a6 murder

[Graham]

Hi Julie,

Thanks for your post....my savage breast is partially soothed.

I wasn't banging on about Hanratty's accent and how he spoke, but about Jimarilyn's assumption that makes him sound like some 1960's Rory Bremner, with a total disregard for what Sherrard, Acott and Prof Dennis Fry said about his accent and articulation. Twisting facts to fit the argument.

And to repeat what Ron just said: Why should he vary his accent, even if he was capable of doing so? It makes no sense.

Graham

[NickB]

Having pondered for twenty minutes - she asked each man in the line-up to speak and it was Hanratty's 'finking' instead of 'thinking' that apparently made up her mind.

It has been pointed out countless times that Valerie said she recognised Hanratty from sight and the voice was further confirmation.

Saying 'f' instead of 'th' is not so much any particular accent but a mannerism of speaking which is difficult to change after it has become ingrained. Therefore it is a good means of identification.

If it had been Alphon talking for 5 hours, presumably she would have said that the distinguishing manner of the killer's speech was to say 'w' instead of 'r'.

[Natalie Severn]

I think Graham, that it may not appear to be of any importance to you or other posters here ,how the individual varies his accent and dialect in different social situations, but it is a linguistic fact that he or she does do so---you, me, your wife, Ron,Julie etc.We are all "bidialectal" to some extent in terms of our use of one of the many dialects of GB---ie unless we come from a region other than Kent in the South East,which is closest to what is [less frequently now] termed "received English ". At home our usage is often tied to the domestic and informal while at work we may use a subject specialist language needed for our line of work along with a more formal use of standardised dialect .
A South East accent would be very noticeable to Mrs Dinwoody up in Liverpool.
Even though I have lived in London for many years,I still carry distinct traces of my North West accent in my intonation that are immediately perceptible to Londoners who are born and bred in London.
Norma

[jimornot?]

Julie

But why should he vary it to incomprehensible Welsh/Scotch when speaking to the trustworthy Mrs Dinwoodie? Why indeed?

Ron

hi Ron and all

Maybe Mrs Dinwoodie is just very bad at recognising accents. Is welsh accent much like a scottish one?

Can't buy the theory Hanratty changed his accent deliberately to be more acceptable. perhaps in the company of scousers he might subconsciously take on some of the attributes IF he was used to that type of dialect generally. I am referring to limited experience of say scots lapsing into braod accents not normally apparent when back within their family - I recall a shool friend (now that was a long time ago) doing excatly that - so much so that I could no longer understand much of what he was saying

atb

viv

[jimornot?]

sorry this appears below

[jimornot?]

------------.....
I repeat: NO credence can be attached to the Rhyl Alibi because there is NO concrete proof or evidence that Hanratty was there when he claimed he was.
I ask again: where is his name in a B&B guest book? His ticket stub for the bus ride from Liverpool? A citizen of Rhyl coming forward with evidence prior to Hanratty's alibi-switch - it was only after the trial that anyone from Rhyl claimed to have seen him there. His mentioning to anyone in the France family that he'd been to Rhyl?

Sherrard himself was highly sceptical of the Rhyl Alibi, to the extent that he made Hanratty sign a disclaimer; and quite rightly too. There never was, and never will be, any SOLID evidence that Hanratty was in Rhyl at the critical time.

Graham

Hi graham

Initally I thought this unfair - ie not his fault if B&B owners didn't use a register (and I think this would have been a far mnore common experience than some might believe - especially if perhaps the number of guest exceeded any statutory maximums for example). Also why would anyone keep a bus ticket several days later? And the argument about people coming forward on their on own merits is IMHO a bit tenuous

But in fairness, why did he not appear to mention it to France? Why did he really believe he could get away with the liverpool alibi, what was his preceived problem in raising Rhyl at all? Not proven to me either way

I'd forgotten about the disclaimer as well

atb

viv

PS where's Vic, hope he is ok

[Natalie Severn]

The B&B register is just not so.I have never been "required" to sign a guest book in a B&B and I use them regularly.A hotel is different and my husband and I have sometimes been required to sign when staying in a hotel-eg in Edinburgh at one of the Ibis Hotels during the festival.But even there your cheque card is all that is often required.

[Graham]

Hi graham

Initally I thought this unfair - ie not his fault if B&B owners didn't use a register (and I think this would have been a far mnore common experience than some might believe - especially if perhaps the number of guest exceeded any statutory maximums for example). Also why would anyone keep a bus ticket several days later? And the argument about people coming forward on their on own merits is IMHO a bit tenuous

But in fairness, why did he not appear to mention it to France? Why did he really believe he could get away with the liverpool alibi, what was his preceived problem in raising Rhyl at all? Not proven to me either way

I'd forgotten about the disclaimer as well

atb

viv

PS where's Vic, hope he is ok

Hi Viv,

yeah, where's Vic? On hols?

What I was getting at is that Hanratty needed tanglible proof that he was in Rhyl when he said he was. It's significant that no other witness came forward (so far as I'm aware) until Mrs Jones' summons to give evidence. Then all of a sudden half the population of Rhyl 'suddenly remember' they'd seen Hanratty, and Sherrard was very wary about people he perceived as wanting to get in the act. I only suggested a bus-ticket because had he done the journey he might just have shoved the stub in his pocket. I never throw away car-park tickets - they just build up on the back seat until my missus clears them out.

I think Hanratty chose Rhyl for the obvious reason that he'd been there in July, and maybe he thought if he showed a reasonable knowledge of the place his new alibi would be believed.

Nowadays a defendant ain't allowed to change his alibi once his trial has begun. In 1962 it was known as an 'ambush alibi' and done in the hope that the prosecution wouldn't have enough time to investigate and discredit it.

Cheers,

Graham

[Derrick]

...
1] if the DNA in the A6 Case is suspect, then one must assume that the DNA in other cases is also suspect. How many cases? - ten? A hundred? A thousand? Ten thousand? Now I keep a fairly close internet watch on what's going in the world of true crime, both in the UK and elsewhere, and I don't at this moment in time recall coming across one single current case in which a DNA analysis is challenged as being totally wrong. As always, I stand to be corrected on this....

Graham
Here are 3 to get you started.

David Ferguson

http://www.insidetime.org/articleview.asp?a=747&c=bob_woffinden_writes

Neil Garmson

http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Crim/2009/2698.html

David Mulcahy

http://www.davidmulcahy.com/7KleAr.html

Derrick

[Limehouse]

It has been pointed out countless times that Valerie said she recognised Hanratty from sight and the voice was further confirmation.

Saying 'f' instead of 'th' is not so much any particular accent but a mannerism of speaking which is difficult to change after it has become ingrained. Therefore it is a good means of identification.

If it had been Alphon talking for 5 hours, presumably she would have said that the distinguishing manner of the killer's speech was to say 'w' instead of 'r'.

Hi Nick

Pronouncing 'th' as 'f' is called 'th fronting' (because the 'th' sound - usually made by placing the tongue between the teeth - is made further in the mouth by lapping the top teeth over the bottom lip). This is a distinctive characteristic of London speech and of speech carried out of London to places such as Essex (around the Thames estuary). Saying it is a good means of indentification is prolematic because thousands and thousands of London males would have spoken in this way. It was distinctive to Valerie - perhaps - because she may have heard such mannerisims less frequently than a working class Londoner - who would harldy notice it.

Alphon's speech characteristic is uncommon generally -but sometimes apparent in someone who has grown up listening to a local dialect and accent - but who adopts a moderated form of that dialect - perhaps because they went to a school where accents and dialects were expected to be 'received' . Alphon - of course - achieved a scholarship to a public school. A modern example of this characteristic is Johnathan Ross.

[Limehouse]

hi Ron and all

Maybe Mrs Dinwoodie is just very bad at recognising accents. Is welsh accent much like a scottish one?

Can't buy the theory Hanratty changed his accent deliberately to be more acceptable. perhaps in the company of scousers he might subconsciously take on some of the attributes IF he was used to that type of dialect generally. I am referring to limited experience of say scots lapsing into braod accents not normally apparent when back within their family - I recall a shool friend (now that was a long time ago) doing excatly that - so much so that I could no longer understand much of what he was saying

atb

viv

Hi Viv - I don't think Hanratty changed his accent - just moderated it. As you say - Mrs Dinwoodie may just have been unfamiliar with a London accent that has slight characteristics from other dialects.

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Julie,
Mrs Dinwoody"s hearing would have been adjusted to the strong scouse accent"s she heard everyday in Scotland Road which was a very poor district of Liverpool,especially in 1961 and where almost everybody entering her shop would have had a very strong scouse accent. A "foreigner" [ie someone speaking with a London accent ], arriving in her small local sweet shop ,which was mostly frequented by people from her immediate locality ,who arrived quite unexpectedly out of the blue ,asking for directions but being uncertain of the name of the street he was wanting--[was it Tarleton or Carlton?] probably would have been difficult for her to understand .When you live down South you quite rapidly attune to the different accents of the Southerner but a person used to hearing Scouse on a daily basis might take longer to adjust to the different pronunciation of the street names as well as the actual rhythms of his speech.

[RonIpstone]

When you live down South you quite rapidly attune to the different accents of the Southerner but a person used to hearing Scouse on a daily basis might take longer to adjust to the different sounds and rhythms .

Leaving aside the Welsh/Scotch bit of the description, what about the incomprehensible bit? Jim seems to have been understood by everyone else, or are you saying that Mrs Jones could not understand him? That Mr Kempt could not understand what he was saying? Who else could not understand Jim.? Mike Sherrard thought Jim had a normal and average Londoner's voice; would all Scousers find Londoners incomprehensible and think that their dialects sounded Welsh or Scotch?

[Limehouse]

Hi Julie,
Mrs Dinwoody"s hearing would have been adjusted to the strong scouse accent"s she heard everyday in Scotland Road which was a very poor district of Liverpool,especially in 1961 and where almost everybody entering her shop would have had a very strong scouse accent. A "foreigner" [ie someone speaking with a London accent ], arriving in her small local sweet shop ,which was mostly frequented by people from her immediate locality ,who arrived quite unexpectedly out of the blue ,asking for directions but being uncertain of the name of the street he was wanting--[was it Tarleton or Carlton?] probably would have been difficult for her to understand .When you live down South you quite rapidly attune to the different accents of the Southerner but a person used to hearing Scouse on a daily basis might take longer to adjust to the different pronunciation of the street names as well as the actual rhythms of his speech.

Quite so Nats - and of course Hanratty may have used a non-local pronounciation of Tarlton or Carlton which emphasised her confusion over his accent.

[Limehouse]

Leaving aside the Welsh/Scotch bit of the description, what about the incomprehensible bit? Jim seems to have been understood by everyone else, or are you saying that Mrs Jones could not understand him? That Mr Kempt could not understand what he was saying? Who else could not understand Jim.? Mike Sherrard thought Jim had a normal and average Londoner's voice; would all Scousers find Londoners incomprehensible and think that their dialects sounded Welsh or Scotch?

Clearly Ron - someone who cannot tell a Scotch from a Welsh dialect was not skilled in locatiing regional dialects - whether it was Hanratty or not who visited the shop that day.