a6 murder

[Natalie Severn]

How do you know? Perhaps you would like to tell that to some of the people still there who know he was definitely there because they saw him there---together with those who have sons and daughters still aggrieved about hearing their dead parents called liars-and believe me they are quite angry about it and I don"t think they would be too chuffed to hear you telling them their mothers or fathers didnt see someone they were or are quite certain they did see! You might get biffed like a certain Mr P did in Rhyl a few years back!

[Graham]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes,apparently Hanratty did try to find Terry and he wasn"t around!He wasn"t in Rhyl that week.

Neither was Hanratty.

Graham

[Natalie Severn]

Yes,apparently Hanratty did try to find Terry and he wasn"t around!He wasn"t in Rhyl that week.
So Hanratty goes round to his house and explains to his wife he is the bloke who nicked Terry"s shoes and let him down over the job he got him at the Fairground.He needs to contact him about a gold watch thats burning a hole in his pocket----I think he might have got the order of the boot from a baffled Mrs Evans!

[Graham]

Hi Norma,

There were several writers who contributed and its not clear who wrote the chapter.Why do you have to rubbish Colin Wilson now?

I wasn't rubbishing him, not at all. But you ought to know as a Ripper afficianado that Colin sometimes, shall we say, lets his enthusiasm overtake him. If Evans really was away during the week commencing 22 August 1961, then I'd very much like to see some proof of that claim.

Hanratty stayed with Terry one night in Rhyl and not only did he keep the shoes Terry loaned him he also let him down over the job.I just can"t understand why you think it would have been that easy for Hanratty to go knocking on his door

Evans was known as a fence of stolen goods. If Hanratty really was in Rhyl when he claimed to be, then what more natural than to try and contact a bloke who could help him to shift his watch and whatever else he had on him?

Yes, Evans did speak up for Hanratty, and I don't knock him for that. Maybe it was a case of 'honour amongst thieves'.

Graham

[Natalie Severn]

Graham,
There were several writers who contributed and its not clear who wrote the chapter.Why do you have to rubbish Colin Wilson now?
I know that the taxi belonging to Terry Evans had been moved that week as it has been written about by both Foot and Woffinden.
Hanratty stayed with Terry one night in Rhyl and not only did he keep the shoes Terry loaned him he also let him down over the job.I just can"t understand why you think it would have been that easy for Hanratty to go knocking on his door!
As it was Terry proved a good friend and spoke up for Hanratty in court ---though he was not willing to admit to the police that he knew people who would have bought the gold watch Hanratty was trying to sell.

[babybird67]

I have studied linguistics at post-graduate level and several times a year I give lectures to teachers training to be literacy specialists on aspects of linguistices - including dialects. I think I am more than qualified to comment on accents and their distribution and distinctions at this particular time in our recent history.

By all means do so then. I look foward to reading your next posting with your references and figures relating to how conversant the Liverpudlians of the 1960s were with Scots, Welsh and London accents.

If you think that Welsh and Scottish accents sounds similar you'd better get your lugholes examined.

They do to some people. Because they are both Celtic dialects.

http://www.cs.stir.ac.uk/~kjt/general/scots.html

See especially:

A visitor to Scotland is most likely to come across standard English pronounced in the local fashion. However Scotland has its own distinct language, with similar roots to English but also affinities to Scandinavian languages. Apart from the Scots Tongue, Scotland also claims a second language - Gaelic (which has affinities to Irish Gaelic, Welsh, ancient Cornish and Breton). (my emphasis)

Hmmmm broad London accents don't seem to have the same affinities though. Strange for a self professed expert linguist not to understand that Gaelic languages and dialects can share commonalities and maybe sound similar to some people.

Acott was convinced that Mrs Dinwoodie had indeed met Hanratty. How many people do you think were asking precisely for 'Carlton or Tarlton Road' in sweetshops in Scotland Road in the summer of 1961?

Acott was also convinced Hanratty did it. So can we accept his certainty on that now too?

[babybird67]

and here Jen is another example of you, making the sort of statement one can expect from idiots who think they are incredibly bright but are actually incredibly stupid.

LOL!

[Graham]

Yes,Graham---its in "The Mystery of Deadman"s Hill"-Colin Wilson contributed to the article.
Best

Hmmm - not a mention of it in either Foot or Woffinden. I wonder where Colin Wilson got that from? Mind, old Colin never did let facts get in the way of a decent story!

All I could find was that Evans was no longer parking his taxi-cab at the place known as The Circus, which I think was Woffinden's way of saying that Hanratty had looked but couldn't find him. Yet Hanratty had by his own admission been to his house on his genuine visit to Rhyl, when he'd nicked a pair of shoes, so one must assume that he knew where Evans lived. All of which adds to the general sense of his Rhyl "Alibi" being so much bollocks.... And of course Evans was the bully-boy who frightened the newspaper seller Charlie Jones into saying that he'd seen Hanratty.

Graham

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Norma,



Can you please tell me where you came across this piece of information?

Thanks,

Graham

Yes,Graham---its in "The Mystery of Deadman"s Hill"-Colin Wilson contributed to the article.
Best

[Graham]

Hi Norma,

By the way,re Terry Evans ,who you mentioned last night;Evans was out of Rhyl between the 19th and 26th August---the entire and only week he was away that year!That was why Hanratty could find no trace of him

Can you please tell me where you came across this piece of information?

Thanks,

Graham

[Natalie Severn]

Graham,
I know Mr and Mrs Hanratty were devout Catholics and that Hanratty was being visited almost daily by two or three priests and a nun who were convinced of his innocence---the nun even wrote to the pope asking him to intervene over the execution.Reading through his last letters it becomes clear that Hanratty was dealing with his ordeal with growing strength and dignity mentioned by all those who came into contact with him, his warders as well as other officials who had reason to visit him.So its just possible that what he told Micheal Sherrard was the truth and that he was gaining strength from these healing people-his parents, warders and the religious people who were supporting him.If this was so then he was also gaining strength from telling the truth and from his belief in God and therefore anything other than the truth was to be rejected as the trial drew to a close.His conscience clear, he would go with the truth about Rhyl---come what may.
By the way,re Terry Evans ,who you mentioned last night;Evans was out of Rhyl between the 19th and 26th August---the entire and only week he was away that year!That was why Hanratty could find no trace of him.
-not forgetting Michael Sherrard who was no con man and while warning him of the consequences of changing his alibi,nevertheless gave him every support he could throughout.

[Graham]

Hello everyone!

And how are we all tonight, eh?

I've just come in from a rather indifferent curry, and I've got a bottle of even less different plonk beside me, so I'm not in the best of moods, but even so I think one or two of us might care to bear in mind Admin's post of a day or two ago. I think Admin meant it.

On the subject of accents, just one small comment: I'm a Brummie and have a Brummie accent. On more than one occasion over the years I've been in the Soft South and have had clueless Southerners take me for a Scouser (which is a terrible insult to a Brummie) because they can't tell the difference. I therefore suggest, meekly, that perhaps Mrs D may not have been able to tell the difference between a Jock and a Taff accent, as she was between the two camps, so to speak.

I would also just like to say that, IMHO, when Hanratty agreed that he'd told France that the back seat of a bus, etc., etc., and also when he identified the hankie as his, poor Sherrard must have, figuratively, held his head in his hands. Cf: an old Blackadder episode:

Blackadder: Baldric, deny everything.
Baldric: OK
Clerk of court: Are you Private Baldric?
Baldric: No!

Perhaps Sherrard advised Hanratty to answer truthfully all the questions put to him....

Graham

[Limehouse]

Pure conjecture. How do you know what people in general, let alone Mrs Dinwoodie in particular, were used to hearing? I work on the telephones and speak to people all over all the time. I can instantly tell where a lot come from. How do you know Mrs Dinwoodie, working in a shop in a port area, didnt have the same experience?



Please do. Would be interested in what it says.



Nope. Scots and Welsh are both Celtic accents. They can sound similar. What is clear is that they both sound incredibly DISsimilar to London accents.

Whoever the man in that shop was, it was not Hanratty.

I have studied linguistics at post-graduate level and several times a year I give lectures to teachers training to be literacy specialists on aspects of linguistices - including dialects. I think I am more than qualified to comment on accents and their distribution and distinctions at this particular time in our recent history. If you think that Welsh and Scottish accents sounds similar you'd better get your lugholes examined.

Acott was convinced that Mrs Dinwoodie had indeed met Hanratty. How many people do you think were asking precisely for 'Carlton or Tarlton Road' in sweetshops in Scotland Road in the summer of 1961?

[Natalie Severn]

Because he was thick. He couldn't steal cars properly, he couldnt steal anything properly he was always getting caught. He thought people would fall for the, 'I might be a criminal but i'm no killer trick' and he was right, some people have!

and here Jen is another example of you, making the sort of statement one can expect from idiots who think they are incredibly bright but are actually incredibly stupid.

[babybird67]

I am not missing the point at all. You are missing the point. In Bedfordshire and places closer to London - especially at that time - people were more accustomed to hearing London accents than people living further north - who encountered London accents less often. Therefore - it is perfectly possible for a person in Liverpool not to instantly recognise a broad London accent.

Pure conjecture. How do you know what people in general, let alone Mrs Dinwoodie in particular, were used to hearing? I work on the telephones and speak to people all over all the time. I can instantly tell where a lot come from. How do you know Mrs Dinwoodie, working in a shop in a port area, didnt have the same experience?

It is clear that Valerie could identify a broad London accent because she described the attacker as 'having a Cockney accent'. That is why she asked the membvers of the line-up (after deliberating for 20 minutes) to speaK. Now - it is strongly argued (and I think it is mentioned in one of the books - I'll check later) that Hanratty's accent stood out because he was the only London-based man in the line-up.

Please do. Would be interested in what it says.

As for your 'rubbish as usual' comment - it is perfectly clear that someone based in Liverpool would hear Welsh particularly - and Scottish accents possibly - more often than they would hear London accents. If the lady in question could not distinguish between Welsh and Scottish - it is reasonably safe to assume she does not have a good ear for accents. That is a perfectly logical conclusion.

Nope. Scots and Welsh are both Celtic accents. They can sound similar. What is clear is that they both sound incredibly DISsimilar to London accents.

Whoever the man in that shop was, it was not Hanratty.