a6 murder

[Limehouse]

Hi Jimarylin,

I can identify with your belief that their affair was the cause of gunman appearing in the field and quite understand your belief that it was not a chance encounter.

I also think it is understandable that you should question the differences in Miss Storie's apparently differing descriptions of the murderer.

There is almost certainly more to this crime than has been revealed but I think that with such a long passage of time, nothing new is likely to emerge.

[Tony]

Hi Steve,

I am sure I actually said I thought the killer was a psychopath and then (I think it was you) someone suggested that if I accepted that Hanratty was the killer, I must therefore accept he was a psychopath. Although I am not wholly convinced he was the killer (about 80%) I must, of course, accept the possibility that Hanrattyy was also a psychopath. This does not really change my belief that he was dyslexic and that certain aspects of that undiagnosed dyslexia caused certain behaviour patterns. If we conclude that Hanratty was the killer and that he was a psycopath, he might still feel that was important for his family to see him as blameless and he would certainly have been unable to accept responsibility for his actions.

Hello Limehouse,

I am much, much less than 80% certain of Hanratty’s guilt. There are too many things that I can’t explain to myself. They are just too many to list. I know everyone says that at the trial, on the presented evidence, he should have been found not guilty. But things and events since, in my mind at any rate, have tended to back Hanratty’s story and some of the coincidences; well if you made them into a film it would close after the first night. People would be walking out saying: “who wrote rubbish like this?”
“What he murders and rapes and then leaves the gun on the bus after telling his mate that’s where he leaves things? The mate nips off to tell the cops and then tops himself. Why not leave a signed confession? Leave it out do you think we’re daft?”
It is just incredible.

I am also very suspicious, like Larue, of the DNA. Only his profile is there after 40 years the rest has vanished. What’s that all about? Very convenient.

The only things new to emerge will be if anyone manages to uncover more police investigations that have been hidden from the defence or there are more improvements with regards to DNA testing. But I bet you all the DNA stuff was destroyed as soon as the Court of Appeal delivered its verdict.
I doubt if Valerie Storie will add anything and why should she?

But you never know someone might eventually clock off from this world and a couple of cartridge cases might be found amongst his possessions. Now that would take a bit of explaining.

Tony

[jimarilyn]

Hello Limehouse,

I am much, much less than 80% certain of Hanratty’s guilt. There are too many things that I can’t explain to myself. They are just too many to list. I know everyone says that at the trial, on the presented evidence, he should have been found not guilty. But things and events since, in my mind at any rate, have tended to back Hanratty’s story and some of the coincidences; well if you made them into a film it would close after the first night. People would be walking out saying: “who wrote rubbish like this?”
“What he murders and rapes and then leaves the gun on the bus after telling his mate that’s where he leaves things? The mate nips off to tell the cops and then tops himself. Why not leave a signed confession? Leave it out do you think we’re daft?”
It is just incredible.

I am also very suspicious, like Larue, of the DNA. Only his profile is there after 40 years the rest has vanished. What’s that all about? Very convenient.

The only things new to emerge will be if anyone manages to uncover more police investigations that have been hidden from the defence or there are more improvements with regards to DNA testing. But I bet you all the DNA stuff was destroyed as soon as the Court of Appeal delivered its verdict.
I doubt if Valerie Storie will add anything and why should she?

But you never know someone might eventually clock off from this world and a couple of cartridge cases might be found amongst his possessions. Now that would take a bit of explaining.

Tony

Excellent post Tony if I may so. I too am very suspicious of the DNA. I get the strong impression that the Political/Legal Establishment wanted closure in this case. The Hanratty family and their supporters must have been a right thorn in it's side. This faceless Establishment has far too much power in my opinion (no I'm not advocating anarchy) and often insults the public's intelligence and treats it with disdain. Re. the DNA tests I'm sure that where there's a WILL (political or legal) there's a WAY. The scientists who carried out these tests are only as good as the very suspect 40 year old exhibits they were given.

[JIMBOW]

Just re-watched the Horizon documentary 'The A6 murder' and was wondering why, as late as 2002, John Kerr was still saying that when he encountered the wounded Valerie Storie on that fateful morning and asked her what had happened she replied (something to the effect) - 'We picked up a man near Slough around 9.30 and he drove us here'. Surely every man and his dog knows that the killer was not 'picked up' but rather tapped on the car window as it was parked and also that Michael Gregsten did the driving? I find it baffling that Kerr would say as he did.

[Steve]

But you never know someone might eventually clock off from this world and a couple of cartridge cases might be found amongst his possessions. Now that would take a bit of explaining.

Tony

Hi Tony

Who knows what new evidence might emerge in years to come. Judging by the popularity of this thread the A6 murder case will continue to be talked about for a very long time to come. New people are discovering this thread on the internet all the time and some of them might be able to make a significant contribution. Who would have guessed in 1888 that the Whitechapel murders would be still being debated 120 years later, and that new material would emerge so many years after the original crimes.

Kind regards,
Steve

[Steve]

Just re-watched the Horizon documentary 'The A6 murder' and was wondering why, as late as 2002, John Kerr was still saying that when he encountered the wounded Valerie Storie on that fateful morning and asked her what had happened she replied (something to the effect) - 'We picked up a man near Slough around 9.30 and he drove us here'. Surely every man and his dog knows that the killer was not 'picked up' but rather tapped on the car window as it was parked and also that Michael Gregsten did the driving? I find it baffling that Kerr would say as he did.

He was just relating his conversation with Valerie Storie - he wasn't making a statement of fact, merely giving his recollection of the events of the day.

[richardnunweek]

Hi Guys,
The Hanratty thread, at the moment is on a good par with this site dedicated to JTR.
It is a fantastic thread, that sets out to present the actual facts that resulted in a trial, and a conviction, that led one James Hanratty to die by hanging.
Was he guilty?
DNA, suggests Yes.
However, there are many aspects that over the years have presented themselves to suggest otherwise.
The majority of us are reluctant to simply accept the ABC, account of Valeries statement[ which there are many dubious recollections] and I feel strongly that any cover up to protect, the powers that be, should be released, simply because in the case of Hanratty/ Evans/ Bentley, there is reasons for suggestion, that 'Miscarriage of Justice' was in evidence.
Why such passion, on my part?
We have a dead man M G.
We have a badly wounded young lady, Valerie Storey,
That resulted in the conviction/death of James H.
We have the pilgrimage of the Hanratty family for countless years, two who ever would listen, to their absolute belief in James innocence, from day one..
The fundamental question, which I would say, despite DNA, Is simply 'stiill open to much debate,'
Best Regards .
Richard.

[Steve]

'stiill open to much debate,'

Long may the debate continue!

[Rigby]

...I believe that Michael Gregsten's extra marital affair with Miss Storie was instrumental and pivotal to a hired gunman being sent to Dorney Reach to put an end to their relationship.

But how many names are in the frame for being the one who put that gunman up to do the job ?

[Rigby]

Long may the debate continue!

Best thread on Casebook. This and it's lamented predecessor.

[Steve]

Hi Rigby

Yes, shame about the old thread - would never have thought it would all disappear so suddenly. I suppose it could well happen again, so I am saving as many postings as possible, just in case!

KR
Steve

[Rigby]

I think I mentioned it on the old thread but I did manage to get some of the A6-related archives held at Kew made open to the public. No great task; ones just files a request. Some files still remain closed and one is "lost". Whether there is anything of interest in them I don't know because two years later I still haven't been down to peek ! Anyway, this is what came back:

MEPO 2/9720: A6 murder: question of new evidence in the case of James Hanratty

We are also pleased to tell you that in consultation with the Metropolitan Police department it has been decided that a redacted version of MEPO 2/9720 can now be made available for public viewing from 28th July 2006.

Unfortunately, some of the information in MEPO 2/9720 is covered by an exemption. This means that we cannot give you all of the information. We have set out details below of which exemption we have applied and why:

We have applied the section 40 exemption to some of the information you want. This section exempts personal information about a third party (that is, someone other than the enquirer), if revealing it would break the terms of the Data Protection Act 1998, or if the person that the information relates to would not have a right to know about it or a right of access to it under that Act (because of its exemption provisions). The 1998 Act prevents personal information being released if, for example, it would be unfair or at odds with the reason why it was collected, or where the individual whom the information was about had properly served notice that releasing it would cause major and unnecessary damage or distress.

What the exemption covers: several pages from an alleged transcript of conversations between private individuals. Why the exemption applies: These pages attribute certain political views to private individuals who were indirectly connected to the investigation for the A6 murder for which James Hanratty was found guilty. Political opinions are classed as sensitive personal data under the Data Protection Act 1998. It would be unfair, and therefore a breach of the first data protection principle, to release these alleged opinions to the general public. The individual expressing his views would not have expected them to be recorded in any way, or that they would end up in a public record available to the general public.

CRIM 1/3814: Defendant: HANRATTY, James Charge: Rape and murder

We are pleased to tell you that, in consultation with HM Courts Services department, it has been decided that CRIM 1/3814 may now be made available at The National Archives, Kew. The file can be ordered and viewed at the National Archives from 28th July 2006.

MEPO 2/11337: Report concerning offences of fraud and hire purchase frauds committed by Peter Louis ALPHON

and

DPP 2/4039: ALPHON, Peter Louis: S66 Post Office Act 1953. Threatening telephone calls to Lord RUSSELL

I am pleased to tell you that in consultation with the Crown Prosecution Service it has been decided that a redacted version of DPP 2/4039 can now be made available for public viewing from 2nd August 2006. Information on how to access this document is given below.

The Freedom of Information Act 2000 gives you two rights of access when you write to us asking for information. You have the right to know whether we hold the information that you are looking for, and you have the right to have the information given to you. These rights may only be overridden if the information you are looking for is covered by an exemption in the Act.

Unfortunately, some of the information in DPP2/4039, and all of the information in MEPO2/11337 is covered by an exemption. This means that we cannot give you all/any of the information. We have set out details below of which exemption we have applied and why:

We have applied the section 40 exemption to some of the information you want. This section exempts personal information about a third party (that is, someone other than the enquirer), if revealing it would break the terms of the Data Protection Act 1998, or if the person that the information relates to would not have a right to know about it or a right of access to it under that Act (because of its exemption provisions). The 1998 Act prevents personal information being released if, for example, it would be unfair or at odds with the reason why it was collected, or where the individual whom the information was about had properly served notice that releasing it would cause major and unnecessary damage or distress.

In DPP 2/4039 this exemption applies to several pages which attribute certain political views to private individuals who were indirectly connected to the investigation for the A6 murder for which James Hanratty was found guilty. Political opinions are classed as sensitive personal data under the Data Protection Act 1998. It would be unfair, and therefore a breach of the first data protection principle, to release these alleged opinions to the general public. The individual expressing his views would not have expected them to be recorded in any way, or that they would end up in a public record available to the general public.

This file also contains medical information about another individual. Information about an individual's mental or physical health is classed as sensitive personal data under the Data Protection Act 1998. It would be unfair, and therefore a breach of the first data protection principle, to release these details, as the individual concerned would have an expectation that his medical information would be treated confidentially. Release of the information could cause the individual damage or distress.

MEPO 2/11337 contains information about alleged criminal activity. The allegations have never been proven in a court of law; the individual concerned has not had an opportunity to refute the allegations and clear his name. The release would therefore be unfair and could cause damage and distress to the individual. This criminal activity is not connected to the A6 murder case.

Also asked for ASSI 13/534: Murder: Hanratty, James (capital) which I think was the only other file still closed. Usually, the ASSI files are court docs but often have interesting other items and copiouos marginalia. They replied:

I am sorry to tell you that this record has been classified as Missing. This means that the record has been misplaced and cannot be located. This may have happened at The National Archives or whilst the record was in the temporary possession of the government department that originally transferred it to us.

It is rare that a record will go missing. We will not classify records as Missing until we have taken all reasonable steps to locate it. We carry out searches using information about previous uses of the record held by our Document Ordering and Records Information System (DORIS). DORIS holds information dating back to 1999 so where a record was classified as missing before 1999 it is unlikely that sufficient data existed to carry out the same degree of searching. However, staff are always alert to the possibility of finding missing documents and this does happen on occasion.

[Steve]

Hi Rigby

So much for the freedom of information act! This tells us nothing except that it seems the act has served to increase bureaucracy!

Kind regards,
Steve

[Graham]

Hi Rigby,

Brick wall aside, here's my sincere appreciation for your effort. As Steve says, it seems that the FOIA isn't that at all!

Missing file...hmmm. Such things get the conspiracy-theorists all hot and bothered...and perhaps with very good reason.

Got to do some work for a while, but will be back later.

Again, many thanks.

Cheers,

Graham

[jimarilyn]

Things I would love to see or hear (Wishful thinking)

Extremely unlikely :


1) Full transcript of the trial.

2) Charles France's deathbed writings.

3) Jean Justice's recordings of Alphon's phone conversations.

4) John Lennon's 40 minute documentary film about the A6 Murder Committee's Campaign.

5) All the police files relating to the A6 murder.

6) John Kerr's missing census form on which he wrote down what Valerie Storie told him.

7) Peter Alphon's bank statements from 1961 to 1962.

8) William Ewer's bank statements from 1961 to 1962.