a6 murder

[Steve]

Jimarilyn

The full transcript is available at the Court House in Bedford where the trial took place. If you go there in person, and make an appointment beforehand, you can view it on the premises.

As for the Morris Minor, I believe that it could possibly have been returned to the car’s owner who was Michael Gregsten’s Aunt Hilda. There is a possibility that it could still be in police hands, in storage, but it was most probably scrapped at some point after the investigation had ended. If anyone knows for sure we would be very interested to hear!

Kind regards,
Steve

[jimarilyn]

Hi Steve,

I find it very remiss of the police if they did not retain possession of this vital piece of evidence ( the murder car ). Surely storage space could easily have been found for this Morris Minor, after all it was potentially much more important than a very small piece of a rape victim's knickers. Trying to visualise in one's mind (however difficult that might be) what happened in the confines of the back seat of that car while Michael Gregsten lay dead ( or dying ) leads one to speculate that someone's fingerprints, hairs, fibres or whatever must have been left there. If anything was ripe for future DNA detection that Morris Minor was. Perhaps the car is still around and the police are closing ranks and saying nothing.

[jimarilyn]

PS

Was the Morris Minor a two door or four door car ? Also, how far away from the lay by was the person doing the night shift for that traffic census ? Very strange that he heard no gun shots. Perhaps he was deaf.

[jimarilyn]

Hi

This particular 4 door model is from the early 50's

[larue]

hi guys

now for the balance of the posts from the 'old' forum. i will try to get them all posted on one go...






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#401 21st August 2007, 09:42 PM
Steve
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Hi Jeff

I too was taken to Madame Tussauds as a child and clearly remember how scary some of the exhibits seemed then. When I took my own children years later it all seemed a lot tamer, and I guess with so many more 'celebrities' these days the exhibits have to be changed far more frequently.

I didn't know there was one in New York, though I do know there is one in Las Vegas, complete with Elvis exhibit, quite appropriately. I go to Vegas from time to time on business and occasionally stay at the Las Vegas Hilton which was the hotel where Elvis performed. There is one of his stage jackets in a glass case in the foyer.

Kind regards,
Steve


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#402 21st August 2007, 10:01 PM
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Hi Graham

I suppose it's always possible that the Hanratty figure might have been reinstated when he was back in the news at the time of the DNA, but I do get a very strong feeling that the Hanratty story is fading from people's memory quite fast. Those interested in the case mostly believe the DNA has closed the controversy for ever, and many people are just too young to know anything about it.

After all, tomorrow night it will be 46 years since the A6 murder!

You were right about that Weston murder - I did a search on the internet and all that came back was a different post you made on the subject in another thread last year!

When you get chance please do tell all you know on the murder, it sounds very interesting. Perhaps start a new thread on the subject so as not to go off-topic too much on this one?

Kind regards,
Steve


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#403 21st August 2007, 10:17 PM
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Hi Steve.

Yep, tomorrow is indeed the 46th anniversary of the A6 Murder, and sad to say I remember it when it happened...

...and you're quite right in saying that, although at the time it was an appalling case, these days it's semi-forgotten. How many people recall that John Lennon and Yoko Ono were at one time campaigning on behalf of James Hanratty?

Regarding the Janic Weston Case, I'm taking up your suggestion to start another thread, right now....

Cheers,

Graham


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#404 21st August 2007, 10:23 PM
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Hi Graham

I think of (and feel for) Valerie Storie every time the anniversary comes around. For many years after the crime she used to wake up in terror in the middle of the night every 22/23 August, I think she said in a television interview that it was about 2 or 3 in the morning, about the time the attack took place.

I hope that doesn't happen for her tomorrow and I wish her a peaceful night's sleep.

Look forward to reading your Weston thread.

KR
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#405 21st August 2007, 10:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve
Hi Graham

I think of (and feel for) Valerie Storie every time the anniversary comes around. For many years after the crime she used to wake up in terror in the middle of the night every 22/23 August, I think she said in a television interview that it was about 2 or 3 in the morning, about the time the attack took place.

I hope that doesn't happen for her tomorrow and I wish her a peaceful night's sleep.

Look forward to reading your Weston thread.

KR
Steve


I echo your sentiments, Steve. Too often in the discussion of crime, and murders particularly, the victims, their friends and families, tend to be forgotten.

Cheers,

Graham.

PS: Janice Weston thread now started.


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#406 2nd September 2007, 12:21 AM
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hi all

interesting extract from the book 'The Encyclopedia of True Crime'
ISBN 1-86200-259-2


Genetic fingerprinting

In 1985 Alec Jeffreys from the University of Leicester discovered DNA fingerprints: the Holy Grail of serology, hailed as the ‘forensic breakthrough of the century’. Jeffreys was studying myoglobin protein when he isolated a block of repeated DNA sequences within the so-called hypervariable region. This is the DNA section responsible not for universal information common to all humans (how to grow arms and legs) but their personal characteristics. These blocks are particular to each individual (with the exception of identical twins) and are derived from bands present in either the mother or the father.
Jeffreys highlighted the hypervariable sections with radioadive probes so they registered on film, producing darkened bands not dissimilar in appearance from supermarket barcodes. At last blood specimens (or any type of genetic material) could be attributed with certainty not to a type of person but to a specific individual. Equally important, they could be unambiguously related to his antecedents and successors.

In its civilian guise, the procedure set to work resolving paternity and immigration disputes. Then in 1987 genetic fingerprinting secured the conviction of the British murderer and rapist Colin Pitchfork, a cake decorator, matching his blood to semen found in his victim. It was a copybook case, with the new wonder evidence simultaneously exculpating a 17-year-old false confessor.

The American author Joseph Wambaugh felt inspired to write: ‘The scourge of rape and other violent crimes could largely become a thing of the past.’ In 1988, DNA evidence secured its first conviction in the US when Tommie Lee Andrews went down for two rapes. And in 1989 a British publican, Ian Simms, was convicted of murdering 22 year old Helen McCourt on the strength of the bloodstains on his discarded clothes. The stumbling block had been to obtain a match with his victim's blood since her body was never found; the prosecution was only the third British case without a corpse. Ingeniously a sample taken from her parents tallied at one remove with those found on the murderer. The most recent figures show that about 15 per cent of the 4,500 DNA tests conducted annually in Britain are for criminal cases.

The DNA specimen may be degraded by a body's exposure to poor storage conditions, the process is often complicated by the tiny size of the specimen, and in closely linked population groups the DNA similarities may exceed the
patterns achieved by random mating Thus both false positives and false negatives remain a possibility and the reliability of the DNA test began to be challenged in the courts. In two Australian cases DNA evidence was ruled non admissable. In one it was disputed that the apparent barcode ‘match’ constituted a true match — they looked the same, but were they identical? In the other, the statistical evidence of probability (once put as high as 1:738,000,000,000,000) was dismissed because it did not include samples from the suspect’s ethnic group.

In December 1991, the American journal 'Science' suggested that realistic odds could not be calculated without greater knowledge of DNA patterns in ethnic communities. The authors, respected academics, were warned off by a US Department of Justice official and the magazine asked the writers to ‘tone down’ their findings. These included a Missouri case where the accused was initially found guilty on odds of one in 150 million, a figure the authors revised to one in 256. Six American courts have now excluded DNA evidence, ruling that ‘the scientific uncertainty over the role of population sub-structure in calculating the chance of DNA matches is too great to pass the so-called Frye test’ by which the admissibility of forensic evidence is judged. Thus the status of genetic fingerprinting is unclear in the United States, but less so in Britain, which has no equivalent of the ‘Frye test’ to satisfy.

In Britain, where techniques are accepted on an ad hoc basis, order prevails. Ethnicity is regarded as a statistical red herring since the odds are so high that the exact number of noughts is irrelevant. Ian Evett, from the Home Office Forensic Science Service, took the most extreme example (a single ‘probe’ as opposed to the usual four, confined to an Afro-Caribbean sample) and still derived a probability of one in 50,000. The most recent investigations suggest that genetic differences are greater within races than between them, and in Britain the mere mention of DNA evidence often secures guilty pleas when legal aid committees refuse funds to fight the case.

Nevertheless it is now apparent that ‘genetic fingerprinting’ is a misnomer. The evidence is subject to technical errors both in carrying out the test and in the inferences drawn from it.


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#407 2nd September 2007, 09:26 AM
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Hi Larue.

Good post! I guess that nothing is written in stone, and that includes DNA. However, in Hanratty's case, I believe that if there really were grounds for doubting the results, the lawyers would have fought back. I can't recall hearing anything at all from them since shortly after the DNA results were published, so I assume that the results are now accepted and that as far as any further legal proceedings are concerned, the case is now closed.

I've sometimes wondered about a not-impossible scenario in which Hanratty was not convicted at his trial, but after his death his DNA was compared with that on the exhibits and found to match.

Cheers,

Graham


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#408 2nd September 2007, 11:05 AM
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Hi Graham
thanks. you are right. nothing is written in stone. i found that section quite enlightening. especially the fact that some countries do not acccept DNA evidence per se. sadly the UK is not one of them.
in my opinion, from the lay person's point of view, DNA is something of a 'black art'. known aboot by all, but understood by so very few, so that to the non DNA knowledeable scientist, and the layperson, there is really no effective counter to the claims made by the DNA analysis. one literally does not know what one is talking aboot!

the two points of interest i found, are these;
1. "...and in Britain the mere mention of DNA evidence often secures guilty pleas when legal aid committees refuse funds to fight the case."

this seems incredibly prejudicial. why should it happen??? the most obvious reason, is simply as above. the non-DNA person has no way of figuring a defence, and is therefore handicapped by this all-conquering scientific evidence, that no-one can challenge, unless of course, the defence hires another DNA scientist to rebut, and the what do you have? your 'expert' arguing with their 'expert' yeah, right. huge expenditure of money, and for what??? who could afford it?

2. "Nevertheless it is now apparent that ‘genetic fingerprinting’ is a misnomer. The evidence is subject to technical errors both in carrying out the test and in the inferences drawn from it."

OK, so the guy doing the test cocks it up. who's going to know? the guy interpreting the results cocks up, again who's going to know? who is in a position to argue the analist findings? certainly not the jury. the defendant? hardly.

in Hanratty's case, as, i think, in all others, there are grounds for doubting the results. everything should be challenged, not just meekly accepted. i think JH's lawyers were under this DNA spell, and as i said above, could not figure an effective and easily believable counter, other than the issue of cross-contamination, which the learned judge basically laughed out of court. [i wonder what scientific qualification he holds that justify his reaction?]

i think the prosecution got exactly the result they required. i doubt that the court of appeal would contenance any further action on this case... but who knows what the future may bring?


i have recently finished reading Lord Russell of Liverpool's book. [ my collection of A6 related books is growing nicely ] i get the impression that Russell thought aquittal was justified, based on the evidence. [i liked the transcript extract of Sherrard's cross examination of Acott]. the scenario you mention is not that far-fetched. it could easily have happened.

the other thing i wonder aboot, is that, given aquittal, what would Hanratty's consequent behaviour have been like? back to a life of housebreaking/car theft or what??? would he have eventually been driven to confess like loughans???

more later

atb

larue


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#409 2nd September 2007, 11:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham
Too often in the discussion of crime, and murders particularly, the victims, their friends and families, tend to be forgotten.



amen to that!

not just in the discussion either. seems to me that in all aspects of crime, far more concern is shown regarding the welfare of the perpetrator of crime, than with the victim.

after all is said and done, a murder victim stays dead...forever. there's no time off for good behavior from beyond the grave...


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#410 2nd September 2007, 08:02 PM
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Hi Larue.

I can only add that DNA is, perhaps, in a stage similar to that of finger-printing when that was first introduced - we know it works, but it takes time to trust the results.

I think I'm right in saying that Alphon willingly gave samples of blood, urine, pubic hair, etc., and that no match whatsoever was found between his samples and anything, eg., Hanratty's blood, that they were compared with.
I wonder if the police forensic people kept any articles of Alphon's clothing for future reference?

The kicker, I think, is not the underwear but the hankie. There was only one DNA found on that article. OK, you could argue that someone managed to acquire Hanratty's hankie with which to wrap the gun, but if that was the case then I'd say whoever that someone was, was anticipating forensic science by about 25 years.

Lord Russell viewed the case purely through trained legal eyes, and there is no doubt that to his mind Hanratty's trial was flawed. It's a long time since I read his book, but I don't think he ever actually made a case for Hanratty's innocence.

As to Hanratty himself, and what he might have done if acquitted - well, of course no-one can tell, but I rather suspect he'd have pretty soon returned to his former ways and lived out his life denying any part in the A6 Case.

Cheers,

Graham

[larue]

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#411 2nd September 2007, 09:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham
I can only add that DNA is, perhaps, in a stage similar to that of finger-printing when that was first introduced - we know it works, but it takes time to trust the results.


hi Graham

succinctly put. i was pondering exactly the same thing last night. i wonder how many people were wrongly convicted / aquitted before 'they' got it right.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham
The kicker, I think, is not the underwear but the hankie. There was only one DNA found on that article. OK, you could argue that someone managed to acquire Hanratty's hankie with which to wrap the gun, but if that was the case then I'd say whoever that someone was, was anticipating forensic science by about 25 years.


that is strange innit? only one DNA. i would have thought that the hankie would have been handled by all manner of other people, the cleaner that found it, police officers, forensic guys, court officials. and yet nobody else's DNA was found... even though DNA tests can pick up skin cells and sweat. if i was a conspiracy nut, i would find that very ominous...

i thought Russell's book very good, impartial aboot the guilty/not guilty part, but critical of the evidence and the trial

atb

larue


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#412 4th September 2007, 11:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by larue
hi Graham

succinctly put. i was pondering exactly the same thing last night. i wonder how many people were wrongly convicted / aquitted before 'they' got it right.




that is strange innit? only one DNA. i would have thought that the hankie would have been handled by all manner of other people, the cleaner that found it, police officers, forensic guys, court officials. and yet nobody else's DNA was found... even though DNA tests can pick up skin cells and sweat. if i was a conspiracy nut, i would find that very ominous...

i thought Russell's book very good, impartial aboot the guilty/not guilty part, but critical of the evidence and the trial

atb

larue


Hiya Larue.

Sorry, missed your post until just now.

I'd have to say that even in 1961 the police were very careful about handling forensic exhibits. I'm sure that the hankie must have been handled by at least one person - the bloke who found it wrapped around the gun - but once it was realised that it was a serious find, it must have been handled thereafter with tweezers, plastic bags, etc.

But I do follow your agrument - DNA is supposed to be super-sensitive, and yes, I'd have thought that someone else's other than Hanratty's would have been detected, but the forensic scientists said not. Only one DNA was found, and that was via the nasal fluids on the hankie. However, as I understand it, when a DNA sample is taken voluntarily from a person, it's always as a body fluid, and usually saliva. Being totally inexpert in such matters, I can't comment any more.

I've been toying with the idea of a letter to Geoffrey Bindman Partners to ask them if any further investigation is being carried out or proposed regarding the DNA tests and results.

Cheers,

Graham


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#413 Yesterday, 12:11 PM
Victor
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And of course scientific evidence is never wrong is it?

Anyone want to mention Prof Roy Meadows / Angela Cannings / Sally Clark?
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#414 Yesterday, 12:16 PM
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Hello Victor

I think if you read back over this thread you will that there is quite a lot of posting which suggests exactly the point that scientific evidence CAN be wrong. There are a lot of valid points being made about the unreliability of the DNA evidence specifically as far as this case is concerned, and of course other cases too.


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#415 Yesterday, 12:47 PM
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Hi Steve,

I was just reading Larue's post #406 about the probabilities and of course the massive mistakes of Roy Meadows sprung instantly to mind.
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#416 Yesterday, 01:12 PM
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Hello Victor

Roy Meadow ruined many people's lives, that's for sure.


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#417 Yesterday, 07:15 PM
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Victor,

Then there was Dr Skuse whose bad forensics tucked up the Birmingham Six for half their lives in gaol.

I don't think scientific detection method or aid is or can be 100% infallible,
but I'd say that fingerprints and DNA come pretty close.

By the way, there's a move by the UK judiciary to have a DNA log of every single person in the United Kingdom - is this a breach of civil liberties, or common sense? Anyone got any views?

Cheers,

Graham


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#418 Yesterday, 07:31 PM
Steve
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DNA Database

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Hi Graham

Common sense for most people, a breach of civil libearties for those with something to hide!

By the way, I'm with you one the wine front at Another Place on this Casebook. Would post more but just got back from the office and I need to pour myself a glass of ....... (Oh, sod it! Can't wait any longer.)

Rgds,
Steve


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#419 Yesterday, 07:37 PM
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That's better, Graham. A cheeky little Sauvignon Blanc chilled to exactly the correct temperature! With an evening meal a bottle of wine per person is not too much.

However, I agree with you - drinking and driving is a no-no, especially when your driving licence is part of your livelihood.

Hanratty, of course, was virtually tee-total. He therefore never had to worry about being caught drunk-driving in a stolen car!

Regards,
Steve


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#420 Today, 03:55 AM
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One thing that concerns me as far as DNA is chimeras.

These are people who carry two different DNA codes. No one knows how prevalent it is in the human population, but it does exist. There was one case where a mother almost had her children taken away because DNA testing showed that she wasn't the mother! Not until they took a DNA sample from her womb did they get a proper match.

Here is a short explanation if anyone is interested.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chimera_(genetics)

[larue]

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#421 6th September 2007, 06:11 AM
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Graham,

You mentioned that someone could have obtained hanratty's hankie and incriminated him by wrapping it round the gun but that they would be anticipating scientific developments by 25 years. Well, not really. Think of this. Hanratty often stayed with Charles France and his family. Woffendin states France's wife or daughter often did Hanratty's washing. France could have obtained a dirty hankie that way. Now France might have done so thinking that hanratty's fingerprints would be found on the hankie.

I also, repectfully, think you are wrong about Alphon offering his clothes for forensic testing. Woffendin states Alphon persistently refused to give up his clothes and things were still at that stage when Hanratty became the main suspect so it is likely Alphon's clothes were never inspected. Police were no even able to locate the clothes because he refused to say where they were (remember, he lived out of hotels and B&Bs and kept clothes in various places).

Regards

Limehouse

PS - I appreciate the respectful and supportive tone of this thread compared to a few other discussional threads. I find the site a bit competitive at times.


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#422 6th September 2007, 07:15 AM
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Hello Limehouse

If there was any degree of 'framing' going on it was almost certain that Dixie France was involved to some extent, and yes he could certainly have gotten hold of one of Hanratty's hankies before it was washed. Might even have had a JH monogram on it, though nothing has been stated about this point. It would have been mentioned at the trial you would have thought.

One of the major differences between Alphon and Hanratty was that Hanratty was totally willing to surrender his clothing whilst Alphon was reluctant to do so. In fact Alphon disposed of clothing he was wearing at the time of the murder at about the time the murder took place. Hanratty continued to wear the same suit for several days after the murder.

I know what you mean about the thread at Another Place - there does seem to be some Thread Rage going on! Normally rational individuals seem to be growing horns.

Kind regards,
Steve


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#423 6th September 2007, 08:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brenda
Here is a short explanation if anyone is interested.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chimera_(genetics)


Brenda, there is no information about the subject on that Wikipedia page at the moment. Perhaps you could tell us something more about Chimera?

Thanks,
Steve


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#424 6th September 2007, 10:23 AM
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hi Steve

i just found that this link works fine, but not from here. you need the last bracket, which for some strange reason, is not being included in the link.

try copying and pasting into the address bar

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chimera_(genetics)


atb

larue

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Last edited by larue : 6th September 2007 at 10:26 AM.


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#425 6th September 2007, 10:32 AM
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Thanks, Larue

I see what you mean about that last bracket being missing from the link on Brenda's post. Your link works fine and it is an interesting article. It certainly adds to the discussion about the accuracy or otherwise of DNA testing.

Thanks again,
Steve


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#426 6th September 2007, 11:41 AM
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Talking of Chimeras... http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/6978384.stm talks about the green light for human-cow cross-breeds.
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#427 6th September 2007, 11:46 AM
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Hello Victor

This is fascinating stuff. Do you see a relevance to the Hanratty case? Could any of this research start to throw doubt on the accuracy of the DNA testing in criminal cases?

Rgds,
Steve


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#428 6th September 2007, 12:30 PM
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I think the problem with the Hanratty case is that the DNA sample only produced one persons DNA. Reading larue's post #406 and using those statistics suggests that this could mean that either there's a 1 in 800billion chance it's not Hanratty or a 1 in 256. That's one hell of a difference.

I don't think the human-cow chimeras would help in this case I just added that link in because I saw it on the news the other night and it seemed relevant to Brenda's comments.
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#429 6th September 2007, 12:47 PM
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Hello Victor

1 in 256 would certainly mean the DNA evidence was far from conclusive. You are right about there being only one person's DNA on those exhibits that were tested. Experts in DNA testing have said that if Hanratty's DNA was introduced to the exhibits whilst he handled them at the trial, then the problem would be that there was no-one else's DNA present, meaning the real killer if Hanratty was innocent of the crime. This 'other' DNA would presumably have been Alphon's. I'm fairly certain that Alphon's DNA was never profiled. In any case, as has been said previously, it is very strange that no-one else's DNA was found on any of the exhibits, especially since they were all handled by several people. I think it was Michael Hanratty who said that the exhibits were all dumped back into a single box at the end of each day of the trial. Also, wherever they were stored during the time they were 'lost' which was a period of some 30 to 40 years, one could reasonably assume they would have to be handled at some point, even if it was only at the time they were actually 'found.'

Personally I have no doubt that Hanratty was guilty of the A6 murder. My opinion is based largely on Valerie Storie's total belief that it was Hanratty who was in the Morris Minor that night. I do think that she would recognise his voice and I think it very unlikely that she would be mistaken.

However, I do believe that Hanratty should not have been convicted on the evidence presented at the trial, and I further believe that it was wrong to hang him. Not that I think the crime didn't justify capital punishment, it did justify it, certainly at the time in 1962. But with the circumstances surrounding the case hanging was wrong. One cannot blame the judge for this, hanging was the only sentence available to him. One wonders if the jurors were aware of this fact during their deliberations, and if they would have brought back a different result.

Perhaps this speculation over the DNA evidence serves to further reinforce the point that Hanratty should not have been convicted on the available evidence.

Rgds,
Steve

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#430 6th September 2007, 01:26 PM
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I completely agree with you there Steve, Hanratty should not have been found guilty on the evidence presented at the time, but the DNA evidence seems to indicate that the conviction was "safe".

I'm going to have to read through the evidence again to remind myself exactly what the DNA evidence showed.

I personally believe that the Rhyl evidence is unreliable and a smokescreen to muddy the waters (mixing metaphors, sorry about that), but the other evidence available at the time wasn't enough to say he did it for sure. I'm not a great fan of capital punishment but you are right that it was the only sentence available at the time.
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#431 6th September 2007, 01:49 PM
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Hello Victor

The Rhyl part of Hanratty's alibi is definitely puzzling. The probability is that he did visit Rhyl earlier in the year and spent a night or two at Ingledene, and did meet all those people who came forward to corroborate his alibi. He just didn’t meet them when they thought he had. Even those people who were absolutely certain it was on a particular day could well have been mistaken, either about the day and the time, or about the individual they actually met.

Why did Hanratty switch his alibi so suddenly from Liverpool to Rhyl in the middle of the trial? This is a puzzle that probably only Hanratty himself knew the answer to. His defence team were so concerned about it that they made Hanratty sign a letter authorising them to switch the alibi evidence.

Hanratty probably just knew that his Liverpool alibi was not going to be proved (perhaps again because his visit had actually been on a different occasion) and felt that he stood a much better chance of proving the Rhyl alibi. It was a big gamble on his part, and could well have been the mistake that cost him his life.

The whole Liverpool/Rhyl alibi evidence was in all probability an amalgam of several visits made by Hanratty both before and after the murder. The fact is that no one individual ever came forward with a statement that could be proven in a court of law to say that ‘I saw James Hanratty and there can be no doubt that it was him and the time, date and place where I saw him makes it 100% certain that he could not possibly have been in a cornfield near Slough at the time the Morris Minor was parked there.’ James Hanratty did not have an alibi for the murder!

Rgds,
Steve

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#432 6th September 2007, 04:09 PM
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I was just trying to work out the exact DNA evidence and the samples used from the BBC (Horizon) website and innocent.org.uk and there seems to be a variety of answers.

The two samples are (1) a small portion of Valerie Storie's underwear, and (2) a handkerchief that the gun was wrapped in, both of which had Hanratty's DNA.

(1) had Valerie's DNA, Hanratty's and (?) Gregson's.
(2) had just Hanratty's - or was the bus conductor who found the gun there as well?

It depends upon how many others were found and eliminated as "expected to be there". Then there are the stories that Charles France wanted to frame Hanratty as he'd been messing his daughter around and used the hanky to frame him which could explain (2), but the science wasn't around in 1962 so France lucked out if you believe that.

As for (1), what about the "trouser wash" that could have introduced Hanratty's DNA. So where's the real killer's DNA? I suppose that depends upon whether Gregson's and Storie's were both found. I can believe that if you had the 3 and only the 3 then Hanratty definitely is guilty, but if you ONLY found Hanratty's then the wash could have eliminated all traces of other DNA...theoretically.

That's the problem for me, it's a complicated convoluted route to explain away the DNA which just doesn't seem possible.
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#433 6th September 2007, 04:32 PM
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Hi Victor

My understanding of the DNA testing samples is the same as yours, underwear and hankie. I have read and heard varying reports as to the DNA profiles present on the former exhibit, but everyone seems to be agreed that only Hanratty’s profile was found on the latter exhibit. Some reports tell that only Hanratty’s DNA was present on the underwear whilst others say Michael Gregsten’s

I don’t believe any other DNA evidence was found and I don’t believe that anyone was eliminated. I could be wrong, of course.

As for Dixie framing Hanratty, I don’t think that is the case, but I do think there is a strong possibility that he went out of his way to point the police in Hanratty’s direction. He was the one person who could possibly have disposed of the gun and placed Hanratty’s hankie over it. Additionally, he had the story to tell of ‘a good place to dispose of things is the back seat of a bus’ and he would have known how potentially incriminating to Hanratty the 36A bus would have been. He certainly was aware that Hanratty had spent a night at The Vienna, and he could conceivably have planted the cartridge cases there. If so, he had remarkable luck that the room Hanratty slept it remained largely unoccupied between Hanratty sleeping there and the finding of the cartridge cases.

The ‘trouser wash’ is an interesting point already raised on this thread. The truth is that we really do need a lot more expert input on this whole area of the DNA evidence. I have the feeling that there is still a lot more for the public to learn about DNA evidence. Whether or not new information would change the complexion of the Hanratty case really does remain to be seen.

Kind regards,
Steve


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#434 6th September 2007, 04:39 PM
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Hi Victor,

If France did use the hankie to try and frame Hanratty he might have done so thinking Hanratty's fingerprints would be found on it. Predicitng DNA doesn't enter into that scenario.

OK, so Hanratty's DNA only was found on the garments - no sign of another killer - BUT - absolutely nothing of Hanratty was found in the car - no fibres, fingerprints (the killer wore gloves), no forensic material left by the killer at all - but plenty of Gregston's blood.

It is worrying that forensic evidence incriminating Hanratty is found on transient articles (articles that have been touchedby others, moved by others, taken from place to place, stored etc) but no other forensic evidence links him to the crime (ie the clothes he wore on the night, the car etc).

I still keep swinging each way regarding Hanratty's guilt. I suppose the truth is, I don't want him to be guilty.

Limehouse


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#435 6th September 2007, 04:49 PM
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Hello Limehouse

You are quite right, there was no evidence presented at the trial to positively link Hanratty to the murder scene. In fact, I think I right in saying that there was no forensic evidence found at the time even on what you call transient articles. I think it wasn't until the DNA testing that any scientific evidence was found to link Hanratty to the crime. He was convicted mainly on the identification evidence together with the circumstantial evidence which included finding the gun, the murder weapon, in a place that he admitted to the court was one he used to dispose of unwanted contraband. Also, of course, the cartridge cases being found in a room in which he had spent the night before the abduction at the cornfield.

His lack of an alibi wont have helped either!

Your point about not wanting Hanratty to be guilty is a good one and proves that human nature always favours the underdog. The fact is that he was a criminal who contributed nothing positive to society. He didn't work, he didn't pay taxes and he admitted to being a thief.

The members of the jury must have been convinced that he was capable of murder and rape.

If he didn't commit the murder, who do you believe did? Was it Alphon, or was it someone who was never publicly connected with the murder and escaped conviction of this crime. The police did actually question several other men about this crime before they decided that Hanratty was their prime suspect.

Kind regards,
Steve

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#436 6th September 2007, 05:25 PM
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Hi Steve,

Who do I think committed the murder? I used to think it was Alphon but I am not convinced he would have raped a woman as I believe he was basically homosexual and let's face it - he did not have a serious criminal background as Hanratty did.

Was Hanratty framed? Possibly.

Did he commit the murder because he was hired? Possibly. That might clear up a few puzzles. For example, Hanratty may have changed his alibi because the alibi he was 'promised' by friends in Liverpool did not materialise once the crime turned into murder and rape. The friends in Liverpool seem to have been people who received his stolen goods so there may be a connection between them and his lady friend who knew Gregten's brother-in-law. (I am forgetting all the names at this point!!). It is possible, but unlikely, that the crime was an attempt to get rid of Gregsten.

Did Hanratty simply go out that night and commit that terrible crime because he was bored with burglary and wanted to move into something bigger? Again, possibly. He obviously was not the most stable of people but the crime does seem a very big departure from his formal habits which although were far from saintly, were nevertheless not violent or sexually deviant.

As you have previously mentioned, Valorie Storey has had to live with this for 46 years and she is the real vicitm, along with Janet, her family and Hanratty's family so my sympathies should really focus on them.

Regards

Limehouse


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#437 6th September 2007, 05:41 PM
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Hi Limehouse

Interesting that you believe Alphon was basically homosexual. He certainly enjoyed a close friendship, albeit briefly, with Jean Justice, who most certainly was homosexual. If that developed into a sexual relationship I wonder how Jeremy Fox, Justice's live-in lover, viewed it? Do you think homosexuals, active, repressed or whatever, are incapable of raping a woman? Alphon could have been bi-sexual for all we know.

As for Alphon not being a criminal, I cannot agree with that. He certainly had a criminal record and he almost certainly attacked at least one, possibly two or more, women in their own homes. There is even a strong possibility that Alphon pointed a gun at one of these women on two separate occasions.

I don’t believe Hanratty was framed, I think it was a random and unplanned crime that turned out in a random and unplanned way. I do, however, think there might have been some skulduggery going after the fact!


Kind regards,
Steve


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#438 7th September 2007, 06:06 AM
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HI Steve,

It is strange that Alphon's behaviour at the time of the murder and afterwards makes him a much more likely candidate than Hanratty, yet all the forensic evidence available points to Hanratty. Add to this the initial confusion over the description of the killer and the evidence that links them both to the hotel, and you have one hell of a dectective story!


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#439 7th September 2007, 08:32 AM
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Morning Limehouse

Alphon's strange behaviour at the time of the murder certainly made him a likely candidate, and the police were convinced that he was their man before Ryan/Hanratty figured in the investigation. The ONLY forensic evidence that we are aware of in this case is the DNA testing which at this point in time confirms beyond doubt Hanratty's guilt.

I've said it before but if Alphon had been convicted and hanged for the murder we might now be discussing how thin the case against him was. The case would have been:
Valerie Storie’s positive identification of Peter Alphon (without asking to say 'be quiet, I'm thinking')
The fact that he was booked into The Vienna on the murder night, where cartridge cases from the murder weapon were later found
An incriminating statement from police-informer Nudds
Of course, we would only be discussing the case if Alphon's family or some interested third party felt strongly enough about Alphon's innocence to mount a campaign similiar to the one for Hanratty.

I agree with you, it certainly is a very interesting detective story, and judging by the number of views these posts are attracting it is still a story of great interest to many people.

Kind regards,
Steve


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#440 8th September 2007, 08:29 AM
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His Steve,

There is of course Alphon's persistent confessions to the crime - but that would only stand up if there was more forensic evidence linking him to the car and the weapon.

Re Alphon's criminal record and alleged attack on women, I did not take Woffinden's suggestions that Alphon had attacked women in their homes very seriously as it seems the police only charged him with one of these attacks. Did I get that wrong? If it was Alphon who told the women 'I am the A6 killer' and there was strong evidence to support this he should surely have served a prison sentence?

Regards

Limehouse

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#441 8th September 2007, 08:42 AM
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Mornng Limehouse

Alphon didn't confess to the A6 murder until much later, and then only publicly on foreign soil. And of course he only confessed once Hanratty had been convicted and hanged, and there was by then little danger to himself.

I very much doubt that he would have have confessed to the crime at the point he was a suspect. But you are right of course that had he confessed to the police at that time they would have had a water-tight case against him.

As for the attacks on the women, it could have been Alphon, it could have been someone else. At the time of one of the attacks he did 'disappear' for a while, just about long enough to get there and back.

As far as prosecution goes Alphon does seem to have escaped lightly on several occasions. Just one of the many unsolved puzzles surrounding the whole A6 murder case.

Kind regards,
Steve


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#442 8th September 2007, 12:04 PM
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I have just started reading 'Hanratty, The Final Verdict', and had to smile at the anecdote about Jean Justice's seach for a copy of the Daily Mail dated 23 September (year date not stated: 1961??) which contained an article on Peter Alphon. He eventually found a copy on a vintage newspaper stall in Brighton.........28 years on! The startled owner accepted the proffered £10.

Now that's what I call dedicated research.

By the way, has anyone yet found out if Alphon is still alive?

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#443 8th September 2007, 12:16 PM
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Hello Granger

Yes, the newspaper was from 1961 - I too thought that bit amusing: '... happily bestowing a £10 note on the startled proprietor ...

Someone posted some time ago that Alphon had definitely died. I don't know for sure, I've tried unsuccessfully to find an obituary or a death notice. Perhaps someone else could try?

KR
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#444 8th September 2007, 01:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve
Hello Granger

Yes, the newspaper was from 1961 - I too thought that bit amusing: '... happily bestowing a £10 note on the startled proprietor ...

Someone posted some time ago that Alphon had definitely died. I don't know for sure, I've tried unsuccessfully to find an obituary or a death notice. Perhaps someone else could try?

KR
Steve


I thought I read many years ago that he was terminally ill. I would have thought that if he had died someone would have picked it, and there would have been some mention of the fact on the Internet. I have a feeling he must be alive!


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#445 8th September 2007, 01:06 PM
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Can you recall where you read that he was terminally ill? Or did it say where he was living at the time. I would have guessed at Brighton which is where his parents moved to after his father retired. Of course he could be living anywhere. How long ago did you read about him? If he was terminally ill a long time ago the chances are he has quietly died in obscurity.

It would be interesting to know.


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#446 8th September 2007, 02:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve
Can you recall where you read that he was terminally ill? Or did it say where he was living at the time. I would have guessed at Brighton which is where his parents moved to after his father retired. Of course he could be living anywhere. How long ago did you read about him? If he was terminally ill a long time ago the chances are he has quietly died in obscurity.

It would be interesting to know.


Hi Steve: Some years ago. I am sure I am wrong!!

Why do I also keep remembering a TV documantary on Hanratty, showing scenes of Alphon pacing a railway platform?


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#447 8th September 2007, 02:05 PM
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I believe you are right about the railway platform scene. I think it was a programme from the 60's, possibly 70's. I have quite a few of the documentaries videotaped, but not that one. The programme you are remembering was probably transmitted in pre-video recorder days.


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#448 8th September 2007, 03:35 PM
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Hi Steve,

I haven't posted for several weeks on this forum but have been following closely all the threads. The documentary you mentioned was the 1992 (?) Channel 4 production "Mystery of Deadman's Hill". I got the impression that the filmed footage of Peter Alphon on that railway platform was contemporary with the documentary as Alphon appears to be a man in his early sixties ( he was born in late August of 1930, his mother's maiden name being Jordan ). I too have a feeling he is still alive as there is no mention (as of 2005) of a death registration for a Peter Louis Alphon under the births, marriages and deaths indexes on the Ancestry.co.uk website This does not of course exclude the possibility that he may have moved to another country and died there. If he wasn't the A6 murderer then he certainly has a lot to answer for, ie. muddying the waters and causing immense mischief for geuine researchers and seekers of the seemingly very elusive truth of the A6 murder.


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#449 8th September 2007, 03:54 PM
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Hello Jimarilyn

Is year 2005 the most recent information available on the Ancestry.co.uk website? If he is still alive he will have had his 77th birthday last month. Granger remembers a report saying that he was terminally ill some years ago so it’s unlikely that he’s still around.

There is also the possibility that he gave up using the Peter Alphon name to avoid attention and adopted an alias.

If he is still alive it must be possible to trace him and discover where he is living. If anyone succeeds in getting an address please PM me and I’ll pop along to see if he would like to have his photograph taken ….

Kind regard
Steve


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#450 8th September 2007, 04:56 PM
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Hi Steve,

Yes, 2005 is the latest available year for info on births, marriages and deaths in England and Wales. However I have just accessed the excellent 192.com
website and put in a search for Peter Alphon. I tried Brighton initially ( no luck there ) and then London. If you access this site you will find that a Peter L Alphon is listed for London on The Historical Electoral Roll ( for years 2002 to 2006 ). No results were found for the 2007 Electoral Roll or Free Directory Enquiries for Peter Alphon.

Unfortunately, in order to view the details on the Historical Electoral Roll 192.com requires you to buy 100 credits ( 34 pounds 95 p) in addition to the Extended Archive Membershio ( 149 pounds 99p ) and VAT of 32 pounds 36p, making a grand total of 217 pounds 30p. I would speculate from all this that perhaps Alphon died sometime between 2005 and 2006 if his name is not on the 2007 Electoral Roll. Or maybe he's still alive and in a nursing home or suchlike !

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#451 8th September 2007, 05:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimarilyn
I too have a feeling he is still alive as there is no mention (as of 2005) of a death registration for a Peter Louis Alphon under the births, marriages and deaths indexes on the Ancestry.co.uk website


I don't think you can put any reliance on these type of websites. Try putting in the names of persons you know have died in the last few years, and most will not appear.


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#452 8th September 2007, 05:07 PM
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Hmmm, Jimarilyn

I see what you mean. I suppose there could be more than one Peter L Alphon? No, I don't think that's likely.

I know what you mean, Granger, I've occasionally got some strange results when searching names and dates.

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#453 8th September 2007, 07:52 PM
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Evenin' all.

Regarding Alphon:

1] I have that documentary in which Alphon is seen pacing up and down a railway platform like a madman, but unfortunately my old video tape collection is in such a mess it'd take me days to locate it. I have a vague memory that Bob Woffinden was involved in that documentary, and that the scene featuring Alphon shows him in much later life. He is still wearing a beige "flasher"-type mac, and seems as nutty as a fruit-cake.

2] In his book Woffinden relates that he visited Alphon at a hotel in Argyle Street, Kings Cross, where he, Alphon, was living at the time - 1992. Woffinden states that Alphon hadn't been seen or heard since 1972, when Jeremy Fox met him by chance in Brighton. Woffinden relates that Alphon slammed the door in his face when he realised who it was who was calling.
However, Fox by some means managed to re-contact Alphon, who came out with a fresh version of his 'confession', this time the famous one in which he relates being at the Old Station to meet a blonde-wigged Janet Gregsten who pointed out to Alphon her husband and Valerie Storie. Yes, of course....

3] Someone did indeed post on this thread a statement to the effect that Alphon was dead, but Jimarilyon's recent post would appear to contracdict this.

4] Regarding his previous 'confessions', Jean Justice related how he and Jeremy Fox were in Fox's flat with Alphon the evening before Hanratty's execution, and that (presumably) Justice had arranged for a high-ranking policeman and a Home Office official to be nearby in case Alphone came up with an expected confession. He never did, and surprise, surprise, the cop and the official disappeared into the night.

5] Alphon was the ultimate 'chancer', and his (as I believe coincidental) involvement in the Hanratty Case was an excellent excuse for him to see if he could cash in on it. He probably did, and I wonder if he realised just how close he came to an appointment with the hangman. In my opinion, and this is reinforced by what I've read about him and seen courtesy of his televised interviews, he was a nasty sod - anyone capable of physically assaulting an elderly lady, as he did Hanratty's mother, falls into that category as far as I'm concerned.

6] There were rumours that Hanratty and Alphon were known to one another prior to the murder. I'd doubt that, though, and would like to know how and via whom these rumours came about.

7] Finally, something that's always nagged me: Hanratty was a professional, if minor, crook. He lived in the underworld and knew plenty of people associated with the underworld. It's always struck me as odd that, if he were innocent, no-one who knew him 'professionally' has to my knowledge ever come forward to this day to state that Jimmy Hanratty couldn't have been the A6 murder because [ ]. Fill in the blank yourself! There was still 'honour amongst thieves' in those days, or so I'm told, and even a villain probably wouldn't have stood by to see an innocent man pay the ultimate price.

Great case, great thread! Keep it going, folks!

Cheers,

Graham

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#454 8th September 2007, 08:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimarilyn
Hi Steve,

Yes, 2005 is the latest available year for info on births, marriages and deaths in England and Wales. However I have just accessed the excellent 192.com
website and put in a search for Peter Alphon. I tried Brighton initially ( no luck there ) and then London. If you access this site you will find that a Peter L Alphon is listed for London on The Historical Electoral Roll ( for years 2002 to 2006 ). No results were found for the 2007 Electoral Roll or Free Directory Enquiries for Peter Alphon.

Unfortunately, in order to view the details on the Historical Electoral Roll 192.com requires you to buy 100 credits ( 34 pounds 95 p) in addition to the Extended Archive Membershio ( 149 pounds 99p ) and VAT of 32 pounds 36p, making a grand total of 217 pounds 30p. I would speculate from all this that perhaps Alphon died sometime between 2005 and 2006 if his name is not on the 2007 Electoral Roll. Or maybe he's still alive and in a nursing home or suchlike !


I am very rusty on this case. Can anyone give me the locations, and periods where Alphon definitely lived for more than a short time? How long was he in Brighton? I often find a good way to obtain such information is a letter to the local rag. Mind you Alphon is a little different from subjects I normally research, and I think in his case it may be unwise to add one's residential contact address. Definitely approaches by e-mail only!!

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#455 8th September 2007, 08:24 PM
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Granger,

From what I gather reading Paul Foot and Bob Woffinden, Peter Alphon never stayed anywhere for more than a short time. It would appear that he had a habit of checking into hotels and then disappearing without settling his bill.
As far as I can ascertain, he was born in Paddington, but it seems his parents were also rather peripatetic, for whatever reason. I can't recall reading that he lived in Brighton at all, apart from Jeremy Fox's coincidental meeting with him there. Seems to me that he spent his entire adult life moving around London.

Cheers,

Graham


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#456 8th September 2007, 08:29 PM
Steve
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Hi Granger

Alphon seemed to move around a great deal. He had links to Horsham where he was evacuated to during the war. At the time of the murder his parents were living in Streatham, south London, and his father had a clerical job at Scotland Yard. Alphon seemed to stay in low-cost London hotels, often not bothering to pay the bill and getting away with it by using false names and addresses. Later he was known to stay with his parents in Brighton which is where they moved to in retirement. Apparently he later returned to his London haunts.

By any standards he was a strange character and lived a curious life.

Hope this helps.

KR
Steve


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#457 8th September 2007, 08:34 PM
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Graham

Alphon's parents lived in Brighton in late life and he went to stay with them on occasions. Foggerty-Waul drove to Brighton and camped in the street where Alphon was staying - he eventually pinned down the exact location and confronted Alphon in the street. That's how F-W convinced the A6 murder committee that Alphon was the man at Dorney seen near F-W's car; a Sidney Taffler look-alike.

KR
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#458 8th September 2007, 08:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve
Graham

Alphon's parents lived in Brighton in late life and he went to stay with them on occasions. Foggerty-Waul drove to Brighton and camped in the street where Alphon was staying - he eventually pinned down the exact location and confronted Alphon in the street. That's how F-W convinced the A6 murder committee that Alphon was the man at Dorney seen near F-W's car; a Sidney Taffler look-alike.

KR
Steve


Steve,

I'm a lazy bugger at times - I just re-read the passage about F-W and his visit to Brighton...thanks for putting me right.

Anyone else reading this not sure who Sidney Tafler was, he was a character actor in the 40's until about 60's, specialising in Cockney wide-boys. And Alphon did indeed resemble him.

Cheers,

Graham


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#459 8th September 2007, 08:44 PM
Steve
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham
(as I believe coincidental) involvement in the Hanratty Case was an excellent excuse for him to see if he could cash in on it - anyone capable of physically assaulting an elderly lady, as he did Hanratty's mother, falls into that category as far as I'm concerned.

7] It's always struck me as odd that, if he were innocent, no-one who knew him 'professionally' has to my knowledge ever come forward to this day to state that Jimmy Hanratty couldn't have been the A6 murderer because ...


Agree here totally. Alphon cashed in on the opportunities given him by Justice and proved himself as a criminal thug (Nazi, even, given his pro-Nazi views) by his actions towards Mrs H, and probably other vulnerable ladies.)

London's underworld closed ranks against Hanratty - if Alphon had been the murderer someone would have stepped up to the mark one way or another. If Hanratty had been innocent 'one of our own' would have been there to help out, so to speak.

KR
Steve

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Last edited by Steve : 8th September 2007 at 08:49 PM. Reason: I think I'm turning into Arthur Daley !!! Better just check on 'Her Indoors!'


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#460 8th September 2007, 08:54 PM
Graham
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Steve,

Regarding Hanratty and his criminal activities, do you by any chance know more about The Rehearsal Club in Archer Street, Soho, than has been written about in Foot's and Woffinden's books? Last year I spent a fair bit of time trying to track this place down, but failed. Presumably it long ago changed its name.

The consensus seems to be that Hanratty, even amongst other criminals, was considered to be something of a nobody.

Cheers,

Graham

[larue]

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James Hanratty: Guilty ?
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#461 9th September 2007, 08:19 AM
Limehouse
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Hi all,

My husband (a London cabbie) informs me that the club may now be called Charlie Chesters. he is not absolutley sure as there are several buildings that could, at one time, have been a club but he states the street is quite short and it is likely that it is this building.

Hope that helps.

Limehouse


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#462 9th September 2007, 08:44 AM
granger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham
Steve,


Anyone else reading this not sure who Sidney Tafler was, he was a character actor in the 40's until about 60's, specialising in Cockney wide-boys. And Alphon did indeed resemble him.

Cheers,

Graham


Not a good pic, but Sidney Taffler is the guy on the left.

http://www.televisionheaven.co.uk/dangerman2.jpg

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#463 9th September 2007, 10:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham
do you by any chance know more about The Rehearsal Club in Archer Street, Soho


Hi Graham

No, sorry, other than the address was 3 to 4 Archer Street, I don't know anything else about it. However, knowing that part of London it's probably now a stripjoint or gay bar.

Next time I can afford the congestion charge I'll go and have a look.

Rgds,
Steve


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#464 9th September 2007, 10:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Limehouse
club may now be called Charlie Chesters.


Hi Limehouse

That would be an unfortunate name for a business, given that in cockney rhyming slang a charlie chester is a child molester !!!

Rgds,
Steve


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#465 9th September 2007, 10:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by granger
Not a good pic, but Sidney Taffler is the guy on the left.

http://www.televisionheaven.co.uk/dangerman2.jpg

Hi Granger

I thought the one on with the gun in his hand was Peter Alphon?

Seriously, though I used to enjoy watching Danger Man on the telly. I wish I could say I watched the repeats but the truth is I remember watching it first time around !!!

Rgds,
Steve


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#466 9th September 2007, 10:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve
Hi Limehouse

That would be an unfortunate name for a business, given that in cockney rhyming slang a charlie chester is a child molester !!!

Rgds,
Steve


Limehouse, I've just googled the address of The Rehearsal Club - 3 to 4 Archer Street - and there is a club at that address now called 'Barcode.' It's on two floors (ground level & basement, perhaps?) and I believe The Rehearsal was a club in the basement, so it could well be the same place. And, would you believe it? It seems to be a gay club!

I was thinking of going along for a look and taking a picture or two, but on a moment's reflection I don't think I'll bother !!! Don't suppose your other half keeps a camera in the cab?

Kind regards,
Steve

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Last edited by Steve : 9th September 2007 at 10:31 AM.


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#467 9th September 2007, 10:43 AM
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Hi Steve,

Yes, he sometimes takes a camera to work (to capture illegal mini cabs!!!) so I'll ask him to take a picture next week and get my son to load it up for you (I'm no good with Jpeg etc!!).

Limehouse


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#468 9th September 2007, 11:08 AM
granger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve
Hi Granger

I thought the one on with the gun in his hand was Peter Alphon?

Seriously, though I used to enjoy watching Danger Man on the telly. I wish I could say I watched the repeats but the truth is I remember watching it first time around !!!

Rgds,
Steve


Off topic I know, but can you name the lady?


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#469 9th September 2007, 11:12 AM
Steve
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Hi Granger

She is Sylvia Syms.

KR
Steve

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Last edited by Steve : 9th September 2007 at 11:19 AM.


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#470 9th September 2007, 11:29 AM
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Quote:
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Hi Granger

She is Sylvia Syms.

KR
Steve


Nice try, but nope!

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#481 10th September 2007, 09:08 PM
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Hi Graham

Yes, I think I have the documentary you are thinking of on tape, and I agree it would be interesting to hear what the family has to say on the subject today.

KR
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#482 11th September 2007, 01:53 PM
maverick2005
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What happened on the 22nd August?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is my first post, and many thanks to all for providing such fascinating information on this case. I lived in Bedford in the late 60’s and early 70’s and was utterly bitten after reading Paul Foot’s book (I still have my first edition copy!!).

I believed fervently in Hanratty’s innocence, and this was reinforced by Paul Woffinden’s book and the TV programme “Mystery of Deadman’s Hill” and was fixated by the words at the end stating that the matter could be settled once and for all by testing the exhibits remaining at Scotland Yard for DNA.

Then the DNA tests were carried out – we cannot have it both ways I’m afraid – Hanratty was guilty. Leonard Miller’s book then came out and showed how it is possible to put a completely new slant on the whole case, that is that Hanratty’s movements from Tuesday morning on the 22nd August until the Friday evening when he sent the telegram from Liverpool were the subject of speculation with extremely shaky corroboration from the various “witnesses”. Case closed??? Not a hope!!

My current thoughts on the case concentrate around what happened in the time between Hanratty leaving the Vienna Hotel on the Tuesday morning (beyond doubt) and arriving at Dorney Reach that evening for the cornfield encounter. In his statement he said he went at first to Paddington station then realised it was the wrong one for Liverpool so went to Euston - this mistake is incredulous even for someone with learning difficulties. I think he went to Paddington and caught a train from there to the Maidenhead/Taplow area and mentioned Paddington in his statement in case someone came forward as having seen him.

OK, but what did he do in the hours in between??? Probably visited the Bear Hotel in Maidenhead since he mentioned that place to Storey and Gregsten but we are talking about a total duration of around ten hours in which to housebreak, check areas out for possible future burglaries, cinema….whatever. I do not think he would have returned to London then come back later but who knows???

Any body got any thoughts??


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#483 11th September 2007, 02:33 PM
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Hello Maverick2005

Welcome to the Casebook and welcome this Hanratty thread.

It’s Bob Woffinden‘s book, incidentally, not Paul.

And you are quite right, the DNA evidence proves that Hanratty was guilty. No doubt that you will have read other members’ opinions on how safe the results of the DNA testing were, but as things stand at the moment we have to accept that the DNA puts the question beyond doubt.

It is also true that Hanratty stated his intention to go from the Vienna to Euston, but found himself accidentally at Paddington. I agree that in all probability he got off the train either at Slough or at Taplow.

As to what he did in the hours between is anyone’s guess. I believe it is true to say that no burglaries were reported in the area, and there was no other evidence of Hanratty having committed crimes in the area. There are some big houses nearby, so it is quite possible that Hanratty was checking these out. He could also have visited Windsor where there are more big houses with good potential pickings to be had, and could well have travelled there by train.

I think you are right in thinking it unlikely he would have returned to London during the day. Far more likely he found a way to amuse himself in the Slough area. It could well be that he spent some of the day plucking up courage to do his first stick-up job.

What is interesting, though, is that no-one ever came forward to testify that they were 100% certain that Hanratty was in the area during the day. You would have thought someone would have seen him at some point during the day.

Kind regards
Steve


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#484 11th September 2007, 05:26 PM
Limehouse
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maverick2005
This is my first post, and many thanks to all for providing such fascinating information on this case. I lived in Bedford in the late 60’s and early 70’s and was utterly bitten after reading Paul Foot’s book (I still have my first edition copy!!).

I believed fervently in Hanratty’s innocence, and this was reinforced by Paul Woffinden’s book and the TV programme “Mystery of Deadman’s Hill” and was fixated by the words at the end stating that the matter could be settled once and for all by testing the exhibits remaining at Scotland Yard for DNA.

Then the DNA tests were carried out – we cannot have it both ways I’m afraid – Hanratty was guilty. Leonard Miller’s book then came out and showed how it is possible to put a completely new slant on the whole case, that is that Hanratty’s movements from Tuesday morning on the 22nd August until the Friday evening when he sent the telegram from Liverpool were the subject of speculation with extremely shaky corroboration from the various “witnesses”. Case closed??? Not a hope!!

My current thoughts on the case concentrate around what happened in the time between Hanratty leaving the Vienna Hotel on the Tuesday morning (beyond doubt) and arriving at Dorney Reach that evening for the cornfield encounter. In his statement he said he went at first to Paddington station then realised it was the wrong one for Liverpool so went to Euston - this mistake is incredulous even for someone with learning difficulties. I think he went to Paddington and caught a train from there to the Maidenhead/Taplow area and mentioned Paddington in his statement in case someone came forward as having seen him.

OK, but what did he do in the hours in between??? Probably visited the Bear Hotel in Maidenhead since he mentioned that place to Storey and Gregsten but we are talking about a total duration of around ten hours in which to housebreak, check areas out for possible future burglaries, cinema….whatever. I do not think he would have returned to London then come back later but who knows???

Any body got any thoughts??



Welcome Maverick, and well done on a brilliant first post. Your point about Hanratty claiming to have gone to the wrong station by mistake in case he was seen at Paddington is very interesting. If true, it shows that Hanratty was not as much as a fool as people believed.

You paint a realistic scenario. Having read Woffinden's description of Hanratty's movements and habits, I can just see Hanratty 'casing' the area, looking for houses and other buildings to rob and then later happening on the cornfield and the car. In this light, it is posible to see that perhaps Hanratty didn't plan the events, that he stumbled upon the situation and that he soon found himself out of his depth. Gregsten and Storey were, after all, articulate and educated and may have unnerved Hanratty.

You have certainly made me think. Thanks for that.

Limehouse


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#485 11th September 2007, 08:35 PM
Graham
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Evening Maverick.

I enjoyed reading your post - your take on the Hanratty Case is the same as mine. Initially (when it happened, in my case, even though I was still at school) I thought, So what? - he's guilty. It was such a barbaric crime that public opinion was 99.9% against Hanratty, and it's interesting that on the morning of his execution there were very few protestors outside the gates of Bedford Prison. Then, gradually, a few questions began to be asked, and one by one more and more distinguished lawyers and writers started to doubt the validity of the verdict. As an avid Private Eye reader, I was lapping up everything Paul Foot wrote about the case in his column. It seemed that every week there were new doubts aired as to the fairness of the verdict, and when John Lennon and Yoko Ono got involved - wow! That did it for me!
What very few people did not perceive in these heady days was that a number of rather shady figures were jumping onto the Hanratty bandwagon for the sake of taking a pop at the Establishment as it was in those days.
And then, of course, there was the baffling mystery of Alphon and his involvement....

The calls for DNA testing were loud, and I have to say that right up until the day the results were made public I still believed that there had been a miscarriage of justice. Leonard Miller's book did a lot to overturn old preconceptions, but even so I don't think he entirely answered all the questions surrounding this case. As Sherrard said at the trial, "This case is dripping with coincidences". Never was a truer word spoken. It also reeks of corruption, show-boating, hangers-on, and simple fiction. And also tragedy - never forget that many lives other than Hanratty's were damaged by this case. The Gregsten family, Valerie Storey, the Hanratty family, the France family - even Peter Alphon's parents to an extent.

Why did Hanratty do it? Who knows. I believe he was desperate to emulate the activities of the bad boys with whom he mixed (and who seemed to treat him with scorn) and he did it out of sheer bravado. Yes, he probably hung around Maidenhead and Taplow during the afternoon and early evening of the 22nd, gun in his pocket and being driven on by some urge to do something with it, and that by nightfall he simply tapped on the window of the first occupied car he came across, doubtless with the intention of simple armed robbery. Why it turned to murder and rape is in the realm of speculation. He had never run his life to any plan, had no self-discipline, had acted all his life on the spur of the moment, planned nothing, and it all came to a head when he found himself in the company of two educated people whose lifestyle he envied and knew he could never attain. Sorry if this is starting to sound like a glossy magazine portrayal! He did it because he'd dug himself a huge hole and didn't know how to get out of it. He couldn't resist the momentum.

His 'usual' beat for burglaries was the Stanmore/Harrow/Kingsbury area of London, so why on that day he chose Maidenhead/Slough is yet another unanswered question.

As Steve rightly points out, there were no certain sightings of Hanratty in the area either that day or previously, yet there were people who claimed to have seen someone who resembled Alphon ("Sidney Tafler" to one witness, an excellent description of Alphon) on more than one occasion prior to the 22nd. One more mystery.

Apologies for the length of this post, which I'll end now. I was almost 'away' then!

Cheers,

Graham


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#486 11th September 2007, 09:50 PM
Steve
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This is such a totally involving case (and totally involving thread) that every post makes you think again about the details of the A6 murder.

There is little to prove Hanratty’s guilt other than circumstantial evidence about buses and conversations, and sightings subsequently thoroughly disproved by incontrovertible later evidence. And the DNA!

‘Dripping with coincidences I have thought more than apt,’ on many occasions.

The whole A6 murder was a coincidence of coincidences.


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#487 11th September 2007, 10:09 PM
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Steve,

You're right! All the evidence against Hanratty was either circumstantial or based on identification - considered to be the most unreliable evidence of all. I believe that the crucial reasons why the jury found him guilty (to the plain, evident surprise of the judge) were:

1] the sight of Valerie in a wheel-chair;

2] Hanratty's sudden change of alibi (not permitted these days) half way through the trial;

3] the total destruction by Swanwick of Grace Jones' evidence (again, it's doubtful if such tactics Swanwick employed would be permitted today);

4] the major error made by his defence of allowing Hanratty to take the stand;

5] the withholding by Acott & Co of evidence that should have been passed to the defence (yet again, not permitted today).

And to this day I simply cannot understand why there was no forensic evidence found in the car! Was it really just the fact that in 1961/2 forensic science was crude compared with today?

I'm not trying to offer up excuses for Hanratty, but there is no doubt in my mind that his trial really was a farce.

Cheers,

Graham

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Last edited by Graham : 11th September 2007 at 10:13 PM.


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#488 12th September 2007, 07:39 PM
Steve
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Hi Graham

Yes, all these factors weighed against him at the trial, but don’t you think that he was up against a loaded gun even before the trial started? The weight of public opinion was against him, and to have the trial switched from the Old Bailey to Bedford didn’t help him one little bit.

I too am baffled by the lack of forensic evidence, or by the lack of any concrete evidence such as 100% positive sightings of Hanratty being at the cornfield, getting out of the Morris Minor, on the 36A bus, or anything else.

In the final analysis this didn’t matter; the police secured their conviction anyway.

Interesting to muse how this just could not happen in the same way today. Hanratty would have been photographed a dozen times as he drove from the A6 to London, more if he broke the speed limit en-route.

Times have changed.

Kind regards,
Steve


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#489 13th September 2007, 01:38 PM
larue
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hi Steve


Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve
but don’t you think that he was up against a loaded gun even before the trial started?


oh, he certainly was. everything that could be possibly be stacked up against him was.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve
Interesting to muse how this just could not happen in the same way today.


that's right mate... all you need today, is a hoody and a bmx bike!

atb

larue

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Last edited by larue : 13th September 2007 at 02:08 PM. Reason: added greeting


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#490 13th September 2007, 02:04 PM
larue
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hi Graham


Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham
And to this day I simply cannot understand why there was no forensic evidence found in the car! Was it really just the fact that in 1961/2 forensic science was crude compared with today?


the lack of evidence in the car is strange. reading Keith Simpson tells me the search for and importance of forensic evidence was crucial even in the 50's/60's. what i am sure of though, if anything whatever had been found in the car which would have clearly implicated JH, it would have been trumpetted by the police/prosecution.


referring to an earlier post of yours [#416]


Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham
I'd have to say that even in 1961 the police were very careful about handling forensic exhibits. I'm sure that the hankie must have been handled by at least one person - the bloke who found it wrapped around the gun - but once it was realised that it was a serious find, it must have been handled thereafter with tweezers, plastic bags, etc.


i would have agreed with this, but quoting Keith Simpson's book, i submit the following, not to be contentious, you understand, but just as an illustration...

18th February 1955

"Threats were exchanged, and both men rose to fight, but they were restrained, then they agreed to settle the matter outside. In the cobbled yard, each removed his coat and jacket, and they faced up to each other. There seemed little doubt that the soldier struck the first blow with his fist. What happened next had to be reconstructed after the event.

The certain fact is that when a patrolling constable heard the disturbance and went into the courtyard to investigate, it was empty except for the soldier, who was lying on his back stabbed in the throat.

The constable ought then to have called for a doctor, who would have found the soldier either dying, or more probably dead, and left the body undisturbed for photography to record the exact lie at death, and the positions of bloodstains, and of a knife lying on the ground. Unfortunately the constable summoned an ambulance, and a very different train of events began. On arrival at St Bart’s Hospital the body was merely certified ‘dead’ at 11.30 p.m. by a young house officer who then went back to his duties. The night porter removed the soldier’s clothing and stuffed it into a bin, then, without any care for possible contact traces of dirt, blood, hair, or fibres, put the naked body in a refrigerator, where it stayed for eight hours. Meanwhile the constable had picked up the knife and shown it to the café proprietor, who added his fingerprints to the constable’s. Medico-legally, it was a disastrous start to the case."

maybe not all officers were sufficiently trained or cognizant of the importance of forensic evidence. one would hope they are today...

atb

larue

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13th September 2007, 06:00 PM
Steve
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Quote:
Originally Posted by larue
.. all you need today, is a hoody and a bmx bike!




And a pay-as-you-go mobile phone?


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#492 13th September 2007, 06:07 PM
Steve
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Quote:
Originally Posted by larue
maybe not all officers were sufficiently trained or cognizant of the importance of forensic evidence. one would hope they are today...



Hi Larue

Keith Simpson and his colleagues certainly went to great pains to gather as much forensic evidence as possible at crime scenes, and Keith Simspon attended the scene of the A6 murder in the lay-by. Do you think, maybe, if he had also been invited to attend the detailed examination of the Morris Minor, more forensic evidence might have been found? Could it be that, because the actual crime scene was elsewhere the examination of the Minor was carried out less thoroughly? If so, it would reflect badly on the police of the day because one could reasonably argue that the true crime scene (apart from the shooting of Miss Storie) was inside the car.

Kind regards,
Steve


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#493 13th September 2007, 08:08 PM
Limehouse
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Very good point Steve. We have assumed that the car was as thoroughly examined but perhaps that was not the case. That might surely explain the complete lack of even a fibre belonging to the murderer.


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#494 13th September 2007, 08:48 PM
Steve
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Hi Limehouse

Has Mr Limehouse driven by the former Rehearsal Club with his camera yet?

KR
Steve


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#495 14th September 2007, 09:06 PM
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Steve,

It's very odd, but now I come to think about it, very little has actually been made public concerning the car and forensic evidence. Quite a few photos of the car itself have been published, but none of the interior. One question I asked ages ago is, that if according to the evidence Gregsten was shot through and through, twice, what other damage did the bullets cause? Or, per a comment by Stan Reid, did they just pass through the open window, assuming that it was open? I am not so ghoulish as to require post-mortem photos of Gregsten, but his son did say that his face was effectively blown off, so there must have been some considerable damage, blood-staining, etc. to the inside of the Morris. And what about fibre analysis? Were there no fibres found on the car's upholstery that could have been associated with Hanratty's clothes that night?

I get the distinct impression that there is a whole lot of police evidence, both photographic and written, that has never been made public and, one may assume, is lying in some dusty file somewhere. I've written to both Leonard Miller and the Bedfordshire police regarding this, but received no reply from either.

I agree with Larue that police forensic methodology in the early 1960's may well have been crude compared with today, but nevertheless I do find it hard to accept that they found nothing in the car. Which of course just boils down to the fact that all evidence against Hanratty was either circumstantial or via identity.

Cheers,

Graham


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#496 14th September 2007, 10:17 PM
Steve
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Hi Graham

It has to be said that the forensic evidence from the Morris Minor left a lot to be desired. In forensic evidence terms 1961 was not the cave age. Either the car was largely overlooked forensically as not being a crime scene or something more sinister was going on. Nothing was ever reported; even something as mundane as a leaf or soil from the cornfield must have been trampled into the car at some point; all three of them got in and out of the car at Dorney on more than one occasion. The gunman must have left forensic evidence of his several-hour occupation of the backseat. Even if he didn’t leave any evidence behind he must have carried some away with him. The Morris Minor was ‘undoubtedly bloodstained’ yet Hanratty apparently had no blood staining whatsoever to his Hepworth suit. Everyone remembered the Hepworth suit, apart from witnesses claiming to see Hanratty driving the Morris Minor. Even Miss Storie didn’t mention the striped Hepworth suit in her testimony. I rationalise this by assuming that Hanratty owned or had access to another suit which he wore during the crime and which was never mentioned during the investigation.

I remember the earlier discussion about the in-car ballistics; it is beyond belief that there was no evidence of bullets being fired in the car, it could reasonably be assumed that the windscreen was cracked or shattered. Yet no mention of this has ever been made. I lean more towards the belief that evidence was not withheld; more that it was not available because the Morris Minor was regarded at the time as of secondary significance to the investigation. The main concentration of enquiry was at the A6 lay-by and the physical injuries to Miss Storie.

Yes, guilty or innocent, Hanratty and his defence team were pushing water up hill!

It seems perhaps that the guilty man was convicted more through serendipity than the due course of justice.

Kind regards
Steve

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Last edited by Steve : 14th September 2007 at 10:30 PM.


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#497 15th September 2007, 05:51 PM
Limehouse
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Originally Posted by Steve
Hi Limehouse

Has Mr Limehouse driven by the former Rehearsal Club with his camera yet?

KR
Steve



Hi Steve, sorry he hasn't been in London much this week but I'll remind him to take the camera with him on Monday.

Limehouse


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#498 15th September 2007, 05:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve
Hi Graham

It has to be said that the forensic evidence from the Morris Minor left a lot to be desired. In forensic evidence terms 1961 was not the cave age. Either the car was largely overlooked forensically as not being a crime scene or something more sinister was going on. Nothing was ever reported; even something as mundane as a leaf or soil from the cornfield must have been trampled into the car at some point; all three of them got in and out of the car at Dorney on more than one occasion. The gunman must have left forensic evidence of his several-hour occupation of the backseat. Even if he didn’t leave any evidence behind he must have carried some away with him. The Morris Minor was ‘undoubtedly bloodstained’ yet Hanratty apparently had no blood staining whatsoever to his Hepworth suit. Everyone remembered the Hepworth suit, apart from witnesses claiming to see Hanratty driving the Morris Minor. Even Miss Storie didn’t mention the striped Hepworth suit in her testimony. I rationalise this by assuming that Hanratty owned or had access to another suit which he wore during the crime and which was never mentioned during the investigation.

I remember the earlier discussion about the in-car ballistics; it is beyond belief that there was no evidence of bullets being fired in the car, it could reasonably be assumed that the windscreen was cracked or shattered. Yet no mention of this has ever been made. I lean more towards the belief that evidence was not withheld; more that it was not available because the Morris Minor was regarded at the time as of secondary significance to the investigation. The main concentration of enquiry was at the A6 lay-by and the physical injuries to Miss Storie.

Yes, guilty or innocent, Hanratty and his defence team were pushing water up hill!

It seems perhaps that the guilty man was convicted more through serendipity than the due course of justice.

Kind regards
Steve


This is very strange because, wouldn't you think Hanratty's defence team would want to have had a thorough examination of the car? It makes you wonder whether the fact that no forecensic evidence was found in the ca was used as part of the defence. If that's the case, you would think the prosecution team would demand a thorough examination to be sure there was no evidence to link him to the crime. Either way, both teams seem to have simply accepted this very unlikely scenario.


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#499 15th September 2007, 06:17 PM
Steve
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Hi Limehouse

I don't believe that any such evidence was produced at the trial and knowing how much was withheld from the defence team I think it highly likely that they were not allowed access to the vehicle.

Rgds,
Steve


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#500 15th September 2007, 08:43 PM
Graham
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve
Hi Limehouse

I don't believe that any such evidence was produced at the trial and knowing how much was withheld from the defence team I think it highly likely that they were not allowed access to the vehicle.

Rgds,
Steve


Hi Steve and Limehouse,

Seems to me that the mainstay of the defence was that Hanratty was elsewhere on the night of 22 August, and therefore could not have been the A6 killer. It also seems to me that Sherrard based the defence upon Hanratty's 'Liverpool Alibi', and must have been convinced by it, however fundamentally shaky it appears to us now. And then, of course, Hanratty changed to his 'Rhyl Alibi' and with that the defence case collapsed to all intents and purposes. The police must have given details of the condition of the car, and the failure to find any forensic evidence, but it would seem that the defence didn't make all that much of this evidence (or lack of it). I have never read a full transcript of the trial, and haven't found one on the net - not to say that it isn't there, though. It must run to 100's if not 1000's of pages, as at that time it was the longest murder trial in British judicial history.

John Kerr, who attended the trial both as a witness and an interested party, said that he thought Hanratty's demeanour on the witness-stand was extremely cocky, as though he, Hanratty, was completely confident that there was insufficient evidence to convict him. This is suggestive of many factors, but possibly he and his defence were fully aware that there was no forensic evidence discovered in the car, therefore there was nothing apart from Valerie's i.d. to link him to the car and the crime. He changed his alibi only when it was clear to him that he couldn't prove he'd been in Liverpool at the critical time.

Who fancies writing to Michael Sherrard to ask if he'd be prepared to comment? I have a feeling he's still practising.

Cheers,

Graham

[larue]

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#501 16th September 2007, 08:14 PM
larue
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hi all

the car certainly is an interesting topic. for instance, who actually carried out the forensic examination [ if any ] the bedford police where the crime occured, the ilford police, where the car was recovered, or the cid? and was any/all evidence contaminated by various officers clambering all over it? what was the liason between the forces like? close, or competetive? it makes one wonder. Graham, i doubt that the post mortem photos will ever be made public, despite the freedom of information act, because of their very nature, but details of any damage to the interior of the car should have been noted, and will probably still exist somewhere.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham
Who fancies writing to Michael Sherrard to ask if he'd be prepared to comment? I have a feeling he's still practising.



i would be quite happy to do so, assuming i can locate a current address.

as for the trial transcript, i have been trying to obtain a copy of this, but so far unsucessfully. bedford assize court still have a copy, but as far as i was able to ascertain, this has not been transferred to a more convenient format, i.e. pdf, as yet, and as it runs to 620,000 words, i doubt if it ever will. if you call before hand, you can get to see it, but i was unable to find out if copying is possible. [ at 620,000 words, i would not undertake that job lightly. ]

atb

larue


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#502 16th September 2007, 08:41 PM
Steve
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Hello Larue

Forensics on the car were carried out by the Metropolitan Police. I don’t think that scenes of crime officers clambering over the car was a problem, even in those days the police did act professionally. But, yes, liaison between the forces was definitely an issue in 1961.

Post mortem pictures are unlikely to be made public (thank goodness) and the Instamatic pictures taken by Keith Simpson were his own personal property and so will form part of his estate. Their publication are again unlikely but dependent on the intentions of the estate’s executors.

As for interior photography of the car, perhaps an enquiry to Scotland Yard’s Black Museum might prove fruitful?

Michael Sherrard's address:

Michael David Sherrard QC
Director of Advocacy
Middle Temple
LONDON
NW3

Good luck! I hope he replies to your letter, please do let me know.

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Last edited by Steve : 16th September 2007 at 09:03 PM.


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#503 16th September 2007, 09:15 PM
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Hi Steve,

Where did you come by the knowledge that Keith Simpson took photos for his own personal records? Never seen this before. Were they of Gregsten, the car, both, or what?

It's very, very tempting to write to Sherrard - who's it gonna be?

Cheers,

Graham


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#504 16th September 2007, 09:37 PM
Steve
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Evening Graham

Keith Simpson wrote about the A6 murder in his autobiography Forty Years Of Murder, which is well worth a read.

He photographed Miss Storie's wounds in Bedford Hospital a few days after she had been shot. On reflection it is a shame that he didn't investigate any of the other crime scenes, don't you agree?

You have Michael Sherrard's address from from my previous post, so go for it. I hope he replies to your letter, please do let me know.


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#505 16th September 2007, 09:44 PM
Graham
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve
Evening Graham

Keith Simpson wrote about the A6 murder in his autobiography Forty Years Of Murder, which is well worth a read.

He photographed Miss Storie's wounds in Bedford Hospital a few days after she had been shot. On reflection it is a shame that he didn't investigate any of the other crime scenes, don't you agree?

You have Michael Sherrard's address from from my previous post, so go for it. I hope he replies to your letter, please do let me know.


Steve,

Thanks for this. Never read Simpson's book, but will look out for it.

Steve and Larue,

OK, if I write to Sherrard, give me some imput regarding questions. I know what I'd like to ask, but would like some feedback from you guys.

Cheers,

Graham


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#506 16th September 2007, 10:05 PM
Steve
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Graham

You are welcome to borrow my copy of Keith Simpson's Forty Years of Murder.

We need to ask Mr Sherrard about the evidence disclosed to the defence. Was any forensic evidence from the Morris Minor made availble to the defence? Perhaps with the passage of time he now knows more about the evidence produced from the murder vehicle? It would also be interesting to know if Mr Sherrard has any knowledge about what happened to the car after the police investigations had been concluded, and if he knows anything about the car's eventual fate. Black museum or scrapyard?

Very importantly, also, cracked windsreen or not?

Where did those spent bullets go?

The answer to this question is crucial to the overall investigation, don't you think?

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Last edited by Steve : 16th September 2007 at 10:08 PM.


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#507 16th September 2007, 10:11 PM
Graham
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve
Graham

You are welcome to borrow my copy of Keith Simpson's Forty Years of Murder.

We need to ask Mr Sherrard about the evidence disclosed to the defence. Was any forensic evidence from the Morris Minor made availble to the defence? Perhaps with the passage of time he now knows more about the evidence produced from the murder vehicle? It would also be interesting to know if Mr Sherrard has any knowledge about what happened to the car after the police investigations had been concluded, and if he knows anything about the car's eventual fate. Black museum or scrapyard?

Very importantly, also, cracked windsreen or not?

Where did those spent bullets go?

The answer to this question is crucial to the overall investigation, don't you think?


Steve,

This reflects the questions I have in mind for Mr Sherrard. I'd like to hear Larue's input before I put fingers to keyboard....unless of course he'd like to do the honours, in which case I'd be more than happy.

Michael Sherrard comes over to me as a very humane person, and one who is as puzzled as the rest of us as to why Hanratty did what he did.

Cheers,

Graham


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#508 16th September 2007, 10:16 PM
Steve
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham
Michael Sherrard comes over to me as a very humane person, and one who is as puzzled as the rest of us as to why Hanratty did what he did. Graham


I agree with this, Graham!


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#509 17th September 2007, 06:13 AM
larue
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hi Steve & Graham

i googled for Michael Sherrard, and got the same address as Steve. the date was 2003, relating to Mr Sherrard's CBE. i have no problem with writing to him, but would first like to make the following observations:

1. i think the first contact should only be concerned with whether or not he would be willing to discuss the case?

after all, he may well not want to, or ethically, may not be able to.

2. would it be better for more than one of us to write initially?

i am sure that, if he his still practising, any and all correspondance go through a secretarial filter. maybe more than one request might get through?

3. in the event he should agree to discuss, we should agree a list of questions, as few as possible, but which would cover as much ground as possible.

what are your thoughts on this?

ps

Graham.

keith simpson's book is available via abe books. i bought a really good copy a few weeks ago for 50p. it's an autobiography, and just mentions the a6 murder in passing, as it were.

atb

larue


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#510 17th September 2007, 08:59 AM
Steve
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Morning Larue

Not wanting to put words into your mouth, but why don’t you phrase your letter along these lines:

Dear Mr Sherrard

I write on behalf of several members of an internet forum with an interest in the A6 murder and the case against James Hanratty. We are all in agreement that the DNA evidence has proven beyond question that the court returned the correct verdict, but we do feel that the case against him was less than solid and still leaves many questions unanswered. We wish to enquire if you would be willing to reply to the following points which our members have been discussing:

? Did the defence team have access to the Morris Minor? As far as we are aware there was no forensic evidence produced as a result of the police investigations on the murder vehicle, yet we feel certain there must have been some evidence contained in the car, if only soil from the cornfield on the murderer’s shoes.

? Is anything known about what happened to the two spent bullets which killed Michael Gregsten? Nothing has ever been made public about this aspect of the crime. We have discussed the possibility of these bullets leaving the car through an open window, but this is a scenario that seems unlikely. We feel it is more likely that they hit the car windscreen in which case it would have sustained some damage.

? Are you able to provide any information about the final fate of the Morris Minor? We know that it belonged to Mr Gregsten’s aunt. Was it eventually returned to her, was it scrapped, or is it still in the possession of the Metropolitan Police?


If you would care to look at the on-line correspondence on the subject here is a link to the currrent thread:

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread...d=1#post107737

Any information you can provide would be gratefully received.

Yours sincerely
Larue


Any correspondence addressed personally to Mr Sherrard will get through to him, and if he is now retired it will be forwarded to his home address. Whether or not he chooses to reply is, or course, a different matter.


Good luck,
Steve

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Last edited by Steve : 17th September 2007 at 09:02 AM.

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17th September 2007, 11:55 AM
granger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve
Morning Larue

Not wanting to put words into your mouth, but why don’t you phrase your letter along these lines:

Dear Mr Sherrard

I write on behalf of several members of an internet forum with an interest in the A6 murder and the case against James Hanratty. We are all in agreement that the DNA evidence has proven beyond question that the court returned the correct verdict, but we do feel that the case against him was less than solid and still leaves many questions unanswered. We wish to enquire if you would be willing to reply to the following points which our members have been discussing:

? Did the defence team have access to the Morris Minor? As far as we are aware there was no forensic evidence produced as a result of the police investigations on the murder vehicle, yet we feel certain there must have been some evidence contained in the car, if only soil from the cornfield on the murderer’s shoes.

? Is anything known about what happened to the two spent bullets which killed Michael Gregsten? Nothing has ever been made public about this aspect of the crime. We have discussed the possibility of these bullets leaving the car through an open window, but this is a scenario that seems unlikely. We feel it is more likely that they hit the car windscreen in which case it would have sustained some damage.

? Are you able to provide any information about the final fate of the Morris Minor? We know that it belonged to Mr Gregsten’s aunt. Was it eventually returned to her, was it scrapped, or is it still in the possession of the Metropolitan Police?


If you would care to look at the on-line correspondence on the subject here is a link to the currrent thread:

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread...d=1#post107737

Any information you can provide would be gratefully received.

Yours sincerely
Larue


Any correspondence addressed personally to Mr Sherrard will get through to him, and if he is now retired it will be forwarded to his home address. Whether or not he chooses to reply is, or course, a different matter.


Good luck,
Steve


Hi Steve

Good letter, but with respect, wouldn't it be better, at this juncture, just to enquire as to whether or not he wishes to discuss the case. I am sure that members may want to address more questions than the three you have inferred was all we wanted to know.

I personally do not go along with your statement that we all agree that the verdict was correct, ( I don't), and you somewhat condradict yourself in saying the case against Hanratty was somewhat 'less than solid'. Are you really saying that although Hanratty was definitely guilty, some of the evidence against him was either legally inadmissable, or somewhat shaky to say the last?

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Last edited by granger : 17th September 2007 at 12:02 PM.


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#512 17th September 2007, 12:04 PM
granger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve
Hello Larue

...........As for interior photography of the car, perhaps an enquiry to Scotland Yard’s Black Museum might prove fruitful?.................




I have always been positive that somewhere I have seen a picture of the actual vehicle, but none appears in any of the books I have read. However, I have only just noticed that the cover of Bob Woffiden's, 'Hanratty, The Final Verdict' does have a picture of part of the Morris Minor, with half of the registration plate showing. The split screen looks intact although it could be possible that the photograph was taken of the MM before the murder, as the car, from what you can see, looks in pristine condition, although the number plate looks bent back, as mentioned in the police (?) report made after the car was found.

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#513 17th September 2007, 12:28 PM
Steve
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Hello Granger

If Mr Sherrard replies to one letter it will be a result, can’t believe that he would enter into a lengthy correspondence.

The draft letter was only a suggestion, I don’t think Larue will mind if you or anyone else would like something different including.

And yes, it is a matter of fact that the case against Hanratty was less than solid. It was based only on circumstantial evidence and witness identification, and the jury were aware of some of the shortcomings of the prosecution’s case at the time of the trial. This doesn’t alter the fact that Hanratty was guilty. (In my humble opinion!)

Rgds,
Steve


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#514 17th September 2007, 12:38 PM
Steve
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Quote:
Originally Posted by granger
the cover of Bob Woffiden's, 'Hanratty, The Final Verdict' does have a picture of part of the Morris Minor


Hi Granger

I don't know for sure when the photo was taken or if it was taken by a police photographer or a press photographer, but I would presume it to have been taken in Avondale Crescent.

Bob Woffinden's publishers were right to use the image on the book cover. The Morris Minor has become an iconic part of the case.

Rgds,
Steve


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#515 17th September 2007, 12:54 PM
granger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve
Hi Granger

I don't know for sure when the photo was taken or if it was taken by a police photographer or a press photographer, but I would presume it to have been taken in Avondale Crescent.

Bob Woffinden's publishers were right to use the image on the book cover. The Morris Minor has become an iconic part of the case.

Rgds,
Steve


Hi Steve: Why then does everyone query whether there was any damage to the windscreen? If the picture was taken at the scene, by whoever, then it proves conclusively there was no damage, which is strange.

PS: I hadn't questioned the use of the photogragh on the cover of the book.

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#516 17th September 2007, 01:00 PM
Steve
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Hi Granger

Good point!

Regarding the use of the picture I was just making an observation.

Rgds,
Steve


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#517 20th September 2007, 10:20 PM
Steve
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The Vienna Hotel

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In August 1961 the door on the right was the entrance to the The Vienna Hotel. Alphon and Hanratty both passed through this doorway.
Attached Images


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Last edited by Steve : 20th September 2007 at 10:23 PM.


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#518 21st September 2007, 12:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve
In August 1961 the door on the right was the entrance to the The Vienna Hotel. Alphon and Hanratty both passed through this doorway.


Hi Steve. Great photo, so the place is now a private residence. I gather Room 24, where the cartridges were found, was in the basement. At the front?

I have tried a Google search for the Alexandra Park Hotel in Finsbury Park where Alphon stayed after his stopover at The Vienna. Nothing comes up, so any idea what that place is now?

Cheers

Granger


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#519 21st September 2007, 03:31 PM
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Steve,

That's an excellent photo, mate! The property has either been cleaned up a good deal since 1961, or maybe it was never quite the run-down doss-house it was described as. Somehow, I don't think Hanratty would lower himself to stay at just any old doss-house. I wonder what The Vienna Hotel is worth today....

Granger,

I think the basement room(s) was (were) at the rear of the property, as it or they looked out over some kind of park, as I recall.

Also, excellent point re: the windscreen of the MM. There are views of the car on at least one of the TV documentaries about Hanratty, but only the exterior. I would guess that the inside was not considered fit viewing for the general public.


Been away most of this week and only managed to get onto the computer this morning for a few minutes, so I have some catching up to do on this and other thread. However, if I get a moment, I'll draft a letter to Michael Sherrard over the weekend and e-mail it for comments.

Cheers,

Graham


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#520 21st September 2007, 03:35 PM
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Steve,

I forgot to mention apropos the Vienna. When I was a nipper relations of mine ran a hotel/boarding-house in Cliftonville, and in the 1950's when we went for hols it was immaculately kept, and Uncle Harry was very careful about who stayed there. When I saw it two years ago it was very obviously a DSS hostel, and badly run-down, dirty and unkempt, and reminded me in a way of the Vienna as I always pictured it. Not that it matters, just a comment.

Cheers,

Graham