a6 murder

[Victor]

Morning Vic,

Regardless of how the garments were stored during or after the trial, it is possible, even likely, that the police stored these garments together after they had been obtained, but prior to the trial.

Additionally, regardless of whether they were sealed when found, we have no knowledge of how much cross contamination happened during the process of packing up these garments.

Good morning Julie,

Everyone accepts that the possibility of contamination cannot be ruled out, there are a number of opportunities when it may have occured, and the judgment attempts to account for a number of these, there is a subsection entitled "Contamination" - paragraphs 110 to 128.

For example, the direct responce to the points you have raised is in paragraph 114 - "Mr Howard is still alive though in poor health. His recollection is that the dangers of contamination were recognised even in 1961 and that the practice was to take elementary precautions such as making sure that clothing from victim and suspect were not examined on the same day."

In regard to the entire issue of contamination I go back to what I said in my reply to Norma, contamination could account for Hanratty's profile appearing in the DNA results, but it could not account for the actual rapist's profile vanishing. It is the lack of an additional DNA profile other than Storie, Gregsten and Hanratty that strongly indicates that contamination did not occur.

KR,
Vic.

[Victor]

Good points - and where are the witnesses who saw Hanratty anywhere near the scene of the crime prior the the attack?

Hi again Julie,

Where are the witnesses who saw the gunman near the scene of the crime prior to the attack, regardless of who that was?

Not only was Anderson a receiver, she received stolen goods from the very man she was testifying against in court. In the spacew of days, she went from being a friend, confident enough to have him sleep in her home, to a hostile witness, willing to provide evidence that would send a man to the gallows.

I think you've answered your own question there. Anderson let a petty criminal and her alleged accomplice into her home, and when she discovered that he wasn't just a petty burglar but a rapist and a murderer then she turned on him.

KR,
Vic.

[NickB]

Where are the witnesses who saw the gunman near the scene of the crime prior to the attack, regardless of who that was?

Also, a gunman who thought someone in the area had got a good look at him would be foolhardy to proceed with the attack.

Hanratty may have thought someone had got a good look at him on his way to or at Paddington, as he admitted having gone there.

[Natalie Severn]

In regard to the entire issue of contamination I go back to what I said in my reply to Norma, contamination could account for Hanratty's profile appearing in the DNA results, but it could not account for the actual rapist's profile vanishing. It is the lack of an additional DNA profile other than Storie, Gregsten and Hanratty that strongly indicates that contamination did not occur.

So Victor-are we to understand that Valerie did have sexual intercourse that night with Gregsten in the cornfield ?
I had not understood that from the Woffinden book.I thought they were simply supposed to have been discussing a rally or something.
Anyway Gregsten"s blood group was not group "O" which was the rapists blood group and shared by both Hanratty and Alphon - blood group "O" being a very common blood group in fact.
What was in the broken vial stored in the locker with other exhibits-do you happen to know?

Ofcourse the rapists blood group could have vanished ---quite easily over 40+ years as you must well know given all that you appear to know about DNA----or do you Victor?---it doesnt take a rocket scientist to work out that the fibres in the fragment of cloth tested [the cloth being stapled to a piece of card ] could easily have begun to deteriorate over 10 years never mind 40 years. It is instructive that in 1997 no conclusion whatever could be drawn about what was on the fragment of cloth .Why would that be if there was semen from Gregsten and from the rapist still on the fragment of cloth and able to supply a DNA outcome of any worth?

[Natalie Severn]

Also, a gunman who thought someone in the area had got a good look at him would be foolhardy to proceed with the attack.

Hanratty may have thought someone had got a good look at him on his way to or at Paddington, as he admitted having gone there.

Do you live in London? You could get to North Wales from Paddington then and now and indeed in 1952 that is how my family travelled from Birkenhead---near Liverpool, to the coronation of Queen Elizabeth .The point is that by 1961 it was a bit faster to go to Liverpool and take a Crosville coach to Rhyl from Liverpool Lime Street.It stayed that way well into the 1970"s.

Nick,there were at least four sightings and they were for real- unlike Janet Gregsten"s "intuitive sighting" of "Hanratty" just after the other resident of the Vienna Hotel- Alphon had been charged with the A6 murder , ie 8 days after the murder itself ,of Hanratty.---a sighting written about at length in a number of daily newspapers at the time.....!
Will look them up later and get back to you.

[Natalie Severn]

Morning Vic,

Regardless of how the garments were stored during or after the trial, it is possible, even likely, that the police stored these garments together after they had been obtained, but prior to the trial.

Additionally, regardless of whether they were sealed when found, we have no knowledge of how much cross contamination happened during the process of packing up these garments.

If people don"t know how easily that happened,Julie,up until the past 20 years never mind 50 years ago ,then they dont know much about why there is so much red tape surrounding murder scenes today!

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Norma,

Good points - and where are the witnesses who saw Hanratty anywhere near the scene of the crime prior the the attack?

Not only was Anderson a receiver, she received stolen goods from the very man she was testifying against in court. In the spacew of days, she went from being a friend, confident enough to have him sleep in her home, to a hostile witness, willing to provide evidence that would send a man to the gallows.

It's good to have you on board as the doubters were getting thin on the ground.

Thanks Julie. Anderson was disgustingly corrupt that came out quite clearly in the trial itself.
BTW there are witnesses who saw a stranger in a field that afternoon and others who saw a similar man over several weeks.He looked a lot more like Alphon than Hanratty which makes me wonder again about the £5,000 he received just prior to the trial in 1961. Sounds like he was at least "involved" even if he wasnt the murderer. I need time to check these witnesses out. Amazing stuff really.

[Victor]

So Victor-are we to understand that Valerie did have sexual intercourse that night with Gregsten in the cornfield ?
I had not understood that from the Woffinden book.I thought they were simply supposed to have been discussing a rally or something.

Hi Norma,

That is a question I am unable to answer with any certainty, it is a distinct possibility as they had been in the cornfield for 30-45 minutes. There are obvious explanations concerning infidelity, protecting the reputation of a rape victim, &tc. If intercourse occured the most we can say with any certainty is it was omitted from the published account; Valerie may have informed the Police, and it could have been Acott who decided it was not relevent to the crime and removed it to defend Valerie's honour. The judgment only says "There were smaller quantities of seminal fluid of blood group AB assumed to have come at some earlier stage from Michael Gregsten."

Woffinden does discuss the implications of this and is critical of this detail being omitted.

What was in the broken vial stored in the locker with other exhibits-do you happen to know?

No. No-one does. It could have been empty.

Ofcourse the rapists blood group could have vanished ---quite easily over 40+ years

DNA not blood group. There is no mechanism for the DNA in the rapist's semen to selectively vanish, yet the DNA in Gregsten's semen, and Valerie's vaginal fluids to persist. It's just not feasible.

And as for the 40 year comment, on the DNA thread there's a link to a document that discusses extracting DNA profiles from 4,000 year old mummies.

KR,
Vic.

[Victor]

Nick,there were at least four sightings and they were for real- unlike Janet Gregsten"s "intuitive sighting" of "Hanratty" just after the other resident of the Vienna Hotel- Alphon had been charged with the A6 murder , ie 8 days after the murder itself ,of Hanratty.---a sighting written about at length in a number of daily newspapers at the time.....!
Will look them up later and get back to you.

Hi Norma,

It was an invention of one journalist - Duffy?? - who sold it to many other journalists and papers. It's one bit of misinformation widely circulated, that's how myths and legends abound. Just like grapes in JtR.

KR,
Vic.

[Victor]

He looked a lot more like Alphon than Hanratty which makes me wonder again about the £5,000 he received just prior to the trial in 1961. Sounds like he was at least "involved" even if he wasnt the murderer.

Hi Norma,

You still haven't responded to the comment you made a few days ago about criminals being bought for a couple of pieces of silver.

Just what made Alphon so expensive that he got £5,000?

KR,
Vic.

[NickB]

You could get to North Wales from Paddington

But he didn't go to North Wales from Paddington. His own account is that he went to Liverpool from Euston.

He says he was confused about the area, even though he had stayed at Anderson's flat near Paddington previously, and went to Paddington first by mistake.

[Victor]

on the DNA thread there's a link to a document that discusses extracting DNA profiles from 4,000 year old mummies.

The link is http://www.theforensicinstitute.com/...tement%202.pdf

The quotes are from page 3 -
"DNA is an inherently stable molecule and requires something to destroy or degrade it; examples are action by light, cellular enzymes, or bacteria."

"DNA has been extracted from mummies (albeit with mixed success), and profiles are routinely obtained in Medical Genetics from blood spots on card stored at room temperature that are at least 40 years old".

KR,
Vic.

[Natalie Severn]

Qui Bono? [Hey Victor -lets not repeat "misinformation" here

Hi Norma,

It was an invention of one journalist - Duffy?? - who sold it to many other journalists and papers. It's one bit of misinformation widely circulated, that's how myths and legends abound. Just like grapes in JtR.

KR,
Vic.

Emphatically No Victor. Ewer,Alphon"s "central figure" did indeed later attempt, with Janet Gregsten, to deny the story.[Ewer became Janet Gregsten"s lover not long after the trial --and Hanratty"s execution].
But no,it was not Duffy who first learned about the sighting but an "Evening Standard " reporter,George Hollingbery and another journalist who were drinking in a pub when Ewer approached them and "excitedly regaled them "with the tale.Duffy simply learned of it from them and stole their thunder by rushing it to print before they had had chance to investigate it!And in fact the story which appeared in the Mail as well as the Sketch was subsequently thoroughly investigated by Paul Foot.The police were called, at the time, with regards to Mrs Gregsten"s "intuitive sighting"-and subsequently every single shopkeeper in the the Swiss Cottage arcade , including the ex-policeman in the photographer"s shop were closely questioned at the time .

But I think we may be getting to know who gained in the end in all this----even if he was lighter in the pocket!

[Natalie Severn]

But he didn't go to North Wales from Paddington. His own account is that he went to Liverpool from Euston.

He says he was confused about the area, even though he had stayed at Anderson's flat near Paddington previously, and went to Paddington first by mistake.

But thats what I am saying.He had a rather "confusing " choice too---of either taking a train from Paddington---which took longer or going via Liverpool Lime Street which was from Euston.He may well have got confused. People used to consider which was the best route to take.They sometimes still do-it depends on the service today!And her flat was actually just round the corner from Paddington but going by Paddington would have still taken longer- even then.

[Natalie Severn]

[QUOTE=Victor;137953]The link is http://www.theforensicinstitute.com/...tement%202.pdf

The quotes are from page 3 -
"DNA is an inherently stable molecule and requires something to destroy or degrade it; examples are action by light, cellular enzymes, or bacteria."

"DNA has been extracted from mummies (albeit with mixed success), and profiles are routinely obtained in Medical Genetics from blood spots on card stored at room temperature that are at least 40 years old".


Vic,

This could prove very helpful information,I accept that--- so thankyou.My point was about the known fragility of the cloth sample,its possible contamination,its known and unknown history not having been provided with the 2002 test . The fact that it was described as a "fragment of cloth' attached to a staple and meaning that its possible the semen stains had already disappeared with the disintegration of the cloth..
The point about the test itself is that whatever you choose to believe about the LCN DNA"s 2002 test vis a vis its reliability it is very controversial and is considered by the FBI and most European judiciaries too unreliable to use.
I am sorry Victor but I prefer to believe Woffinden on this--he is a journalist and documentary maker of the utmost integrity and his latest quote on the tests "unreliability" is in last month"s "The Oldie".Also editors rarely publish articles if what the writer is saying could be considered by their lawyers to be untrue or possibly libellous ie the editing staff /lawyers for" The Oldie' to be printing stuff about the FBI that simply isnt true.