a6 murder

[caz]

Hi jimarilyn,

Then how was VS able to distinguish between Clark and Alphon well enough to reject the latter as her attacker?

None of this adds up. Where is the evidence that she considered it a toss-up between these two, or had any trouble choosing between them? All we know is that she thought she recognised Clark as the man who had raped and shot her but she was wrong; it could not have been him. By picking him, she rejected everyone else, Alphon included, as men she plainly didn't recognise or remember from her recent lengthy ordeal.

Only later did she concede that there was a resemblance between (at least) one of those men - ie Alphon - and the one she had been wrong about. How much of a resemblance, and the nature of it, is anyone's guess. Clark was not necessarily the only one in that first parade to bear some resemblance to Alphon. They could all have done, to some extent, in which case there could have been better Alphon lookalikes among the rejects, rendering his comparison to Clark irrelevant and misleading.

We have two knowns, who don't resemble each other, who were presented to VS in separate parades. She only recognised the second one - Hanratty. And her reasons for recognising him convinced her this time. She also had her reasons for not seeing her attacker in Alphon. That's all we can take away from this. Clark is an unknown quantity stuck in the middle. He could therefore have resembled Hanratty as much in one way as he resembled Alphon in another.

We would expect the DNA to bear an uncanny resemblance to VS's attacker. It bore none to Alphon and he has not been in the frame for this crime since the day VS rejected him. That can't be repeated often enough.

Love,

Caz
X

[jimarilyn]

Then how was VS able to distinguish between Clark and Alphon well enough to reject the latter as her attacker?

You'd have to ask Valerie herself about that. Who knows, maybe she wasn't feeling too good that day. She knew she didn't have to select anyone unless she was sure in her own mind that he was the culprit. It had been almost five weeks since the murder and she herself had said that the memory of the man's face was fading fast and she might not be able to identify him if confronted with him. The fact that she did remark on the resemblance between Clark and Alphon is significant. In fact Alphon stated something to the effect that she lingered in front of him for a long moment and he feared she was about to pick him out.

We have two knowns, who don't resemble each other, who were presented to VS in separate parades. She only recognised the second one - Hanratty. And her reasons for recognising him convinced her this time.

In the Hanratty ID parade it was obvious to all and sundry who the police suspect was. Hanratty was the only person with vividly coloured orange hair which stood out from everybody else's. To quote Michael Sherrard's question to her at the trial "this head must have stood out like a carrot among a bunch of bananas ?". Her answer was yes.
Hanratty might just as well have had the words "I AM THE POLICE SUSPECT" tattooed on his forehead ! The evening before that ID parade the police had already decided that a man (Hanratty) would be charged with the murder within 24 hours. Totally unbelievable. What if she hadn't picked out Hanratty ? Where would that have left them . It would have left them with a lot more than egg on their faces.

[Victor]

It had been almost five weeks since the murder and she herself had said that the memory of the man's face was fading fast and she might not be able to identify him if confronted with him.

No she didn't.

Drop the "fast" and then you'll be right.

The evening before that ID parade the police had already decided that a man (Hanratty) would be charged with the murder within 24 hours. Totally unbelievable. What if she hadn't picked out Hanratty ? Where would that have left them . It would have left them with a lot more than egg on their faces.

They said the same thing before Alphon's failed ID didn't they? After he gave himself up. And all that happened is that some people think he still did it!

KR,
Vic.

[jimarilyn]

No she didn't.

Drop the "fast" and then you'll be right.

My mistake . I'll rephrase that quoted sentence without the word 'fast' .........
It should have read ""It had been almost five weeks since the murder and she herself had said the memory of the man's face was fading and she might not be able to identify him if confronted with him"

They said the same thing before Alphon's failed ID didn't they? After he gave himself up. And all that happened is that some people think he still did it!

No, Victor. The police said no such thing before Alphon's ID parade. He was their prime suspect but (unlike the Hanratty situation) they had not already made up their minds the evening before the parade that they were going to charge him with the A6 murder.

[Victor]

He [Alphon] was their prime suspect but (unlike the Hanratty situation) they had not already made up their minds the evening before the parade that they were going to charge him with the A6 murder.

Surely all that means is that there was enough evidence to charge Hanratty without the identification. The cartridge cases in the Vienna on the chair next to the bed where he slept the night before the murder, &tc.

KR,
Vic.

[NickB]

And presumably he had been positively identified (by John Silkett and/or James Trower) in the id parade mentioned in the report.

[Victor]

And presumably he had been positively identified (by John Silkett and/or James Trower) in the id parade mentioned in the report.

Oh come on Nick, those ID parades were equally unfair because he'd effectively tattooed "I'm a murdering rapist!" across his forehead, so they should be ignored too. And if Kleinman had insisted on all the people on the parade wearing skull caps, then that would have been unfair too, because then his staring blue eyes would have stood out even more prominently. So basically it's unfair for Hanratty to have been placed on an ID parade at all, thereby eliminating all identification evidence completely.

Unless of course all the members of the ID parade had their hair repeatedly dyed the same colour beforehand! I wonder who'd pay for that - "thirty bob" (Woffinden page 245) times 10 parde members times 2 or 3 for the "repeatedly", and then presumably back to their natural colour afterwards so at least double that figure.

KR,
Vic.

[jimarilyn]

Merely a coincidence ?????..................


1) That the VS compiled Identikit looks so much like Peter Alphon.

2) That Peter Alphon was the original chief police suspect.

3) That Peter Alphon booked into the Vienna Hotel a couple or so hours after James Hanratty checked out.

4) That Peter Alphon had a pair of ladie's black gloves lying at the top of his open suitcase in his room at the Vienna shortly before noon on the day of the murder.

5) That Peter Alphon hid himself away at the Alexandra Court Hotel for five days in the immediate aftermath of the murder, acting very suspiciously and nervously and drawing attention to himself.

6) That Peter Alphon, on August 27th, had a very recent copy of the Daily Express hidden at the bottom of his suitcase, displaying front page headlines and spread about the very recent A6 Murder.

7) That someone fitting Alphon's description to a tee was spotted in the Dorney Reach area several hours before the car hi-jacking.

8) That the murderer on at least a couple of occasions said to VS..."I will count five....." Jean Justice said that Peter Alphon used exactly the same phrase "I will count five" to him on several occasions. There is an important distinction here . The vast majority of people would not say "I will count five", they would be much more inclined to say "I will count to five" or "I will count up to five". In addition I would guess most people would be much likelier to say three rather than five.

9) That the man encountered by Michael Fogarty-Waul on a couple or so occasions near the Marsh Lane area of Dorney around the time of the A6 murder resembled the actor Sydney Tafler and had a curious gait. Many observers have commented on the marked resemblance between Alphon and Tafler and Alphon's distinctive gait has been described by some as being reptilian in manner. Filmed footage of Alphon walking along a Paris street can be seen in Bob Woffinden's 1992 documentary and his gait is clearly unusual.

10) That an unaccounted for £5,000 was paid (by instalments) into Alphon's bank account over the course of several months subsequent to the murder.

11) That just two days after the murder Alphon purchased a new raincoat.

12) That on August 27th, Alphon told police that he had slept outdoors under Southend Pier on the nights of August 19th, 20th and 21st. The murderer had told MG and VS on the evening of August 22nd that he had slept rough the previous two nights.

13) That VS's original description of the murderer's hair...."straight, well-greased, dark brown, brushed straight back, slightly receding at the temples" described Alphon to an absolute tee.

14) That Alphon spoke with a noticeable cockney accent.

15) That Alphon made several veiled and unveiled confessions to the murder over the ensuing years.

16) That Alphon most definitely had a violent streak in him.

17) That Alphon knew the Slough area very well.

18) That two of the six London areas which Alphon frequented most just happened to be those of Kingsbury and Northolt.

[jimarilyn]

And presumably he had been positively identified (by John Silkett and/or James Trower) in the id parade mentioned in the report.

Do you mean John Skillett ?

I find it very significant that both of these witnesses had completely forgotten about these separate incidents with a Morris Minor ( which indicates how unimportant and trivial they must have seemed to them) for a full 24 hours until they were questioned about them. We are then asked to believe that the fleeting glimpse each says they had of the driver of a Morris Minor was enough for the forgotten image of a man's face to reappear to them both a full 7 weeks plus later !

Edward Blackhall who had a nearer and clearer view of the driver of the Morris Minor than Skillett, did not pick out Hanratty on that parade. Neither did Harry Hirons, the petrol pump attendant at the garage the murder car stopped at. As for James Trower, I wouldn't trust him as far as I could throw him, and for very obvious reasons.

[Tony]

Do you mean John Skillett ?

I find it very significant that both of these witnesses had completely forgotten about these separate incidents with a Morris Minor ( which indicates how unimportant and trivial they must have seemed to them) for a full 24 hours until they were questioned about them. We are then asked to believe that the fleeting glimpse each says they had of the driver of a Morris Minor was enough for the forgotten image of a man's face to reappear to them both a full 7 weeks plus later !

Edward Blackhall who had a nearer and clearer view of the driver of the Morris Minor than Skillett, did not pick out Hanratty on that parade. Neither did Harry Hirons, the petrol pump attendant at the garage the murder car stopped at. As for James Trower, I wouldn't trust him as far as I could throw him, and for very obvious reasons.

Powerful stuff, James,

Tony.

[SteveS]

Plus newpapers quite plainly reported, prior to the 2 Hanratty id parades, that the man wanted for questioning over the A6 (ie Hanratty) may have dyed hair.
ALL of the witnesses taken to the 2 parades would have been aware of this fact.
In fact Trower took little more than a few seconds to pick out the Belisha Beacon that was Hanratty; the confidence anyone can have in his motives is anyone's guess.
Blackhall picked out someone else and his view of the Morris's driver was much better than Skillet's.
I wager that both Trower and Skillet were drawn to Hanratty's hair colour more than anything else and were both swayed by the press reports. Their collective perfromance as witnesses in court was not that impressive as far as I am concerned, especially Trower.
In the bizarre circumstances of Hanratty's situation viz his hair colour the actions of Kleinmann in not protecting his client was reprehensible so was the collective action of the police not to issue skull caps as prescribed by Acott.

[Victor]

Merely a coincidence ?????..................

Most of them yes. Let's go through them shall we...

1) That the VS compiled Identikit looks so much like Peter Alphon.

Highly debateable, and of course, VS picked out Michael Clark in preference to Alphon at an ID parade which completely nullifies this point.

2) That Peter Alphon was the original chief police suspect.

Are you trying to imply that all suspects are guilty? No smoke without fire. This point is utterly irrelevent.

3) That Peter Alphon booked into the Vienna Hotel a couple or so hours after James Hanratty checked out.

Absolutely a coincidence, whichever way you look at things. For those of us who believe Hanratty is guilty and Alphon innocent then this is the only reason Alphon rather than any of the many other people reported for behaving suspiciously in a hotel is connected with this case.

4) That Peter Alphon had a pair of ladie's black gloves lying at the top of his open suitcase in his room at the Vienna shortly before noon on the day of the murder.

If you are going to nitpick at Nick about a simple typo then make sure you get your apostrophe correct. What about Hanratty stealing Louise Anderson's black gloves?

5) That Peter Alphon hid himself away at the Alexandra Court Hotel for five days in the immediate aftermath of the murder, acting very suspiciously and nervously and drawing attention to himself.

Which I understand was typical behaviour for Alphon.

6) That Peter Alphon, on August 27th, had a very recent copy of the Daily Express hidden at the bottom of his suitcase, displaying front page headlines and spread about the very recent A6 Murder.

Alphon reads a newspaper, how relevent is that?

7) That someone fitting Alphon's description to a tee was spotted in the Dorney Reach area several hours before the car hi-jacking.

Around the same time as Alphon was checking into the Vienna.

8) That the murderer on at least a couple of occasions said to VS..."I will count five....." Jean Justice said that Peter Alphon used exactly the same phrase "I will count five" to him on several occasions. There is an important distinction here . The vast majority of people would not say "I will count five", they would be much more inclined to say "I will count to five" or "I will count up to five". In addition I would guess most people would be much likelier to say three rather than five.

Jean Justice was passionate about this case and about proving Hanratty innocent to the point of getting himself institutionalised, not an unbiased independent source.

9) That the man encountered by Michael Fogarty-Waul on a couple or so occasions near the Marsh Lane area of Dorney around the time of the A6 murder resembled the actor Sydney Tafler and had a curious gait. Many observers have commented on the marked resemblance between Alphon and Tafler and Alphon's distinctive gait has been described by some as being reptilian in manner. Filmed footage of Alphon walking along a Paris street can be seen in Bob Woffinden's 1992 documentary and his gait is clearly unusual.

Alphon visited Slough Dog Track, so it could have been him, or the person who was apparently similar referred to in point 7.

10) That an unaccounted for £5,000 was paid (by instalments) into Alphon's bank account over the course of several months subsequent to the murder.

That is a lot of money for the time, but the only reason we know about it is because Alphon agreed that Foot could see his bank statements. Alphon wanted Foot to see that, he manipulated Foot, and by itself it proves nothing, unless you can find out where the money came from.

11) That just two days after the murder Alphon purchased a new raincoat.

So what he needed a new coat. Hanratty dumped his coat after tearing it, Alphon could have done the same.

12) That on August 27th, Alphon told police that he had slept outdoors under Southend Pier on the nights of August 19th, 20th and 21st. The murderer had told MG and VS on the evening of August 22nd that he had slept rough the previous two nights.

The murderer also said "Call me Jim" and lots of other things, arguing that the things the murder said are inadmissible for Hanratty but admissible for Alphon is pure hypocrisy.

13) That VS's original description of the murderer's hair...."straight, well-greased, dark brown, brushed straight back, slightly receding at the temples" described Alphon to an absolute tee.

And lots of other people. He was blood type O like the murderer too.

14) That Alphon spoke with a noticeable cockney accent.

And so do lots of other people.

15) That Alphon made several veiled and unveiled confessions to the murder over the ensuing years.

All of which contained demonstrable inconsistancies.

16) That Alphon most definitely had a violent streak in him.

Really? The only instance would be outside the tube station, where a scuffle ensued involving Mrs Hanratty, Alphon and Justice. Alphon was not found guilty of a crime and it was a highly charged situation that got out of hand. Different people have different opinions about this incident and I put the blame firmly on Justice.

17) That Alphon knew the Slough area very well.

Becasue he went to the Dog Track there.

18) That two of the six London areas which Alphon frequented most just happened to be those of Kingsbury and Northolt.

I think Hanratty knew those 2 areas better, his parents lived in Kingsbury and he'd robbed houses in Northolt.

KR,
Vic.

[Victor]

In the bizarre circumstances of Hanratty's situation viz his hair colour the actions of Kleinmann in not protecting his client was reprehensible so was the collective action of the police not to issue skull caps as prescribed by Acott.

Acott never prescribed skull caps, he made sure they were available should Kleinmann have requested them.

[Limehouse]

Do you mean John Skillett ?

I find it very significant that both of these witnesses had completely forgotten about these separate incidents with a Morris Minor ( which indicates how unimportant and trivial they must have seemed to them) for a full 24 hours until they were questioned about them. We are then asked to believe that the fleeting glimpse each says they had of the driver of a Morris Minor was enough for the forgotten image of a man's face to reappear to them both a full 7 weeks plus later !

Edward Blackhall who had a nearer and clearer view of the driver of the Morris Minor than Skillett, did not pick out Hanratty on that parade. Neither did Harry Hirons, the petrol pump attendant at the garage the murder car stopped at. As for James Trower, I wouldn't trust him as far as I could throw him, and for very obvious reasons.

Additionally Jim, there is a very good chance that the murder car was already parked up in Avondale Crescent before the incidents that these men describe and the car they saw was not the murder car at all. After all, as I have pointed out before, why would a man in a car full of someone else's blood risk being caught by driving like an idiot?

[Limehouse]

Acott never prescribed skull caps, he made sure they were available should Kleinmann have requested them.

Why skull caps? Wouldn't wooly hats have covered more?