A6 Rebooted

[Spitfire]

Hi all,

I have found the post on which I posted my views concerning the cartridges. It was posted for a second time on post 128 of the 'scene of crime and 2nd appeal' thread:




As you can imagine, I feel strongly that these cartridge cases were planted.

Your feeling is based on an erroneous assumption that the cartridge cases are ejected from the murder gun immediately after firing. They are not. They remain in the revolver until it is broken. It was perfectly feasible for the test firing to have taken place in Epping Forest and the gun taken back to the hotel room to be reloaded. It would only be then that the cartridge cases would come out of the gun.

[Sherlock Houses]

A very penetrating, well expressed and to the point post, Limehouse. It gets to the heart of the matter.
I'm absolutely convinced beyond any doubt that those two empty cartridge cases were planted on that chair by person/persons unknown.
If one accepts the proposition that they were planted at some time subsequent to the murder one must surely ask for what reason ?
The most logical reason for this would have to have been to cast suspicion upon a known occupant of room 24 and thereby link that person with the
murder weapon found so conveniently and so soon after the A6 murder.
Incidentally has there ever been a murder gun in the history of crime found as quickly as this one was ?

[Spitfire]

A very penetrating, well expressed and to the point post, Limehouse. It gets to the heart of the matter.
I'm absolutely convinced beyond any doubt that those two empty cartridge cases were planted on that chair by person/persons unknown.
If one accepts the proposition that they were planted at some time subsequent to the murder one must surely ask for what reason ?
The most logical reason for this would have to have been to cast suspicion upon a known occupant of room 24 and thereby link that person with the
murder weapon found so conveniently and so soon after the A6 murder.
Incidentally has there ever been a murder gun in the history of crime found as quickly as this one was ?

That's right ignore the facts.

The gun used in the murder of JFK was found on the same day.

[Sherlock Houses]

That's right ignore the facts.

The gun used in the murder of JFK was found on the same day.

As I don't reside in the U.s.a I wasn't referring to that country.

[NickB]

If they were planted then it must have been an inside job, by someone who knew which particular bed Ryan had slept in. This might suggest Nudds – but if he had been paid to incriminate Ryan he would not then make a statement incriminating Durrant.

Then the plan relies on so many dependencies:
1) That Crocker would discover them before another resident used that bed
2) That Crocker would report it to the police
3) That the police would discover the identity of J Ryan
4) That there would be enough corroborating evidence

[Spitfire]

As I don't reside in the U.s.a I wasn't referring to that country.

I do beg your pardon.

In that case, in the whole history of crime near where Sherlock Houses lives, no murder gun has been ever found so quickly.

[Limehouse]

Your feeling is based on an erroneous assumption that the cartridge cases are ejected from the murder gun immediately after firing. They are not. They remain in the revolver until it is broken. It was perfectly feasible for the test firing to have taken place in Epping Forest and the gun taken back to the hotel room to be reloaded. It would only be then that the cartridge cases would come out of the gun.

Epping Forest? That's miles away from the hotel! Why would the gunman go all the way out to Epping Forest and then all the way back to the hotel? What transport would he have used?

My assumption was not erroneous - it was based on research I carried out but I can't find the source now.

Could you explain what you mean by the gun being broken please? Do you mean re-loaded?

[Limehouse]

A very penetrating, well expressed and to the point post, Limehouse. It gets to the heart of the matter.
I'm absolutely convinced beyond any doubt that those two empty cartridge cases were planted on that chair by person/persons unknown.
If one accepts the proposition that they were planted at some time subsequent to the murder one must surely ask for what reason ?
The most logical reason for this would have to have been to cast suspicion upon a known occupant of room 24 and thereby link that person with the
murder weapon found so conveniently and so soon after the A6 murder.
Incidentally has there ever been a murder gun in the history of crime found as quickly as this one was ?

Thanks Sherlock.

[Limehouse]

If they were planted then it must have been an inside job, by someone who knew which particular bed Ryan had slept in. This might suggest Nudds – but if he had been paid to incriminate Ryan he would not then make a statement incriminating Durrant.

Then the plan relies on so many dependencies:
1) That Crocker would discover them before another resident used that bed
2) That Crocker would report it to the police
3) That the police would discover the identity of J Ryan
4) That there would be enough corroborating evidence

Hi Nick,

I don't think it necessarily had to be an inside job. It doesn't make any difference which bed Ryan slept in - the cartridges could have been left anywhere and they would have been accepted as evidence - as they were in fact. If the jury can believe they sat there on that chair for three weeks without being discovered, they would have also accepted them being found elsewhere in the room, I think.

I'll return to your points shortly. Have some work to do.

[Sherlock Houses]

I do beg your pardon.

Not to worry old chap, I'll forgive you this time.

In that case, in the whole history of crime near where Sherlock Houses lives, no murder gun has been ever found so quickly.

I live in Ingleland [not too far from Ingledene] a country near Whales.

[Spitfire]

Epping Forest? That's miles away from the hotel! Why would the gunman go all the way out to Epping Forest and then all the way back to the hotel? What transport would he have used?

My assumption was not erroneous - it was based on research I carried out but I can't find the source now.

Could you explain what you mean by the gun being broken please? Do you mean re-loaded?

The above shows the gun broken for loading.

The spent cartridges stay in the chambers from being fired until the gun is broken.

Epping Forest was an example where a gun could be fired. It could have been anywhere. The point is wherever the gun was fired the cartridges would remain in it until the gun was broken.

[NickB]

So the simplest explanation is that Hanratty was reloading the gun and left two of the cartridge cases behind by mistake.

Traditionally, Nudds second statement provided the alternative explanation: they were left there by Alphon when he was in that exact position for a time on 22nd August.
“When he entered room No. 24, Durrant chose the single bed, which is in the alcove immediately to the left of the door as one enters the room, and he put his suitcase on the armchair which is at the foot of the bed ...”

For this reason, how or why they were planted there to implicate an as yet unidentified Ryan has never been properly explored.

[Graham]

Yes Nick, I agree with you (for what that's worth....!)

I think it should be remembered that The Vienna was little more than a doss-house, to which shady businessmen took their lady 'friends', and from what I understand also had something of a reputation as a "meeting place" for gay men. It was NOT, by any description, a respectable hotel as we would understand the meaning of the word in 2014. The beds may have been changed fairly regularly, but I would honestly doubt if The Vienna's level of hygiene and house-keeping went so far as hoovering the floors, dusting, cleaning up, and so forth, on anything like a regular basis. Those cartridge cases could have stayed undiscovered for months had not Mr Crocker made his inspection. Which, incidentally, was to investigate missing cash at The Vienna, and the first thing he did was to sack Nudds and Snell, although it seems he allowed them to stay one more night before they left. Crocker recalled the police contacting The Vienna to check the alibi of a man who claimed he'd stayed there on the night of 22 August, and on the strength of this he called the police to report the discovery of the cases, which were quickly shown to have been fired by the murder weapon.

The only previous link that Acott had to The Vienna was Alphon's statement that he had stayed there on the night of 22 August, so instantly Alphon became Acott's No 1 suspect. When his alibi was proved, Acott had somewhat reluctantly to look elsewhere, and that's how the name Ryan came into the picture, following a routine check on who had been at The Vienna on the 22nd, and in particular who if anyone had slept in Room 24. Had those cases stayed hidden over the following weeks or months, then it is highly possible that the name Ryan might never have been linked to the A6 crime.

Acott initially thought it likely that the murderer had returned to The Vienna after the crime, where he re-loaded his gun and accidentally let the two cases fall onto the chair.

Frankly, I fail to see how the cases could have been deliberately placed at The Vienna to implicate Hanratty....but stranger things have happened.

Apologies for another long post....

Graham

[NickB]

The Alphon explanation also relied upon him leaving behind two cartridge cases by mistake and them surviving the change of bed linen and remaining there for three weeks. If these circumstances were perfectly acceptable to the pro-Hanratty lobby when applied to Alphon, why are they now ridiculous when applied to Hanratty?

[Spitfire]

Just had a quick look at Foot's book and he seems to think that the two cartridge cases had been left behind accidentally by Alphon after the murder.