a6 murder

[Victor]

So Evans has now become a liar and burglar in your eyes Victor. What another outrageous accusation. Where is your proof that Evans was a burglar and liar. Do you just make it up as you go along ???

Why was Hanratty supposedly looking for him?
Liar - well it's either him or Jones from the descriptions of the trial in Woffinden.

I've tried hard to make sense of this statement Victor, but your logic completely escapes me and I don't know what you're trying to say.

I mean that every time I point out something that weakens your case or might be difficult for you to explain that you start shouting things like "What another outrageous accusation" in an obvious attempt at feigning outrage to divert attention away from what I actually said.

No, you are most definitely contradicting yourself again Victor. Re-read your earlier post (#3484) where you clearly state that Mrs Jones and Terry Evans were COLLUDING with each other.

Yes, they were discussing something when they shouldn't have. And then they gave different explanations for what they had been discussing. The judge told them off. That's collusion isn't it? I accept that there could be an understandable explanation such as two lonely, homesick Welsh neighbours in the middle of England seeking mutual support, but that's not absolutely guaranteed now is it? That's why they were told off. It looks improper. Especially with their other criminal activities.

KR,
Vic.

[jimarilyn]

That's collusion isn't it?

No it is not and you know full well it isn't.

[Victor]

Thanks for your reponses to my rather large post. Nice to see that the thread is back debating events, which is how it should be. I am still reading information, and am trying to do my own timeline of events, or should I say timelines? This is so I can put things into prospective in my own mind.

At last, timelines are definitely needed, and I think it does need to be at least two, one for Proved events like the car crash in Ireland, and one for disputed events - was the sweetshop monday or tuesday?

With regards to the DNA and possible contamination. The knicker sample was inside two envelopes stored in a box (I believe)

3 envelopes, the inside cellophane sealed with sellotape, a small brown and a lrage brown.

with the broken vial.

The vial was inside a separate polythene bag.

Something happened to me on Monday, which made me think about this. On Monday morning I took from my freezer a frozen meal for my lunch. I put the meal into my bag and went to work. When I got to work about 20 minuites later, I put ithe meal in the fridge. When I had put the meal in my bag it was next to a large manilla envelope which I didn't even think about. Yesterday, I removed the envelope from my bag to give a one page report to someone. In two sections of the report the ink had smudged badly, which I didn't understand. I then looked at the envelope and saw a small watermark on the envelope. The envelope was thick and good quality. In just 20 minutes water from the meal packaging had penetrated the envelope. If I had left the envelope for 40 years - would the watermark have been noticable?

Speculation, speculation, speculation. Don't we love it!!!

The water that caused the damage was melted ice from water vapour frozen in your freezer, it wasn't from your meal. And manilla envelopes are particularly absorbant and would absorb the water as it forms as liquid. And the watermark would be incredibly hard to get rid of, the longer it's left the more noticeable it'll be.

KR,
Vic.

[Victor]

No it is not and you know full well it isn't.

col·lu·sion (k-lzhn)
n.
A secret agreement between two or more parties for a fraudulent, illegal, or deceitful purpose.

collusion
Noun
secret or illegal agreement or cooperation


Well they talked together about something and then gave different explanations for what they spoke of, that sounds like a "secret agreement for a deceitful purpose" to me.

Any suggestions that their behaviour was not improper is just plain wrong.

KR,
Vic.

[jimarilyn]

Methinks you'd swear that 'black' is just a dark shade of 'white' Victor.

[reg1965]

Hi All

Yes, they were discussing something when they shouldn't have. And then they gave different explanations for what they had been discussing. The judge told them off. That's collusion isn't it? I accept that there could be an understandable explanation such as two lonely, homesick Welsh neighbours in the middle of England seeking mutual support, but that's not absolutely guaranteed now is it? That's why they were told off. It looks improper. Especially with their other criminal activities.

col·lu·sion (k-lzhn)
n.
A secret agreement between two or more parties for a fraudulent, illegal, or deceitful purpose.

collusion
Noun
secret or illegal agreement or cooperation


Well they talked together about something and then gave different explanations for what they spoke of, that sounds like a "secret agreement for a deceitful purpose" to me.

Any suggestions that their behaviour was not improper is just plain wrong.

Technically Mrs Jones and Mr Evans conversation was improper and in breach of court rules and was dealt with properly at the time.

But it was not as Victor says for a fraudulent, illegal, or deceitful purpose. Mr Evans asked Mrs Jones why she had had problems identifying Hanratty. Mrs Jones freely accepted that it was his hair that was different as Mr Evans had proposed.

Where is the evidence to suggest that any fraud, illegality or deceitful act had taken place. If the judge had felt that any such act had taken place he would have placed the miscreant in contempt of court immediately.

As to Victor's judgement on Mr Evans and Mrs Jones criminal activities, I can only bow to superior knowledge of the case. As far as I can fathom Mr Evans was a scrap metal dealer and Mrs Jones, a respectable guest house owner.
Mr Evans had a few minor convictions, according to Woffinden (1997, p94)

including driving without due care and attention, failing to stop after an accident, and poaching.

and Mrs Jones had no known criminal record.

Reg

[Tony]

Hi All





Technically Mrs Jones and Mr Evans conversation was improper and in breach of court rules and was dealt with properly at the time.

But it was not as Victor says for a fraudulent, illegal, or deceitful purpose. Mr Evans asked Mrs Jones why she had had problems identifying Hanratty. Mrs Jones freely accepted that it was his hair that was different as Mr Evans had proposed.

Where is the evidence to suggest that any fraud, illegality or deceitful act had taken place. If the judge had felt that any such act had taken place he would have placed the miscreant in contempt of court immediately.

As to Victor's judgement on Mr Evans and Mrs Jones criminal activities, I can only bow to superior knowledge of the case. As far as I can fathom Mr Evans was a scrap metal dealer and Mrs Jones, a respectable guest house owner.
Mr Evans had a few minor convictions, according to Woffinden (1997, p94)

and Mrs Jones had no known criminal record.

Reg

Hello Reg,

Now it’s not often that I have to cross swords with you but surely you are aware that the Master Criminals Mr Evans and Mrs Jones expanded their criminal empire and indeed only a matter of a few years later became leading members of the gang that carried out The Great Train Robbery.

Well some would like us to believe that anyway; in Cloud Cuckoo land.

Tony.

Oh by the way Reg the hour is now fast approaching when my experiment will be carried out on eye colour in the back of a car. I’ve usually had a bit of the old sauce by the time I get home so don’t wait up in anticipation of the result tonight. I think the best I can promise you is tomorrow afternoon.
But I am quite hopeful of reporting good and entertaining news for you then.

Tony

[reg1965]

The prosecution had tried to suggest that Hanratty had only been to Rhyl once, certainly on the 25th July 1961 and that he [Hanratty] was just recalling similar persons and events to act as an alibi for the 22/23rd August 1961.

Seeing that Hanratty stayed with Evans this is made nonsense by Terry Evans evidence at trial.

From Foot 1988 (p224-225)

...The bath in his council house, he said, was not green but blue. There was no attic. There was no coat rack - just hooks in the hall. When Mr Swanwick suggested that the grey-haired landlady in Hanratty's story could have been Evan's mother, Evans's repiled that his mother never came to his house at night, and had never met Hanratty. As for the trains, Evan's doubted whether they could be heard from his house.

Why come forward if you were a big player in the Rhyl underworld? He didn't seem to be worried at all about his shoes either!

Reg

[reg1965]

Hello Reg,

Now it’s not often that I have to cross swords with you but surely you are aware that the Master Criminals Mr Evans and Mrs Jones expanded their criminal empire and indeed only a matter of a few years later became leading members of the gang that carried out The Great Train Robbery.

Well some would like us to believe that anyway; in Cloud Cuckoo land.

Tony.

Oh by the way Reg the hour is now fast approaching when my experiment will be carried out on eye colour in the back of a car. I’ve usually had a bit of the old sauce by the time I get home so don’t wait up in anticipation of the result tonight. I think the best I can promise you is tomorrow afternoon.
But I am quite hopeful of reporting good and entertaining news for you then.

Tony

Hi Tony
You don't have both a .32 and a .38 to test the wound evidence as well do you?

Just a thought.

Drive carefully.

Don't pick up any Sidney Tafler types though mate

Reg

[jimarilyn]

Don't pick up any Sidney Tafler types though mate

Hi all,

Reg mentions Peter Al...oops.. I mean Sydney Tafler. It's been commented on this thread previously about the remarkable resemblance between Peter Alphon and Sydney Tafler (especially with regard to the two Michael Fogarty-Waul incidents in Slough).

I often use the IMBD website (an amazing site for film fans) and was scrolling down the list of films Sydney made during his career. I noticed that in 1951 he made a film called "Assassin for Hire" in which he played the lead role. And the character he played in the film was called Alphon !...............(only kidding).

regards,
James

[Victor]

Seeing that Hanratty stayed with Evans this is made nonsense by Terry Evans evidence at trial.

What a joke. Let's take some facts and mix them up to make a ridiculous situation and then compare chalk with cheese.

Hanratty was in Rhyl with Evans in July 1961.
Hanratty claimed to be in the Ingledene in Aug.

Now let's pervert those facts to try and make it fit that the Ingledene was Evans place, instead of going for the more obvious Hanratty had a look round the Ingledene when staying with Evans in July and got all his information to fabricate the alibi then.

It's http://forum.casebook.org/showpost.p...postcount=3471 all over again.

And let's ignore all the deceit about the newspaper guy, where Evans tried to get someone to back up his story for money. See Woffinden for this story! So we have Woffinden saying Evans is trying to pervert the story in 1991 (I think) which connects nicely with his previous involvment in the case.

Why come forward if you were a big player in the Rhyl underworld? He didn't seem to be worried at all about his shoes either!

Now it’s not often that I have to cross swords with you but surely you are aware that the Master Criminals Mr Evans and Mrs Jones expanded their criminal empire and indeed only a matter of a few years later became leading members of the gang that carried out The Great Train Robbery.

Why make out they are bigger crooks than they are? Oh yes to make it all look ridiculous. Little crooks, doing little crimes, suddenly getting involved in a capital murder.

and Mrs Jones had no known criminal record.

She admitted tax fraud under oath. Or maybe False Accounting.

But it was not as Victor says for a fraudulent, illegal, or deceitful purpose.

Three things:-
1. You conveniently ignored the other definition supplied.
2. Comparing notes is illegal.
3. What about the different stories to the judge?

Have fun!

KR,
Vic.

[simon]

Sydney Tafler ? Don't get me started...
If someone can convince me that Fogarty-Waul really DID see someone who resembled Tafler at the scene of the crime a few days before it happened..(and that this wasn't just something that Foot and others on the A6 Committee invented some years after the event)..then I'll jump down off the fence into the 'JH was innocent' garden. At the risk of boring everybody who isn't new to this site, at the age of 11 or 12 I saw a photo of Alphon in a newspaper and thought "He looks like Sydney Tafler". About a decade later, I read Paul Foot's book and was completely freaked out by the single sentence referring to Fogarty-Waul's sighting. It's the coincedence that fuelled my interest in the case thereafter. But then Steve or Graham, I forget which, expressed their cynicism, and doubts began to set in. I'd dearly love to know, though, whether Fogarty-Waul was being truthful.

[reg1965]

Hi all
Irrespective of the prosecutions problems in placing Hanratty in Taplow on that night in August 1961, it was certainly made easier by the Notorious BAZ and MC OXO in witholding five (out of six) of the vital Valerie Storie statements, that were only made public in 1971.

VS knew that she had made these statements. But made no mention of them at trial!! The defence were none the wiser.

A miscarriage of justice.

Reg

[reg1965]

Hi All
Another problem for the prosecution is the placing of the gun on the 36A bus.

The police seemed to favour the afternoon/evening run as the most opportune time for its placement.

If Hanratty had to rush to Liverpool to send the telegram, then he would have been in the Euston area at around 1-1:30pm. The 36A's afternoon run started after that. It was conducted by Mr Ernest Brine.

Ooops!

Have fun!

Reg

[jimarilyn]

Sydney Tafler ? Don't get me started...
If someone can convince me that Fogarty-Waul really DID see someone who resembled Tafler at the scene of the crime a few days before it happened..(and that this wasn't just something that Foot and others on the A6 Committee invented some years after the event)..then I'll jump down off the fence into the 'JH was innocent' garden. At the risk of boring everybody who isn't new to this site, at the age of 11 or 12 I saw a photo of Alphon in a newspaper and thought "He looks like Sydney Tafler". About a decade later, I read Paul Foot's book and was completely freaked out by the single sentence referring to Fogarty-Waul's sighting. It's the coincedence that fuelled my interest in the case thereafter. But then Steve or Graham, I forget which, expressed their cynicism, and doubts began to set in. I'd dearly love to know, though, whether Fogarty-Waul was being truthful.

Hi Simon,

For what it's worth I believe Michael Fogarty-Waul. If I remember correctly both Steve and Graham were suspicious about Fogarty-Waul's involvement with the A6 Murder Committee and they thought he might be jumping on the bandwagon. Given that both were Jimdiditites it's not surprising that they would try to discredit Fogarty-Waul's claim of seeing a Sydney Tafler lookalike in the area of Marsh Lane a fortnight before the murder. Neither Graham nor Steve elaborated further on this so it very much seems that they had no foundation for their suspicions.

Some important details are worth bearing in mind which might help you to decide upon the trustworthiness (or not) of Michael Fogarty-Waul....

1] On August 25th 1961 Fogarty-Waul told police officers about a man to whom he had given a lift a week or two earlier in the Marsh Lane area. This was Fogarty-Waul's second encounter with this stranger, whom he had met at Slough Greyhound Stadium about 3 weeks earlier.

2] In the eary hours of February 28th 1962 Fogarty-Waul drove to Burnham Police Station to report a strange incident which had happened shortly beforehand, involving him and the same man he had spoken to police of 6 months earlier.

3] It was in March 1962 [not years after the event] that Fogarty-Waul told Jean Justice and Jeremy Fox of the resemblance between this man and the British actor Sydney Tafler.

4] The following year, on August 2nd, there was a House of Commons debate (re. the possibility of an inquiry into the A6 murder case). Two MP's, Peter Kirk and Eric Fletcher spoke of how impressed and persuaded they were by Michael Fogarty-Waul's statement.

5] There was something distinctive about the stranger's walk which registered in Fogarty-Waul's mind. For what it's worth, other people have been struck by and commented on the peculiar gait of a certain Peter Alphon, describing it (if I remember correctly) as rather reptilian in manner.


regards,
James


PS. Incidentally my maternal grandmother, Jane, had an older brother, Michael Fogarty, who sadly died in infancy. That was well over a century ago though. Each time I come across Fogarty-Waul's name I think of Jane's brother. Sentimental me (to pinch one of Elvis's old song titles). Great song by the way.