a6 murder

[jimarilyn]

If the images are that innaccurate then it's unsurprising that the Identikit pictures VS et al made differ from Hanratty's photographs.

.

Sorry, Victor, but I don't buy that for one second.

VS helped Jock Mackie to compile that Identikit photo just 3 short days after the murder, when the image of her attacker's face was freshest in her mind. She understood full well the great importance of giving Sgt Mackie the most accurate description of her attacker as possible. She didn't know on that Saturday afternoon if she would survive her bullet wounds and her most fervent wish must have been for MG's murderer (and her rapist) to be found. Consequently, great care must have been taken in compiling that Identikit photo. Scotland Yard had been using the impressive technique with great success for the previous five or six months since it's introduction from the USA.

She must have seen enough of her attacker's face to tell Sgt Mackie that he wore his hair slicked/brushed back (possibly with Brylcreem) and had dark coloured eyes. In 1961 most 30 year old men (her original statement described the gunman's age as being exactly 30) did not wear their hair that particular way. That style was much more popular among older men. As we all know, one man who did wear his hair that way was a certain 30 year old Londoner by the name of Peter Louis Alphon. Surprise of surprises it turned out that Valerie's Identikit photo looked almost a dead ringer for Mr Alphon. It looked absolutely nothing like the 24 year old James Hanratty. Hanratty, because of a widow's peak, could not slick or brush his hair back. Even the infamous William Nudds described Hanratty's hair on August 22nd as having a 'quiff '. This is how Hanratty wore his hair.

Intriguingly enough, that same Saturday afternoon when Valerie was helping to compile her Identikit photo, Peter Louis Alphon was acting very strangely at the Alexandra Court Hotel ( or should that read Caught ) for the fourth consecutive day. The next evening he was brought in (because of his very suspicious behaviour) for police questioning in connection with their A6 murder inquiries. I wonder what the concensus of opinion was at Police Headquarters over the course of the following few days when comparing this suspect, Alphon, in the flesh with Miss Storie's very recently compiled Identikit photo. Quite possibly Bingo ! he's our man. Re-inforced even further with the discovery, a couple of weeks later, of the empty cartridge cases at the hotel Alphon booked into on the day of the murder.

And Alphon did resemble Michael Clark.............

[caz]

And Alphon did resemble Michael Clark.............

......your source being a witness you have just tried to claim was totally unreliable, jimarilyn.

I'd call that trying to have it both ways.

And despite your totally unreliable witness, and despite no suspect's DNA turning up on the hanky or knickers apart from Hanratty's, and despite what you think about the police who handled the case, it seems you'd be much happier if they had all managed to pin it on Alphon and he had swung instead.

I'd call it fortunate that you will not be having it your way, any way.

Love,

Caz
X

[Victor]

Sorry, Victor, but I don't buy that for one second.

Hi James,

You seem to be missing the point, especially the University of Stirling experiment where 10 celebrities were imaged with a success rate of 3%!

VS helped Jock Mackie to compile that Identikit photo just 3 short days after the murder, when the image of her attacker's face was freshest in her mind. She understood full well the great importance of giving Sgt Mackie the most accurate description of her attacker as possible. She didn't know on that Saturday afternoon if she would survive her bullet wounds and her most fervent wish must have been for MG's murderer (and her rapist) to be found. Consequently, great care must have been taken in compiling that Identikit photo. Scotland Yard had been using the impressive technique with great success for the previous five or six months since it's introduction from the USA.

How do you know VS "understood full well the great importance"?
What evidence is there for the Identikit being "impressive" and had been used "with great success"? 3% sounds like a dismal failure to me.

And most importantly can you not see the glaring dichotomy of VS being so ill and distressed because she might not survive, but she was well enough and so mentally alert that "great care must have been taken in compiling". It's way more likely that her condition would have severely negatively affected the Identikit.

And Alphon did resemble Michael Clark.............

Apart from Clark being blue-eyed whereas Alphon's were hazel. And of course, that's taking VS word in that instance, and then disbelieving her when she selects Clark because he looked more like her attacker than Alphon.

KR,
Vic.

[Graham]

Not even when I still thought there was a possibility of Hanratty's being innocent did I ever see much of a resemblance between either of the Identikits and Peter Alphon. Who, at the time of the crime, was miles away meeting his mother. And who was not picked out by Valerie Storey on the i.d. parade.

Alphon it was not.

Graham

[jimarilyn]

......your source being a witness you have just tried to claim was totally unreliable, jimarilyn.

I see you are trying to distort things again caz, as you are often prone to do. I would dearly love to know exactly where in my post have "I just tried to claim Valerie Storie was a totally unreliable witness." I feel sure other posters would also like to know.

Please try to be more truthful in future.

[jimarilyn]

How do you know VS "understood full well the great importance"?
What evidence is there for the Identikit being "impressive" and had been used "with great success"? 3% sounds like a dismal failure to me.

So you don't think it was impressed upon her to give as accurate a description of her attacker as she could ? Do you seriously believe she went into this venture half heartedly, just going through the motions ? Or do you believe she undertook the venture because she wanted her would be murderer caught ? Before her identi-kit photo was published in the press on August 30th Valerie stated that it was a true likeness of her attacker.

As for you requesting evidence for the Identi-kit technique being impressive and used with great success the last paragraph of the attached Times article [dated August 30th 1961] is quite clear about this.

And most importantly can you not see the glaring dichotomy of VS being so ill and distressed because she might not survive, but she was well enough and so mentally alert that "great care must have been taken in compiling". It's way more likely that her condition would have severely negatively affected the Identikit.

Miss Storie and Det-Sgt Mackie took considerable time and care in compiling this Identi-kit photo and it was she who sanctioned it as a true likeness of her attacker before publication of it was made in the press.

Apart from Clark being blue-eyed whereas Alphon's were hazel. And of course, that's taking VS word in that instance, and then disbelieving her when she selects Clark because he looked more like her attacker than Alphon.

It has not been satisfactorily determined what colour Michael Clark's eyes were. Miss Storie did not say that Michael Clark's eyes were blue. In fact she said that she could not remember what Michael Clark looked like.
It was her doctor, Dr Rennie who said [referring to Clark]...'as far as I can remember he had rather fairish hair and bluish eyes.' Dr Rennie made it clear however that he could not remember exactly what Clark looked like.
His description of Clark having fairish hair was totally at odds with what Baz Acott said. Acott stated firmly on oath that Clark had dark, short-cropped hair.
If it is Dr Rennie who is mistaken about the hair colour then he could also be in error about eye colour.

[jimarilyn]

Not even when I still thought there was a possibility of Hanratty's being innocent did I ever see much of a resemblance between either of the Identikits and Peter Alphon. Who, at the time of the crime, was miles away meeting his mother. And who was not picked out by Valerie Storey on the i.d. parade.

You're in a tiny minority, Graham, who can't see the uncanny resemblance between Alphon and Valerie Storie's Identi-kit photo of her attacker.
So Alphon was miles away from the scene of the crime meeting his mother ? Not according to Mrs Gladys Alphon !
No wonder she was in tears at the time Acott was putting out an alert for her son. She had good cause to be.

[Victor]

So you don't think it was impressed upon her to give as accurate a description of her attacker as she could ? Do you seriously believe she went into this venture half heartedly, just going through the motions ? Or do you believe she undertook the venture because she wanted her would be murderer caught ? Before her identi-kit photo was published in the press on August 30th Valerie stated that it was a true likeness of her attacker.

Hi James,

Yes I do think she tried her best, just like everyone else who does the Identikit and I can see no reason why VS would be any more or less accurate than every other person who does one. Those others would also be trying hard to get a clear image of their assailants, and yet their success rate is abysmal.

As for you requesting evidence for the Identi-kit technique being impressive and used with great success the last paragraph of the attached Times article [dated August 30th 1961] is quite clear about this.

Fair enough, the Times article you quoted does say the Identikit has been used successfully, but it sounds very much like propaganda to me. The article I linked to (dated 2010) gives the latest position, which is that Identikits have limited success and the images produced are poor representations of the criminals - The comparisons with Ridgway &tc being offered as evidence of this.

Miss Storie and Det-Sgt Mackie took considerable time and care in compiling this Identi-kit photo and it was she who sanctioned it as a true likeness of her attacker before publication of it was made in the press.

Just like every other instance, but the reality is that the images are actually quite poor.

You're in a tiny minority, Graham, who can't see the uncanny resemblance between Alphon and Valerie Storie's Identi-kit photo of her attacker.

Actually Graham I completely agree with you, I can't see any similarity between Alphon and the Identikits either! And it still doesn't get round the fact that VS chose Clark instead of Alphon at the ID parade which implies that she believes that Clark looks more like her rapist than Alphon.

KR,
Vic.

[caz]

I see you are trying to distort things again caz, as you are often prone to do. I would dearly love to know exactly where in my post have "I just tried to claim Valerie Storie was a totally unreliable witness." I feel sure other posters would also like to know.

Please try to be more truthful in future.

It was by implication, jimarilyn.

It stands to reason, if you are saying that VS picked out an innocent man from the first parade, because he resembled her attacker - whom she failed to recognise even though he was in the same line-up - and she went on to pick out a second innocent man from the second parade - Hanratty - you must be maintaining that she was the mother of all bad witnesses.

Love,

Caz
X

[jimarilyn]

Actually Graham I completely agree with you, I can't see any similarity between Alphon and the Identikits either!

Perhaps if you take your blindfold off Vic, you just might. If you're being honest with yourself that is.

[jimarilyn]

It was by implication, jimarilyn.

It stands to reason, if you are saying that VS picked out an innocent man from the first parade, because he resembled her attacker - whom she failed to recognise even though he was in the same line-up - and she went on to pick out a second innocent man from the second parade - Hanratty - you must be maintaining that she was the mother of all bad witnesses.

Love,

Caz
X

Anyone else as baffled as me with this reply ??

[caz]

Actually Graham I completely agree with you, I can't see any similarity between Alphon and the Identikits either! And it still doesn't get round the fact that VS chose Clark instead of Alphon at the ID parade which implies that she believes that Clark looks more like her rapist than Alphon.

For the Clark argument to work, he'd have had to look more like Alphon than Alphon did.

If anyone caught the second Eyewitness programme, on BBC2 recently, they would have seen how several people, recruited for a documentary they were told was concerned with memory, failed to recognise themselves from a line-up of life-size faces whereby their own facial features had been transplanted onto a photo of someone with a different face shape or hairstyle.

It was a real eye-opener.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

Hi jimarilyn,

I'll make it less baffling for you.

You maintain that VS picked out two innocent men, who looked nothing like each other, but failed to recognise the man who actually raped and shot her.

But when it comes to the question of whether Clark resembled Alphon closely enough to be significant, you rely solely on VS to help you get the answer you want.

How were you able to judge her capable of making the comparison between Clark and Alphon?

Love,

Caz
X

[jimarilyn]

How were you able to judge her capable of making the comparison between Clark and Alphon?

They were on the same ID parade, lined up in front of her, and she could see the resemblance with her own two eyes.

[Victor]

They were on the same ID parade, lined up in front of her, and she could see the resemblance with her own two eyes.

That only holds if she knew which of the line up was Clark, and which was Alphon. Was VS told which of the line up was Alphon? She picked Clark so there is no reason for Alphon to be pointed out to her until afterwards.

KR,
Vic.