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  • Graham
    replied
    In any trial, the accused can come up with any alibi he fancies, but on the strict understanding that it is the duty of the prosecution to try and disprove it. It seems very reasonable to assume that in Hanratty's case the jury believed that the prosecution did indeed prove that the Rhyl "alibi" was so much nonsense.

    Mr Justice Gorman, in his summing-up, said that Swanwick referred to the Liverpool Alibi as possibly being 'bought', something not unknown amongst rogues. However, Gorman then said that if the Liverpool Alibi, or more specifically Hanratty's claim that he was in a sweet-shop asking directions, really was 'bought', then how did he know that someone (according to Mrs Dinwoody) really did call in and ask for directions to somewhere, even though there was confusion as to precisely what day this happened? In other words, the learned judge was telling the jury that he thought the Liverpool Alibi had some basis. This reinforces my long-held opinion that Hanratty should've stuck to his Liverpool Alibi, and not gone off on a flight of fancy about Rhyl, which really is palpable nonsense, which not even his defence team believed. He was, as ever, the architect of his own downfall.

    Graham

    Graham
    Last edited by Graham; 01-29-2011, 09:42 PM.

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  • Victor
    replied
    Originally posted by Derrick View Post
    The judge Mr Gorman made the jury well aware that a lack of alibi was no indication of guilt.

    You seem to be hung up on the opposite as being true.
    Hi Derrick,

    A lack of alibi is not an indication of guilt, it's the lack of indication of innocence! It's all the other evidence that indicates guilt, but this recent discussion has centred on Rhyl which is just another lie spun by Hanratty.

    KR,
    Vic

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  • Graham
    replied
    Derrick,

    what I posted are not my points; they are what Hanratty told his defence regarding his claim to be in Rhyl on the night in question. You can read in Woffinden, paperback edition, Pages 127 - 8. If you don't believe it, then take it up with Woffinden, not me.

    You give the impression that anyone speaking up for Hanratty, however remotely, is to be fully believed, whereas anyone else is a damn liar.

    Graham

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  • babybird67
    replied
    Originally posted by Derrick View Post
    Mr Murray (with Messrs Dutton and Larman) wasn't interviewed by Douglas Nimmo in his oh so thorough Rhyl alibi investigation. Whitewash.


    Derrick

    Didn't the Defence team send someone to investigate the Rhyl alibi?

    Leave a comment:


  • Derrick
    replied
    Originally posted by Graham View Post
    Very briefly, because all this has been posted before, this is what Hanratty told his defence about his claimed visit to Rhyl:

    1] He arrived by bus in the evening. (The only bus he could have got from Liverpool arrived at Rhyl at 8.19pm and at least one of the Rhyl "witnesses" claimed to have seen him or someone resembling him before this time).

    2] He knew Terry Evans as "John" and said he tried to contact him to fence some stuff for him. He didn't go to the fairground because he'd walked out of a job there during his previous (genuine) visit to Rhyl. He didn't say if he had been to Evans' house, but he did say that he considered the shoes he'd taken as a gift, implying that there was no reason he couldn't have gone to Evans' house.

    3] When he couldn't find Evans he began to search for a room. (This in itself weakens a lot of the evidence of the "witnesses" because it nullifies the times some of them said they saw Hanratty around Kinmell Street area).

    4] The next day he went to Dixie's cafe he said he knew Evans used, but he wasn't there and no-one he asked knew where he was. (So why on that day didn't he go to Evans house or the fairgorund?) He also said he had a shave at a barber's shop (his defence checked on barber's in Rhyl, none of them could recall seeing anyone like Hanratty, which his supposedly highly noticeable hair).

    5] He spent time in amusement arcades and in Woolworth's on Wednesday afternoon, then said that in the evening he went to the fairground but couldn't find Evans. (If anyone at the fairground saw him, they didn't contact his defence [as far as I'm aware]). In the evening he said he went back to Dixie's cafe then spent a second night at Ingledene.

    6] On Thursday morning he went back to Liverpool.

    The above is not speculation, it's the bare bones of what he told his defence about his visit to Rhyl. My comments are in brackets.

    Graham
    Hi Graham

    Point 3 from your post is very bare bones indeed.

    Hanratty said he asked several people for digs, before coming upon Mrs Jones lodgings.

    This has been corroborated fully by the owners of guest houses in the Kinmel Street area, including describing the mans appearance, especially his hair condition. The mention of the man's hair state being similar by more than one person and it being right alone convinces me that it was Hanratty. The other witnesses just add more weight to that opinion.

    Timing, some 6 months after the event are always going to be a bit awry. But none are more than an hour out. Mrs Walker gave an additonal statement that said her encounter was at lighting up time as the sun set, around 8:30 to 8:45.

    It would also have been very unlikely for Hanratty to have made up the trip to Liverpool on the Tuesday and ask for Carlton or Tarleton Road and have that corroborated by Mrs Dinwoodie. This part of his alibi never changed and the prosecution couldn't counter it in a logical fashion without resorting to fantasy.

    Considering that none of the prosecution identification witnesses mentioned the state of the mans hair being similar to the state that Hanratty's was in at the time convinces me that Hanratty was anywhere other than in Rhyl on the night of the 22nd.

    Also little point is made of the fact that no one sees Hanratty, with his distinctive hair, supposedly travelling to Liverpool on the Thursday to set up what would be a useless alibi!

    Your point 4 is just plain wrong as a Rhyl barber called Gerald Murray seems to remember Hanratty as being a customer. Mr Murray (with Messrs Dutton and Larman) wasn't interviewed by Douglas Nimmo in his oh so thorough Rhyl alibi investigation. Whitewash.

    An interesting development in the world of DNA interpretation can be found here:

    http://www.brightonwired.co.uk/news....iction-quashed

    Derrick

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  • Derrick
    replied
    Originally posted by Victor View Post
    Why are you so hung up on what Swanwick thought? It doesn't matter where he was holed up before or after the crime, it only matters if he can prove he was elsewhere at the time - which a signature in a guestbook, even under the "Ryan" alias, would do.

    We know he was at the Frances on the Monday, and sending a telegram from Liverpool on Thursday, and in the back of a Moggie in-between!
    Hi Victor

    The judge Mr Gorman made the jury well aware that a lack of alibi was no indication of guilt.

    You seem to be hung up on the opposite as being true.

    Derrick

    Leave a comment:


  • Graham
    replied
    Hanratty seems to have left calling-cards all over the place, with the notable exception of Liverpool until Friday 25th August 1961, and of course Rhyl.

    Now then....I wonder why that should be?

    Graham

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  • babybird67
    replied
    Originally posted by Graham View Post
    And he kept the receipt from his Monday night stay at the Vienna and showed it to the Frances.

    Pity he didn't have any railway or bus-ticket stubs, or receipts, or signatures in guest-books in Rhyl or Liverpool.

    Graham
    And we all know why that was don't we....

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  • Graham
    replied
    And he kept the receipt from his Monday night stay at the Vienna and showed it to the Frances.

    Pity he didn't have any railway or bus-ticket stubs, or receipts, or signatures in guest-books in Rhyl or Liverpool.

    Graham

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  • NickB
    replied
    Originally posted by Victor View Post
    a signature in a guestbook, even under the "Ryan" alias, would do
    As he did each night when travelling around Ireland.

    Leave a comment:


  • Victor
    replied
    Originally posted by Derrick View Post
    So where was he?

    Mr Swanwick didn't know either, as the transcript shows;
    Hi Derrick,

    Why are you so hung up on what Swanwick thought? It doesn't matter where he was holed up before or after the crime, it only matters if he can prove he was elsewhere at the time - which a signature in a guestbook, even under the "Ryan" alias, would do.

    We know he was at the Frances on the Monday, and sending a telegram from Liverpool on Thursday, and in the back of a Moggie in-between!

    KR,
    Vic

    Leave a comment:


  • babybird67
    replied
    where was he????

    Originally posted by Derrick View Post
    Hi Victor
    So where was he?

    Mr Swanwick didn't know either, as the transcript shows;



    Derrick
    On the A6 murdering and raping his victims that's where he was!!!!


    Jeez. Honestly!

    Leave a comment:


  • Derrick
    replied
    Originally posted by Victor View Post
    Well he wasn't in Rhyl...
    Hi Victor
    So where was he?

    Mr Swanwick didn't know either, as the transcript shows;

    Swanwick: What you did was to go to Paddington where you could dump your case and go to the Maidenhead and Slough area--

    Gorman: When? Are you suggesting he went that morning? On that day? Is there any evidence to support this?

    Swanwick: No.
    Derrick

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  • Graham
    replied
    Rhyl "Alibi"

    Very briefly, because all this has been posted before, this is what Hanratty told his defence about his claimed visit to Rhyl:

    1] He arrived by bus in the evening. (The only bus he could have got from Liverpool arrived at Rhyl at 8.19pm and at least one of the Rhyl "witnesses" claimed to have seen him or someone resembling him before this time).

    2] He knew Terry Evans as "John" and said he tried to contact him to fence some stuff for him. He didn't go to the fairground because he'd walked out of a job there during his previous (genuine) visit to Rhyl. He didn't say if he had been to Evans' house, but he did say that he considered the shoes he'd taken as a gift, implying that there was no reason he couldn't have gone to Evans' house.

    3] When he couldn't find Evans he began to search for a room. (This in itself weakens a lot of the evidence of the "witnesses" because it nullifies the times some of them said they saw Hanratty around Kinmell Street area).

    4] The next day he went to Dixie's cafe he said he knew Evans used, but he wasn't there and no-one he asked knew where he was. (So why on that day didn't he go to Evans house or the fairgorund?) He also said he had a shave at a barber's shop (his defence checked on barber's in Rhyl, none of them could recall seeing anyone like Hanratty, which his supposedly highly noticeable hair).

    5] He spent time in amusement arcades and in Woolworth's on Wednesday afternoon, then said that in the evening he went to the fairground but couldn't find Evans. (If anyone at the fairground saw him, they didn't contact his defence [as far as I'm aware]). In the evening he said he went back to Dixie's cafe then spent a second night at Ingledene.

    6] On Thursday morning he went back to Liverpool.

    The above is not speculation, it's the bare bones of what he told his defence about his visit to Rhyl. My comments are in brackets.

    Graham

    Leave a comment:


  • NickB
    replied
    Originally posted by Black Rabbit View Post
    You know this because you asked him?
    We are all postulating why he did or said certain things without being able to ask him. But surely, if he had been in Rhyl, he could have found the fairground had he wanted to.

    On the subject of asking him ...

    Some people believe the Rhyl witnesses were credible. But they "did not find support from Hanratty himself". We know this because Sherrard asked him.

    Leave a comment:

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