A6 Rebooted

[NickB]

Portman Square was quite some distance from Euston, but - guess what? - very much closer to Paddington.

There are plenty of hotels around Euston, so it does suggest he did not ask to be taken to one near there.

Another reason for not believing he was on the Euston-Liverpool train is his claim of seeing what Kleinman described as “the man with the gold cuff links initialled ‘E’”. (post 1794 – page 180)

[Graham]

Hi Nick,

Taverne says he was one of the few MPs who signed a commons motion calling for a posthumous pardon for Hanratty, and was disappointed when this was rejected by the government.
Then when he became a Home Office minister he asked to examine the files.
“Much to my dismay, after study of the documents I concluded that the evidence that Hanratty was guilty was overwhelming.”

As I recall the situation, Dick Taverne supported a public inquiry into the A6 Case; I can't remember him actually calling for a posthumous pardon for Hanratty, but I may well be wrong about this. But he did indeed 'call for the papers' concluded that Hanratty was guilty. Justice was just about ignored at the Lincoln by-election where he stood against Taverne, but he did emphasise that he was standing only to show up Taverne's insincerity. I suppose Justice thought that he had made his point.


Hanratty turned up at The Broadway House Hotel after asking a taxi-driver to take him to a hotel. However, as was often the case with Hanratty, he couldn't remember the name of the hotel but recalled that it was close to Baker Street tube-station. It was afterwards established that it must have been The Broadway House. Which, as it turned out, was full, and Hanratty was then directed to another hotel - The Vienna in Maida Vale - which was in the same group as The Broadway. Hanratty says he went to The Vienna by cab. If he actually wanted a hotel close to Euston, then The Vienna was a bad choice - it was close to Paddington, not Euston. From this I deduce that Hanratty's stay at The Vienna was purely fortuitous, and that the hotel was not selected by him for any particular reason of its location. If for whatever reason he'd not liked the location of The Vienna, he wouldn't have gone there. As Miller points out, Paddington Station is the terminus from which trains for Slough and Maidenhead departed, and of course Dorney Reach is quite close to Slough.


Regarding Hanratty's claimed identification of the hankie as belonging to him, there was much debate about this on the old boards. Most of this debate was concerning how he could recognise the hankie as his - was it monogrammed; was it a particular colour; was the stitching unusual? It seems to have been taken as read that he had been shown the hankie while on the witness-stand at his trial, and had identified it. Now I know that I've read this somewhere - not on these boards, probably not in any of the books, and not in the transcript of the trial (of which I've only read small sections). I have read the transcript of the Appeal, which I have on my computer, but honestly can't remember if I read it there. I don't think it's just a rumour, Nick - no smoke without fire.

Graham

[barnflatwyngarde]

The photo of Alphon posted by NickB looks disconcertingly like my stepson....

Strange, isn't it, how Alphon is usually described as a scruffy sod, yet here he is looking smarter than a new pin!

BFW,

which documentary are you referring to? There were several, and I think I have them all (on video tape). It's a fact that when Hanratty was at the Frances' house one evening shortly after the crime, a photofit was flashed onto the screen, and Charlotte France said to Hanratty, "That looks just like you!" But of course Hanratty's supporters continue to deny that either of the 'published' photofits look anything like Hanratty.

The 'prison worker' you refer to sounds like a Mr John Needham, who was an RAF Police corporal at RAF Halton. He said that he was guarding Hanratty during an ID parade at Halton, and stated that Hanratty was 'openly cocky' about the case, telling Needham that he had done it, that the police knew he had done it, but couldn't prove it. The thing is that no ID parade was held at Halton, but I understand that some RAF Halton personnel were seconded onto the ID parade at Stoke Mandeville Hospital, the parade in which Valerie Storey identified Hanratty as Gregsten's killer and her rapist. Mr Needham was basically mistaken. Mr Needham also said that Hanratty was smoking; Hanratty did not smoke.

There is however a possibility that Hanratty did confess to the A6 Crime, perhaps on at least one occasion; but more of that anon.

Welcome to the A6 Case, Mr BFW.

Graham

Graham, you are absolutely correct!
I remember that the "prison worker" I referred to to was an RAF worker.

Thanks for jogging my memory.

[Alfie]

Paddington or Euston?

Returning Hanratty's movements on Mon Aug 21 and Tues Aug 22: during my readings - whether on the board or in some book, I can't remember - I find I've made a note that Louise Anderson stated that Hanratty visited her on the Tues morning - presumably this would have been around the time of his visit to nearby Paddington Station.

I don't have any source for this. Does anybody know to whom Mrs Anderson made this statement?

If Hanratty did indeed visit Anderson that morning, would that account for his later relating to the police that he 'accidentally' went to Paddington that morning before going on to Euston Station?

[NickB]

Alfie - The claim that Anderson said she visited him is on the 'Tuesday 22 August' page of the Paul Magee site. The site does contain some errors but I do not know if this is one.

pemmusing.wordpress.com/2012/05/20/the-a6-bedfordshire-murder/

[Alfie]

Alfie - The claim that Anderson said she visited him is on the 'Tuesday 22 August' page of the Paul Magee site. The site does contain some errors but I do not know if this is one.

pemmusing.wordpress.com/2012/05/20/the-a6-bedfordshire-murder/

Thanks again, Nick. I haven't read this anywhere else and until I'm told otherwise I'll put it down as another of those myths - like Hanratty owning up to the handkerchief - that this case seems to accumulate.

Too bad, because it would have explained why Hanratty admitted that he went to Paddington that morning. He must have been afraid that somebody could attest to this fact, or why else would he make such an incriminating admission? (Excluding, of course, that extremely remote possibility - that this was another example of the naivety of the innocent!)

[Derrick]

This is from the trial (29th January)

Mr Sherrard) You are not very good about dates and the sequence of things?
Louise Anderson) No.
MS) He always behaved properly towards you?
LA) Yes.

Del

[Alfie]

Blood in the Morris Minor

It seems to be taken for granted that after Gregsten was shot the car would have been if not swamped in blood then at least very bloody around the front seat where he was sitting, but I wonder if this would have in fact been the case.

Granted, Valerie stated: ‘M fell forward over the steering-wheel and I could see the blood pouring out of his head.’ But I wonder how accurate her description was, as she is also quoted as saying that without passing cars lighting the scene it was pitch dark in the car. Maybe she was going more on the sound effects.

Woffinden writes, without quoting anybody or any report: "On seeing the MM, police were immediately struck by the amount of blood in it...The murderer had more than once insisted that he must not get blood on him; but even a cursory inspection of the car revealed that he could hardly have been successful."

But Foot has Nickoll finding just "two clots of blood on the floor."

I'm not sure how much blood would flow from a body sitting upright, or almost upright, as Gregsten's was. As soon as the heart stopped beating wouldn't gravity ensure that blood no longer flowed from his wounds?

With a rug draped over the seat, maybe the gunman only had to keep his feet out of a couple of smallish pools of blood on the floor immediately in front of the seat to avoid becoming bloodstained?

Any medical experts out there?

[gallicrow]

I'm no medical expert, but you see crime scene photographs from a similar sort of incident on Bernard O'Mahoney's site.

Warning - these are very graphic indeed. Do not follow this link if you are in the middle of eating a jam sandwich.

http://www.bernardomahoney.com/rrmurders/photos/cpho2/page05.shtml

[Alfie]

Returning Hanratty's movements on Mon Aug 21 and Tues Aug 22: during my readings - whether on the board or in some book, I can't remember - I find I've made a note that Louise Anderson stated that Hanratty visited her on the Tues morning - presumably this would have been around the time of his visit to nearby Paddington Station.

I don't have any source for this. Does anybody know to whom Mrs Anderson made this statement?

Just found this reference in Foot (p 168): "At the trial at Bedford … she became uncompromisingly hostile to Hanratty. First of all she said, as she had never said before, that she had seen Hanratty early on the morning of Aug 22 – the day before the murder ..."

If she's being truthful, it would explain why Hanratty told police about his 'accidental' trip to Paddington.

[NickB]

But as Derrick says, Anderson admitted she was not very good about dates.

On October 8 she told the Miirror the last time Hanratty visited her was “last Thursday” – i.e. October 5. Wasn’t it when he left his bags there on Wednesday October 4? If so, she was confused about a date after just 3 days.

[Ed James]

But as Derrick says, Anderson admitted she was not very good about dates.

On October 8 she told the Miirror the last time Hanratty visited her was “last Thursday” – i.e. October 5. Wasn’t it when he left his bags there on Wednesday October 4? If so, she was confused about a date after just 3 days.

This is my first post. So apologies if I am not saying anything original.

I am not certain of Hanratty's guilt.I find the case intriguing, full of contrary evidence and interpretations - but can see why many folk are strongly convinced either way!. Some of this intrigue perhaps stems from the English adversarial system - the battle between prosecution and defence - rather than a search for the absolute truth. For example,each side not pursuing aspects which may prove unhelpful.

I think that Louise Anderson's contribution may provide some insights. Contrast her initially 'supportive' comments to the Press after Hanratty being identified as a suspect with the account of a gun in the France's (airing) cupboard. 'I soon discovered that he could not read or write but that didn't matter to me' she told the Press. Yet at the time she said this , she would - according to her later account - have already been told by Hanratty that he stored a gun in the France's cupboard.

Surely, someone under severe pressure to be helpful to the Police would have recounted the alleged gun storage at an early stage, even if she distanced herself from any culpability by saying she thought it was simply idle boasting.

Does her behaviour and the detailed information (pink blankets and butchers bag that would seem to authenticate the story) suggest the source of the information was not necessarily Hanratty. If so the obvious candidate would be Dixie France at a later juncture, wanting to get this information to the police but not be linked personally to direct knowledge of the gun.
It could be that Louise in relating the gun storage story to Charlotte and Carole France in the waiting room at the committal was not seeking to unsettle them , as Woffinden suggests , but looking for their reaction to a matter of which she was actually uncertain.
i would welcome others views based on their greater knowledge of the case.

Ed

[Derrick]

Hi Ed
Welcome to the forums.
I hope you stick around.
Del

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Ed

I hope you stick around.

I concur...thoughtful first post...

All the best

Dave

[Derrick]

...Surely, someone under severe pressure to be helpful to the Police would have recounted the alleged gun storage at an early stage, even if she distanced herself from any culpability by saying she thought it was simply idle boasting...

Hi Ed
Mrs Anderson was indeed under severe pressure. That pressure came from her being liable to indictment for fencing, and the police knew it.

In my view there is no other explanation for her sudden change of opinion towards Hanratty.

In my view that makes everything that Anderson said, that incriminated Hanratty, completely suspect.

I believe that the police used Langdale in a similar way.

Del