A6 murder and the 1967 Nimmo Inquiry

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Norma,
The dear ladies from Rhyl may well have been very worthy, but they basically didn't know what they were talking about and Michael Sherrard equally dismiissed them because he knew that anything they said could not be proved.
Graham

Graham,
The Rhyl ladies I am talking about were too late for Sherrard and the trial so what do you mean by that?
The trial had only days to run when Mrs Margaret Walker and Mr Trevor Dutton went to the police.There was no time to test them out.Gillbanks and Sherrard were in Bedford.
Mrs Betty Davies answered her door to a young man in a dark suit who had knocked late evening requesting B&B.He looked like descriptions of Hanratty.Her husband Mr Noel Davies and her mother in law Mrs Margaret Davies [who lived at the back] confim her story totally and have each made statements to that effect.Meanwhile Margaret Walker had been approached by this same young man,who she noticed had streaky brown hair,and asked the same question.He was noticed by Mrs Ivy Vincent who he also approached.Mrs Walker and Ivy Vincent suggested he went to Kinmel St round the corner and he was last seen heading towards Kinmel Street .
Whats wrong? Why are these people being dismissed?

[Graham]

Mr D Muir,

the problem with all the cases you mention is that there is either very little or no evidence to support the guilt of anyone else. Correct me if I am wrong, but it is not the police who pursue a case, but the Crown Prosecution Service who in effect instruct the police how to proceed. In the case of Colin Stagg, again correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't he receive due compensation for his unwarranted persecution, which to my mind suggests an official admission that his prosecution was wrong? To my mind, the real 'wrong' of the Rachell Nickell case is the fact that the policewomen who was set up to 'honeytrap' Stagg received more financial compensation than Rachell's own son, who witnessed his mother's murder. Says a lot, doesn't it?

Re: the Christie Case, I for one believe that Evans did actually kill his daughter.

Graham

[Graham]

Graham,
The Rhyl ladies I am talking about were too late for Sherrard and the trial so what do you mean by that?
The trial had only days to run when Mrs Margaret Walker and Mr Trevor Dutton went to the police.There was no time to test them out.Gillbanks and Sherrard were in Bedford.
Mrs Betty Davies answered her door to a young man in a dark suit who had knocked late evening requesting B&B.He looked like descriptions of Hanratty.Her husband Mr Noel Davies and her mother in law Mrs Margaret Davies [who lived at the back] confim her story totally and have each made statements to that effect.Meanwhile Margaret Walker had been approached by this same young man,who she noticed had streaky brown hair,and asked the same question.He was noticed by Mrs Ivy Vincent who he also approached.Mrs Walker and Ivy Vincent suggested he went to Kinmel St round the corner and he was last seen heading towards Kinmel Street .
Whats wrong? Why are these people being dismissed?

Even so, nothing they said could be proved.

Graham

[Natalie Severn]

Graham,
If as you admit,the evidence of Nudds and Langdale was unreliable as was the ID of Skillett and Trower,what you are left with is the 2nd ID of Valerie with all the latest information on victim eye witness id pointing to the possibility of error there too.So what are you left with?In terms of reliable witnesses? What are you left with regarding a case against Hanratty?
Well what we now have ,almost "magically" as Michael Sherrard has suggested,
is the discovery of Hanratty"s DNA on a very old ,degraded ,tiny piece of cloth,whose history is chequered to say the least since it was found abandoned in a police lab ,after 31 years in a brown envelope its edges coming apart,in a drawer also containing Hanratty"s trousers,a broken vial,separated from its rubber stopper with other items from the A6 case.
The cloth was so fragile and the DNA so faint that LCN DNA testing had to be done with all the consequential dangers of contamination.
It really is quite simple the case against Hanratty.It depended on bogus or unreliable information from start to finish.

[Natalie Severn]

Even so, nothing they said could be proved.

Graham

And neither could anything said against Hanratty.The LCNDNA is just a kind of fob.

[Graham]

Graham,
If as you admit,the evidence of Nudds and Langdale was unreliable as was the ID of Skillett and Trower,what you are left with is the 2nd ID of Valerie with all the latest information on victim eye witness id pointing to the possibility of error there too.So what are you left with?In terms of reliable witnesses? What are you left with regarding a case against Hanratty?
Well what we now have ,almost "magically" as Michael Sherrard has suggested,
is the discovery of Hanratty"s DNA on a very old ,degraded ,tiny piece of cloth,whose history is chequered to say the least since it was found abandoned in a police lab ,after 31 years in a brown envelope its edges coming apart,in a drawer also containing Hanratty"s trousers,a broken vial,separated from its rubber stopper with other items from the A6 case.
The cloth was so fragile and the DNA so faint that LCN DNA testing had to be done with all the consequential dangers of contamination.
It really is quite simple the case against Hanratty.It depended on bogus or unreliable information from start to finish.

The fact is, Norma, that Valerie picked Hanratty out of a parade containing men other than James Hanratty. Never mind all the stuff about eye-witness i.d. and all that - she recognised him and she identified him. I don't think even Sherrard was able to argue with this. Had she not identified Hanratty, then the A6 Case would have gone down in history as one of the UK's most mysterious unsolved murder cases.

As far as the DNA is concerned, I repeat for the zillionth time - if a fully qualified independent expert on DNA analysis is able to pinpoint any reason why the DNA can be dismissed as unreliable, then I will be convinced that the DNA is wrong. Until such time as that happens, I will continue to accept the findings as they stand and will also continue to remind anyone that the Hanratty family and the defence team pressed for a DNA analysis, but rather perversely questioned the findings when they did not coincide with what they wanted to hear. Hanratty did it. End. Is it?

Graham

[Natalie Severn]

Part of the tragedy as far as I am concerned Graham,is that Hanratty"s family relied on the state .I stand with Paul Foot on that one.It wasn"t likely to happen.Derrick"s long post on the previous page summarises the obstacle path for all those wrongly accused and the case of Colin Stagg epitomises it.Robert Napper cleared Colin Stagg"s name -not any appeal court.And where the accused is still alive to assert their innocence themselves,it ofcourse helps---as with the Guilford Four etc .

[Hatchett]

To Jimarilyn

It is true that I have only posted 22 times, but the error you make is that I did not refer to myself as a vetern of the A6 Threads or that I had been involved in passionate debate.

If you read my post again you will see that I was referring to Baby Bird, who I contend is a vetern and has been involved in passionate debate.

No doubt when you recognise your mistake you will be less critical of Baby Bird and the honest mistake that she made.

[Derrick]

....

Hi Graham

I also meant to add more about the Guildford Four.

The Balcombe Street siegers were the ones responsible for the Guildford and Woolwich pub bombings.

Despite telling the police this and their courtroom antics in instructing their counsel to mention it at every opportunity they were never charged with them.

The Criminal Justice System allowed 4 innocent people to spend another decade or more in stir. This is not to mention the Maguire 7 on top of that!!! The judge said in the Four's sentencing that he would have had no problem handing out the death sentences!

11 completely innocent people spending precious years in captivity. Guiseppe Conlon never came out alive.

Just a point about Roger Matthews. His view, in 1996, was post DNA as you will remember that SGM tests were carried out in 1995, which were inconclusive ie no profiles were found above the accepted RFU threshold.

Regards
Derrick

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Graham,

The fact is, Norma, that Valerie picked Hanratty out of a parade containing men other than James Hanratty. Never mind all the stuff about eye-witness i.d. and all that - she recognised him and she identified him. I don't think even Sherrard was able to argue with this.
Graham

Although it took her a full 20 minutes to do so and she needed to hear his voice---another area fraught with dangers of misidentification.The most reliable id"s are considered to be those that are made almost instantly.
Michael Sherrard had this to say about Valerie"s id actually:

MICHAEL SHERRARD: The witness may be perfectly honest, absolutely convinced that he or she has identified the right man or woman and you're not going to be able to cross-examine them to show that they're lying "cos they're not lying, they're telling the truth as they see it.[my emphasis].

[Natalie Severn]

The Criminal Justice System allowed 4 innocent people to spend another decade or more in stir. This is not to mention the Maguire 7 on top of that!!! The judge said in the Four's sentencing that he would have had no problem handing out the death sentences!

Which has always been the danger----in this case he would have passed the death sentence on four men who were later proved entirely innocent.
Instructive information about a system calling itself "the Criminal Justice System", Derrick.

[Derrick]

The most reliable id"s are considered to be those that are made almost instantly.

Hi Norma
If you are correct then you are playing into the hands of the prosecution as Trower identified Hanratty instantly.

Yet even those here who think Hanratty was the A6 killer accept that identification evidence is highly subjective. The Redbridge witnesses most likely did not see Gregstens' aunt's Mog according to the 2002 appeal.

And if it were not parked up before 5pm as some non-disclosed witnesses claim then it would seem unlikely that Alphon was the driver as he checked into the Alexandra at 5pm that day and was seen at the Vienna at 11.45am. Yet someone else may have parked it up for him. Who knows in this mad case.

Regards
Derrick

[Derrick]

Which has always been the danger----in this case he would have passed the death sentence on four men who were later proved entirely innocent.
Instructive information about a system calling itself "the Criminal Justice System", Derrick.

Indeed Norma

What is the saying?....There but for the Grace of God go I.

If one happens to get caught in the Criminal Justice System then they must have their wits about them in all aspects of it. Who can do all that with no resources against the state machine.

Regards
Derrick

[Derrick]

I must say something about this thread.

It was titled to be about the Nimmo inquiry.

Norma; you started off well by linking the Rhyl alibi to the distorted view in Nimmo of the Dinwoodie evidence.

Yet Nimmo has already been discredited solely by its reported remit. That was to interview every relevant witness.

Nimmo did not interview either Mr Dutton or Mr Larman. All matter of excuses were made and could still be made why they were not interviewed but it is inexcusable to place before parliament a report that is fundamentally a lie.

Derrick

[Natalie Severn]

I must say something about this thread.

It was titled to be about the Nimmo inquiry.

Norma; you started off well by linking the Rhyl alibi to the distorted view in Nimmo of the Dinwoodie evidence.

Yet Nimmo has already been discredited solely by its reported remit. That was to interview every relevant witness.

Nimmo did not interview either Mr Dutton or Mr Larman. All matter of excuses were made and could still be made why they were not interviewed but it is inexcusable to place before parliament a report that is fundamentally a lie.

Derrick

Absolutely Derrick.It needs to be examined carefully and I am willing to do that but after I return to London tomorrow if thats ok as I will then have my books available.



Norma