a6 murder

[Derrick]

...With regard to the Rhyl alibi: it included fine detail with regard to the Ingledene boarding house where Hanratty had stayed and the evidence of Margaret Walker who was certain of the date when a young man matching Hanratty’s description came to her house looking for lodgings, the night of the A6 murder.
This evidence was not seriously undermined in the Court of Appeal.

Hi Tony
As Victor said which I quoted the other day:

...It's the increasing connections between Hanratty and the murder that corroborate eachother and make it very probable. If you take each piece of evidence in isolation then it's easier to doubt...

The Rhyl alibi is very difficult to doubt unless one starts to nit pick at individual elements of it.
For one, Hanratty himself and the alibi witnesses where only trying to remember events which to all intents and purposes were some months ago and at the time insignificant to all of them as facts that should have been remembered. Timings etc are bound to be wrong to all but those who are so anal as to record every breath they take. Every one makes mistakes thank God, that is what makes each of us human. If we didn't make mistakes we would never have learned anything and moved on to greater things.

Derrick

[RonIpstone]

Just as a matter of interest these are the present day thoughts of Michael Mansfield:

We argued, unsuccessfully.

Did he happen to mention how he was able to agree with the prosecution Counsel that Alphon was not the murderer?

[Tony]

Did he happen to mention how he was able to agree with the prosecution Counsel that Alphon was not the murderer?

No Ron,

He just said doubts remain and that the Rhyl alibi included fine detail.

I obviously do not know his exact thoughts on the verdict but he does seem to still have his doubts.

Tony.

[Natalie Severn]

No Ron,

He just said doubts remain and that the Rhyl alibi included fine detail.

I obviously do not know his exact thoughts on the verdict but he does seem to still have his doubts.

Tony.

And so does Sherrard,judging from his 2009 autobiography .Sherrard points out,apparently without any hesitation, that hanky panky went on with witness statements by Acott and Oxford ,such as them being altered and states unequivocally that this has been proven beyond doubt by modern testing techniques.
Sherrard"s autobiography suggests even more hanky panky than this--- such as witnesses who were never called and evidence that was withheld.

More has and is being discovered since 2002 about the behaviour of DNA on such aged and small cloth samples as were used for testing, in this case .
Norma

[Victor]

The Rhyl alibi is very difficult to doubt unless one starts to nit pick at individual elements of it.

Hi Derrick,

I find it hard to classify identifying the glaring holes in the Rhyl alibi as nit-picking.

For one, Hanratty himself and the alibi witnesses where only trying to remember events which to all intents and purposes were some months ago and at the time insignificant to all of them as facts that should have been remembered.

The six month delay was entirely Hanratty's doing, if he had mentioned it earlier than halfway through the trial, then it could have been investigated further.

Timings etc are bound to be wrong to all but those who are so anal as to record every breath they take. Every one makes mistakes thank God, that is what makes each of us human. If we didn't make mistakes we would never have learned anything and moved on to greater things.

How can you call it anal to know whether it was dark or light when wandering around looking for lodgings - it's a primary difference. As is the fact that he supposedly changed rooms, or slept in the bathroom for one night. These are major details that Hanratty should have known if he'd actually been in Rhyl at the crucial time.

KR,
Vic.

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Vic,
Hanratty told Michael Sherrard he caught the bus in the late evening -[strictly speaking that is the close of day ] and he arrived "as it was getting dark"-ie dusk.
This does match up with bus arrival times and sunset. If the bus arrived at 8.15-8.20,then the Sun was about to set and that would be dusk.
Both Mr Larman and Margaret Walker said they saw the effect of dye because of the sun"s light shining on the hair! Absolutely possible at that hour in Rhyl.The reflection from the sinking sun can certainly light up the entire bay and the surrounding town with it.There are no tall buildings even now to take away from the effects of this reflected light from the water illuminating buildings,roofs,roads and our hair!It is a dazzling sight the sunset in Rhyl,you can be almost blinded if you are driving a car West towards Abergele.Mr Larman said he stood at the corner of Bodford Street and Kinmel Street.The area is open-its a cross roads so light would be let in from the West on the pair and would catch the top of Hanratty"s head as he went towards Ingledene. Mrs Walker lived near the bus station and there are one story houses there with gaps between them and a lot of light from the railway and bus station,which have a large expanse of space of space in front of them.
It all makes sense to me, having seen Rhyl at these times.
Best
Norma

[RonIpstone]

It all makes sense to me, having seen Rhyl at these times.

I wonder if the unusual light conditions prevalent in Rhyl during the late summer evenings could account for Hanratty failing to notice that there was a bath in his room?

Also, the moon reflecting off the silvery Irish Sea directly into the skylight of the otherwise windowless room occupied by Jim could have deceived the simple West-Londoner, unversed in the peculiar North Wales climatic conditions, and led him to believe that his room had a window.

[Natalie Severn]

I wonder if the unusual light conditions prevalent in Rhyl during the late summer evenings could account for Hanratty failing to notice that there was a bath in his room?

Also, the moon reflecting off the silvery Irish Sea directly into the skylight of the otherwise windowless room occupied by Jim could have deceived the simple West-Londoner, unversed in the peculiar North Wales climatic conditions, and led him to believe that his room had a window.

Now that really is news to me Ron!I thought it was actually Hanratty who did remember there was a green bath in the room and they discovered from Mrs Jones that there was!
I knew you would find it comical about the light in Rhyl but it is a fact Ron.
Also , whenever we have booked in at a hotel overnight on our travels,I can never remember the name of the street it was in when friends ask me for the address for example,still less what the windows and curtains were like if we were shown the room after dark.Its a lot of bollocks if you ask me- all these stuffed shirts, expecting 24 year old Hanratty to remember the details of that kind of thing six months later.Anyway---maybe it wasnt Ingledene----so what? As the judge ---desperately wanting to acquit Hanratty because of such a gross lack of evidence--- tried to explain to the Bedford jury, "failure to provide an alibi" does not make a person guilty of the crime.It may help prove his innocence but it does not prove he was guilty,
Cheers
Norma

[RonIpstone]

Now that really is news to me Ron!I thought it was actually Hanratty who did remember there was a green bath in the room and they discovered from Mrs Jones that there was!

No, Hanratty never said that he slept in the room with the bath only that the guesthouse had a green bath in the top part of the house. His room had a sink, was at the back of the guesthouse and had a window. The room with the green bath was in an attic room with no window and only a skylight to enjoy the famous Rhyl light show.

If the only way of accommodating Jim at Ingledene was in the room with the green bath, then Jim's account gives no support to this. Jim might have been slow, but even he would have known the difference between a bath and a sink, and between a window and a skylight.

[Victor]

Now that really is news to me Ron!I thought it was actually Hanratty who did remember there was a green bath in the room and they discovered from Mrs Jones that there was!

No Norma, Hanratty said there was a green bath in the attic, not that he stayed in the attic bathroom because there was a bed in there too!

Its a lot of bollocks if you ask me- all these stuffed shirts, expecting 24 year old Hanratty to remember the details of that kind of thing six months later.

Any specific detail would help, not the screamingly general ones Hanratty gave - mind you the suggestion that green was an unusual colour for a bath in 1961 to try and make that detail less general needs more weight.

Anyway---maybe it wasnt Ingledene----so what? As the judge ---desperately wanting to acquit Hanratty because of such a gross lack of evidence--- tried to explain to the Bedford jury, "failure to provide an alibi" does not make a person guilty of the crime.It may help prove his innocence but it does not prove he was guilty,

So what? With all the helpful Welsh people propping up the story by conveniently saying they directed a young man to Ingledene that evening?

I find it amazing that you describe cartridge cases discovered in a hotel room as "a gross lack of evidence", plus 3 identifications including the victim, plus the gun being found in a hiding place Hanratty admitted to using, &tc.

KR,
Vic.

[Natalie Severn]

I think its a bit of a mistake to think Hanratty was slow.He may have had problems at school but that doesnt make him slow Ron-he may have just needed to be properly taught and encouraged.If you read Sherrard, he presents quite a different fellow who he says was very "articulate" and remarkably able to hold his own against the rigorous cross questioning of Swanwick.
But be that as it may....you may have a good point,if that room was not the one he said he slept in.I know Mrs Jones said she had no vacancies and that is where she would have put him that first night anyway, and also that other guests bore her out that her house was otherwise completely full up.
Perhaps he didnt stay at Ingledene then? The entire street was full of B&B"s-as was most of central Rhyl.Did Hanratty ever say he recognised her as his landlady of August 22nd and 23rd ?I have looked for such a reference but been unable to find it,
Norma

[NickB]

Did Hanratty ever say he recognised her as his landlady of August 22nd and 23rd?

Mrs Jones was presented by the defence as his landlady.

It would be good to have a transcript of Hanratty's evidence in court. It may not be as impressive as Woffinden etc. make out.

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Victor,
I understand your point about the cartridge cases being found .But they were "found" a good 19 days after the crime was committed despite police having questioned Juliana Galves about the Vienna Hotel on September 6th-five days earlier, and they themselves having visited the hotel.
I believe that Alphon could just as easily have planted the gun under the back seat of the 36a bus, having messed up his "hitman" instructions with the gun so horribly [instructions to simply put the frighteners on the couple in the cornfield] . Alphon arrived at the Vienna Hotel after Hanratty left it,on 22nd August , the day of the murder.So quite possibly Alphon got that gun from Hanratty---[maybe wrapped up in his hanky?]-Hanratty having been paid to give it to give to him by France possibly?
Hanratty was framed in the hope they would all get away with it.
There was alteration and confusion over the Nubbs statements,very significant disagreement between the statements of Blackhall and Skillett about the MM, who were sitting next to each other in the car ,an 'initially" wrong identification by Valerie Storie. Two identikit pictures, at the start of the inquiry, confusion over "deep set" eyes and "flat to the face" eyes,brown eyes and blue eyes........nothing whatsoever that could be said to be watertight...........

[Natalie Severn]

Mrs Jones was presented by the defence as his landlady.

It would be good to have a transcript of Hanratty's evidence in court. It may not be as impressive as Woffinden etc. make out.

I have some of it here in Foot"s book,which I must take back soon.I can type it out.It is quite impressive in the sense that it is alert-quick off the mark and succinct.

[Derrick]

In those 3 dots Woffinden has cut out the following:
“with one exception. At 6.10am a young man of dirty appearance, wearing a dirty raincoat got on near the Grosvenor Hotel and went to the upper deck, where he was the only passenger for a time.”

Woffinden does a similar expurgation when recounting what happened when Acott asked Alphon if he had any clothes anywhere else.

“Alphon: Yes, but they're in hotels and pawnbrokers and I'm not telling you where they are.

Acott: I shall have every pawnbroker visited and I shall probably find them ... Have you got any bags or cases?

Alphon: No."

In this case the following has been replaced by 3 dots:
"Alphon: All right, I've a pair of trousers in Thompson's in the Uxbridge Road."

So Woffinden claims that:
1) no-one was alone at the back of the bus; and
2) Alphon refused to say where any of his clothes were.
But he is omitting crucial sections from statements to support his case.

Hi Nick
The omitted sections from Ms Patt's statement mention nothing of where, exactly, the man sat, nor does it actually incriminate anyone as Ms Patt says herself:

...I did not see anything suspicious during the whole of this journey...

As you got the Alphon police interview from Leonard Miller's book you may also know that Mr Miller got the additional interview notes from Bob Woffinden's documentary film Mystery of Deadman's Hill but that interview actually continues some more:

Acott: None at all.
Alphon: Well, I have got one cheap case where I'm staying, but I'm not telling you where that is.
(LAVATORY)

Mr Miller missed out the last 2 lines of that interview page and says in his very next paragraph (p37):

By missing out Alphon's reply Woffinden succeeds in making Alphon appear suspiciously devious and unco-operative.

Both of these statements were discovered thirty years after the trial by Bob Woffinden and (later Sir) Geoffrey Bindman having been withheld from the jury.

I hope this helps
Derrick