty of time to get to Liverpool.

Indeed Nick, and what Del says doesn't make a lot of sense anyway because it was accepted that Hanratty did send the telegram, so his defence would hardly have stood by and let him hang if he couldn't have done both in the time available to him.

The other members of a conspiracy could not have afforded for Hanratty to be arrested for fear that the hangman would have had a little more work to do, if Hanratty turned Queens evidence.

I agree that if someone other than Hanratty put the gun on the bus, there was arguably a conspiracy of sorts. But if one of the members was Dixie France (and the used snot rag tells us it had to be someone with close Hanratty connections), it would have been risky whether Hanratty was involved or not. He was arrested, and he would have guessed he was being set up - and probably by whom - as soon as he learned where the murder weapon was found and that he was being associated with it because France had kindly informed the police that it was his usual hiding place for unwanted end products of crime. A guilty Hanratty would have had a lot more reason to keep quiet about this than an innocent one, on trial for his life and realising he had been framed.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

Besides, Hanratty always prided himself on his neat appearance.

What, even in the wake of his prolonged shooting, raping and driving away experience, desperate to dispose of the murder weapon and put himself as far away as physically possible from it?

I'd be very surprised if anyone could keep up appearances in those circumstances. But good on Hanratty. At least he prided himself on looking neat most of the time, even if he was a vile specimen below the surface.

Love,

Caz
X

[NickB]

Woffinden said: "In the first journey to Kilburn the passengers were all regular ones ...” and then cuts off “with one exception” and the description of the man. This gives the misleading impression that they were all regulars. Why not give us the full information and let us decide for ourselves how similar the description of the man was to Hanratty?

It is a similar situation with the man Hanratty claimed to have seen on the train to Liverpool on 22-Aug. In his public appeal Kleinman described him as “the man with the gold cuff links initialled ‘E’”. Woffinden recounts that Hanratty stole gold cufflinks with the initial ‘E’ on 12-Aug, but when he gets to the man on the train’s cufflinks he cuts off the description just before mention of the initial ‘E’ - as if the coincidence would be too much of a giveaway that the man was invented.

[caz]

I think the defence case was that he did send the telegram but did not put the gun on the bus.

I can imagine it would have been. But the latter was evidently something the defence could not substantiate, otherwise the jury might have accepted there was doubt about Hanratty being the gunman as well as the telegram originator.

Love,

Caz
X

[NickB]

Caz - I realised what you were getting at just after posting that comment - and so deleted it.

[caz]

Yes Nick, no worries.

Love,

Caz
X

[Derrick]

...what Del says doesn't make a lot of sense anyway because it was accepted that Hanratty did send the telegram, so his defence would hardly have stood by and let him hang if he couldn't have done both in the time available to him.

Hi Caz

No offence taken I'm sure!

From paragraph 158 of the 2002 CA ruling concerning Pamela Patt's statement:-

The eleventh ground of appeal is that neither her statement nor her name and address were disclosed.

Your argument makes less sense as Ms Patt's involvement was withheld. How could Sherrard have made much out of something that to all intents and purposes didn't exist as far as he was aware?

Del

[Spitfire]

I think that by the time the banks, post offices and building society branches had closed on the afternoon 22 August 1961, Hanratty had abandoned his idea of a conventional stick-up and had moved away from the conurbation which he had selected for his robbery. He therefore had a few hours in which to get from there to Dorney Reach which although isolated is but a couple of miles from Taplow railway station from which towns such as Reading, Maidenhead and Slough would be but a short train journey.

Once Hanratty had carried out his dastardly deeds he would need to get back to London where he could melt away into the crowds of the metropolis. Then he may well have acquired lodgings, similar to the Vienna, for Wednesday night. On the following day he would then have disposed of the gun on the bus and then travelled to Liverpool, from where he would send his telegram before returning the following day.

[Kerry1983]

Hi there, I don't know if i'm posting in the right place so please correct me if i'm not.
I currently own Ingledene on Kinmel Street in Rhyl and have done for the past 9 years, i came across these forums a couple of weeks ago and just thought i would make myself known and see if i can be of any help at all.

Thanks,
Kerry.

[NickB]

Hi Kerry!

I assume you have seen the thread ‘scan of Hanratty statement re Rhyl alibi’ which contains Hanratty’s description of the guest house he claimed to have stayed in. It would be interesting to know if you think the description fits Ingeldene.

Would there have been a more obvious way of identifying it? For example: “It is opposite the big Windsor Hotel.”

[Sherlock Houses]

I think that by the time the banks, post offices and building society branches had closed on the afternoon 22 August 1961, Hanratty had abandoned his idea of a conventional stick-up and had moved away from the conurbation which he had selected for his robbery. He therefore had a few hours in which to get from there to Dorney Reach which although isolated is but a couple of miles from Taplow railway station from which towns such as Reading, Maidenhead and Slough would be but a short train journey.

Once Hanratty had carried out his dastardly deeds he would need to get back to London where he could melt away into the crowds of the metropolis. Then he may well have acquired lodgings, similar to the Vienna, for Wednesday night. On the following day he would then have disposed of the gun on the bus and then travelled to Liverpool, from where he would send his telegram before returning the following day.

LOL. I see comic relief day has come a day or two early judging by the content of some recent posts.

Nice to see some anti-Hanratty posters have a good sense of the ridiculous.

[Kerry1983]

Hi Nick,
I've had a quick read through a couple of things but haven't looked at everything in any detail yet, i was only approved as a member today.
It is indeed opposite the Windsor but the houses either side of mine also are. Do you mean a better way of identifying the actual location?

[Graham]

Hi Kerry,

welcome to the A6 Thread. Two or three times over the years I've visited Rhyl to 'soak up the atmos', even though I'm convinced of James Hanratty's guilt and don't believe he stayed at Ingledene at the critical time. However, he was certainly in Rhyl a few weeks prior to the crime, and as you doubtless know he stayed at the house of Terry Evans.

By the way, a small point, but am I correct in thinking that the house-numbers in Kinmel Street have been changed since 1961?

Graham