A6 Rebooted

[moste]

Strong resemblance Pete!
Here's yet another anomaly, A .38 Enfield fired at close range breaks through the bones of the skull through brain tissue and emerges out of the skull on the other side.
On the other hand, a hail of bullets from the same weapon fired at fairly close range, two of which only manage to penetrate Valerie's arm, and lodge just under the skin, requiring only local anesthetic to remove. Very strange.
Apparently there was a line of hits between the shoulder tip and the elbow, four I believe, the fifth bullet entering the neck and doing the serious damage of paralyzing the poor girl.
Also the doctor who claimed the bullets he removed were from a .32 caliber weapon. Fishy

[Derrick]

On 1st September, Det Sgt Long of the City of London Police, Snow Hill, handed in "an number of boxes of .38 ammunition, wrapped in a piece of material".

Do we have an explaination for the items handed in by Det Sgt Long? Are they the same boxes of ammunition handed in on 25th August? Is the piece of material the handkerchief? Why would the City of London Police have these items? Are they even related to the crime or were they sent in because they are the same calibre as the murder weapon?

Hi Pete

I remember seeing somewhere (can't think where though) that this stash was actually discovered by the police down by the banks of the Thames.

If the ordnance hadn't been fired and no fingermarks where gleaned then it would obviously be difficult to judge whether it was originally part of the 36A/A6 murder booty.

HTH
Del

[Sherlock Houses]

Strong resemblance Pete!
Here's yet another anomaly, A .38 Enfield fired at close range breaks through the bones of the skull through brain tissue and emerges out of the skull on the other side.
On the other hand, a hail of bullets from the same weapon fired at fairly close range, two of which only manage to penetrate Valerie's arm, and lodge just under the skin, requiring only local anesthetic to remove. Very strange.
Apparently there was a line of hits between the shoulder tip and the elbow, four I believe, the fifth bullet entering the neck and doing the serious damage of paralyzing the poor girl.
Also the doctor who claimed the bullets he removed were from a .32 caliber weapon. Fishy

It does seem a bit fishy doesn't it Moste ?

I know next to zilch about firearms.

Does anybody know how much recoil/kick there would have been using an Enfield .38 calibre revolver ?
If there was much recoil then I find it a bit puzzling as to how the neat pattern of shots [all in a line] on VS's shoulder were formed, especially considering the fact that the shots were fired in the dark. The gunman would have had to re-aim the gun more or less at the same point after each shot to produce this neat line of hits.
Wouldn't this pattern of shots have been more suggestive of a .32 automatic pistol being used ? But that can't be because we know [or do we ?] that the murder weapon was a .38 revolver. And the authorities would never deceive us would they ? Professor Simpson's assertion [in his book] that the wounds were .32 calibre wounds is surely just a very very careless typo error on his part. Surely ?


And how did the gunman miss with the other volley of shots aimed at her ? According to Valerie they went over her head. Just like much of the so called DNA evidence goes over my head.

Just thinking out loud.

[propatria27]

Hi Pete

I remember seeing somewhere (can't think where though) that this stash was actually discovered by the police down by the banks of the Thames.

If the ordnance hadn't been fired and no fingermarks where gleaned then it would obviously be difficult to judge whether it was originally part of the 36A/A6 murder booty.

HTH
Del

Del, agreed, but I'd like to see the forensic labs conclusions anyway as the similarities are striking. Equally, if the boxes of ammunition found on the bus and by City of London Police were in marked batches, there could be a link.

Pete

[propatria27]

It does seem a bit fishy doesn't it Moste ?

I know next to zilch about firearms.

Does anybody know how much recoil/kick there would have been using an Enfield .38 calibre revolver ?
If there was much recoil then I find it a bit puzzling as to how the neat pattern of shots [all in a line] on VS's shoulder were formed, especially considering the fact that the shots were fired in the dark. The gunman would have had to re-aim the gun more or less at the same point after each shot to produce this neat line of hits.
Wouldn't this pattern of shots have been more suggestive of a .32 automatic pistol being used ? But that can't be because we know [or do we ?] that the murder weapon was a .38 revolver. And the authorities would never deceive us would they ? Professor Simpson's assertion [in his book] that the wounds were .32 calibre wounds is surely just a very very careless typo error on his part. Surely ?


And how did the gunman miss with the other volley of shots aimed at her ? According to Valerie they went over her head. Just like much of the so called DNA evidence goes over my head.

Just thinking out loud.

Here is some information from an earlier thread in 2012 that I posted:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham View Post
First off, has anyone any thoughts or comments regarding my Post 123? It has been suggested to me that if the ballistic finds in the car were indeed bullets and not cartridge cases, then how did one of these end up in the glove pocket after being fired at MG's head?
Graham
Graham, I spent 25 years in the RAF, as a policeman, and carried a weapon, most often an automatic pistol, for much of that time. I would make the point that the muzzle velocity of the weapon depends on the quality of the ammunition and it is my experience that older ammunition deteriorates over time, especially if kept in damp conditions - we don't know about the ammunition found in this case, but I would suggest it wasn't brand new. You may also be interested in this article that describes the effect of .38 calibre ammunition on dead animals and people:

"In British military service from 1922-1963, when replaced by the Browning HP in 9mm, a 200-grain soft lead bullet was used. In tests, the 200-grain slow mover generated 620-fps and delivered 176-foot pounds to its target. It was quoted that "In tests performed on cadavers and live animals, it was found that the lead bullet, being overly long and heavy for its caliber, become unstable after penetrating the target, somewhat increasing target effect. The relatively low velocity allowed all of the energy of the cartridge to be spent inside the human target, rather than penetrating completely." This cartridge, the old 38/200 ball load is still in factory production in India."

It is virtually impossible to tell the trajectory a bullet will take once it hits the human body as there many things that can deflect it, or make it shatter (bone, cartildge etc). Please remember that the bullets that hit MG went through his skull twice, if found inside the car. I believe it is entirely possible for the bullets to have been found in the car.

Pete

[propatria27]

To assist with the firing and loading of a Webley .38 revolver, her is a post I made in 2012 - the link still works

Pete

To help us understand how the Webley .38 revolver is loaded, fired and unloaded, I found this very good film on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VfcU0PoZ8nU&noredirect=1

Note how the weapon is opened, and loaded. This is an expert, in ideal conditions, but it takes him some time to load all 6 rounds. What happend on Deadman's Hill in the dark having already shot 2 people? It may give some idea of the personality of the gunman.

Additionally, see how little kick-back there is with the weapon when fired with one hand and the ease of firing 2 or more rounds quickly.

Finally, see how, when unloaded, all the rounds will fall out together. It would be reasonably easy to catch them all and put them in your pocket, despite the darkness.

Having seen this film and from my own personal experience, I think the gunman had some experience with the weapon and may have practiced with it previously, even if only with a dry run i.e. loading and unloading but not firing the weapon.

Pete

[Graham]

In one of the TV documentaries, Michael Gregsten's son (can't recall which one) said that his father's face had been virtually blown off...and his mother was brought to Deadman's Hill by the police to identify the body [I]in situ[/.

Graham

[moste]

To assist with the firing and loading of a Webley .38 revolver, her is a post I made in 2012 - the link still works

Pete

To help us understand how the Webley .38 revolver is loaded, fired and unloaded, I found this very good film on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VfcU0PoZ8nU&noredirect=1

Note how the weapon is opened, and loaded. This is an expert, in ideal conditions, but it takes him some time to load all 6 rounds. What happend on Deadman's Hill in the dark having already shot 2 people? It may give some idea of the personality of the gunman.

Additionally, see how little kick-back there is with the weapon when fired with one hand and the ease of firing 2 or more rounds quickly.

Finally, see how, when unloaded, all the rounds will fall out together. It would be reasonably easy to catch them all and put them in your pocket, despite the darkness.

Having seen this film and from my own personal experience, I think the gunman had some experience with the weapon and may have practiced with it previously, even if only with a dry run i.e. loading and unloading but not firing the weapon.

Pete

Yes Pete all good stuff to enlighten one of the effects and requirements of this weapon .
I actually offered a piece of film similar to this last year on these threads when discussing the effects of a pistol of this type being discharged, outside of the car ,with a view to demonstrating how it could be possible to have raised people from their slumber up at Oxleys cottages, about 4 or 5 hundred yards to the north on the A6. However I had to concede that I had probably shot myself in the foot.. ETP..Since, as is evident from this youtube footage the report from a .38 isn't loud enough even in the dead of night to concern the shooter.
Further though. The other purpose for my checking the firing of this weapon was to convince myself and anyone else that might be interested, that the gun being fired TWICE at point blank, BY ACCIDENT is ludicrous, too much foot/pound required for that.
No ,the dispatching of M.Gregsten was a classic assassination.
In truth, we know very little about what happened that night,IMHO.

[Spitfire]

It is difficult to agree with the view that the crimes of the night of 22/23 August 1961 were the work of an assassin.

How many assassins take their victims on a lengthy tour of the highways and byways of southern England before completing the assassination?

And the botched job of the attempt to kill Miss Storie clearly indicates that the 'assassin' was not competent at his work.

Hanratty never disclosed what motivated him to commit the crimes of which he was convicted. I suspect that he himself could not rationalise his acts. I don't think Hanratty set out to kill anyone when he hijacked the Morris Minor. He killed Gregsten as he thought Gregsten was going to attempt to disarm him. He tried to kill Miss Storie as he thought his chances of being caught would be lessened without a witness.

[Graham]

Hanratty never disclosed what motivated him to commit the crimes of which he was convicted. I suspect that he himself could not rationalise his acts. I don't think Hanratty set out to kill anyone when he hijacked the Morris Minor. He killed Gregsten as he thought Gregsten was going to attempt to disarm him. He tried to kill Miss Storie as he thought his chances of being caught would be lessened without a witness.

That is absolutely correct, Spitfire. I have long thought that, equipped with his new toy, JH went out feeling ten feet tall and capable of anything - but murder was not in his mind, not in the slightest. It all went horribly wrong.

Sadly, the A6 isn't the only case of seemingly-pointless murder that's occurred during the past few decades, although it's probably the most puzzling.

Graham

[Dupplin Muir]

Spitfire wrote:

It is difficult to agree with the view that the crimes of the night of 22/23 August 1961 were the work of an assassin.

If you mean 'not the work of an experienced killer' then I'd agree with you: a professional hit-man would have been in-and-out in thirty seconds.

However, this doesn't mean that the gunman wasn't there intending to kill Gregsten. A novice killer might well dither about doing the deed, and the attempt to blame MG for his own death is, in my opinion, just the kind of thing a novice might do.

You might also consider the way that MG was allowed out of the car - almost as if the gunman was hoping he'd make a bolt for it, to obviate the need to shoot. It's sad to consider that if Gregsten had run for it, both he and VS would probably have survived, since hitting anything with a pistol beyond about 5 yards is pretty difficult, and it's unlikely the gunman would have shot VS with Gregsten able to raise the alarm.

[propatria27]

Strong resemblance Pete!
Here's yet another anomaly, A .38 Enfield fired at close range breaks through the bones of the skull through brain tissue and emerges out of the skull on the other side.
On the other hand, a hail of bullets from the same weapon fired at fairly close range, two of which only manage to penetrate Valerie's arm, and lodge just under the skin, requiring only local anesthetic to remove. Very strange.
Apparently there was a line of hits between the shoulder tip and the elbow, four I believe, the fifth bullet entering the neck and doing the serious damage of paralyzing the poor girl.
Also the doctor who claimed the bullets he removed were from a .32 caliber weapon. Fishy

Much depends on the quality of the ammunition used, as I stated earlier, but there is also the possibility that the bullets just under the surface may have been ricochets from the ground close by, which would slow an already slow bullet even more,

Pete

[moste]

Spitfire wrote:



If you mean 'not the work of an experienced killer' then I'd agree with you: a professional hit-man would have been in-and-out in thirty seconds.

However, this doesn't mean that the gunman wasn't there intending to kill Gregsten. A novice killer might well dither about doing the deed, and the attempt to blame MG for his own death is, in my opinion, just the kind of thing a novice might do.

You might also consider the way that MG was allowed out of the car - almost as if the gunman was hoping he'd make a bolt for it, to obviate the need to shoot. It's sad to consider that if Gregsten had run for it, both he and VS would probably have survived, since hitting anything with a pistol beyond about 5 yards is pretty difficult, and it's unlikely the gunman would have shot VS with Gregsten able to raise the alarm.

Interesting,what might have happened had MG made a bolt for it.
Also,was it Lord russell of Liverpool,hypothesizing, what if Gregston drove onto the filling station forecourt and crashes into the kiosk or pumps or what have you ?
The gunman is very unlikely to reason,"Oh Oh!I'd better make a run for it,but first I must shoot HIM in the head.
Also how about the opportunity of VS making a break for it when getting out of the front and into the back seat?

[Derrick]

Much depends on the quality of the ammunition used, as I stated earlier, but there is also the possibility that the bullets just under the surface may have been ricochets from the ground close by, which would slow an already slow bullet even more,

Pete

Hi Pete

In an article from the Wall Street Journal from July 2013 by Jack Nicas (Google Jack Nicas ballistics) it is obvious that, beside DNA evidence, no other so-called forensic discipline, including ballistics, can be regarding as having a sound scientific basis and that experts in these fields have consistently overstated the merits of such evidence.

I have always been suspicious of the ballistics evidence in this case and don't believe that it has been given the critical attention it really deserves by writers and documentary makers.

Del

A caveat is is that DNA evidence is only considered to be scientifically robust when carried out according to strict guidelines for operational procedures. That does not cover LCN which has no such guidelines.

[Derrick]

In one of the TV documentaries, Michael Gregsten's son (can't recall which one) said that his father's face had been virtually blown off...and his mother was brought to Deadman's Hill by the police to identify the body [i]in situ[/.

Graham

I am not quite sure what point you are trying make here.

Anthony Gregsten is the son you are trying to remember and he said what you have mentioned on the BBC Horizon programme in 2002. As he was only two years old at the time his recollections of the way in which his father died can only be through accounts that he has gleaned long since then.

Also it was well reported in the press at the time that Janet Gregsten was called to identify her husbands body on Deadman's Hill.

What are you you getting at Graham?

Del