a6 murder

[reg1965]

Hi All

...Furthermore, although JH wasn’t the brightest tool in the box, why tell VS to call him “Jim” (which she believed was not his real name).

Because he though she was going to die. It was pure luck and determination and medical skill that kept her alive, if the bullets had gone through a major organ, she'd be dead.

Obviously VS did not die. She made statements and gave evidence in court about the man who had carried out the deed.

Why then were VS statement's that contained the now infamous quotes "My memory of the man is fading" and "I didn't think that that [Jim] was his real name" withheld from the defence? They were only obtained by the defence in 1971!!!!!

If this had been heard by the jury and examined fully by the defence, would it have scuppered VS's reliability as the crucial prosecution witness, considering she picked out an innocent man at Alphon's parade on the 24/9/61?

Reg

[jimornot?]

With regards to the DNA and possible contamination. The knicker sample was inside two envelopes stored in a box (I believe) with the broken vial. Something happened to me on Monday, which made me think about this. On Monday morning I took from my freezer a frozen meal for my lunch. I put the meal into my bag and went to work. When I got to work about 20 minuites later, I put ithe meal in the fridge. When I had put the meal in my bag it was next to a large manilla envelope which I didn't even think about. Yesterday, I removed the envelope from my bag to give a one page report to someone. In two sections of the report the ink had smudged badly, which I didn't understand. I then looked at the envelope and saw a small watermark on the envelope. The envelope was thick and good quality. In just 20 minutes water from the meal packaging had penetrated the envelope. If I had left the envelope for 40 years - would the watermark have been noticable?

Speculation, speculation, speculation. Don't we love it!!!

Hi Burkhilly

Good post again. I have no idea as regards watermarks on paper but know that say small leaks in a house cause stains that never seem to go away unless covered / treated.

I wonder too if whatever was in that vial (the trouser wash with all its contents?) would have more or less permanence than water

ATB

Viv

[jimornot?]

Hi All


Why then were VS statement's that contained the now infamous quotes "My memory of the man is fading" and "I didn't think that that [Jim] was his real name" withheld from the defence? They were only obtained by the defence in 1971!!!!!

If this had been heard by the jury and examined fully by the defence, would it have scuppered VS's reliability as the crucial prosecution witness, considering she picked out an innocent man at Alphon's parade on the 24/9/61?

Reg

Hi Reg

I know Vic referred to general questions on reliability of identification as a whole. You are right, it is a matter of fact that VS said her memory was fading and she did pick out the wrong man - who appears to have been very different to Hanratty anyway (as far as we know). The only counter argument I think is that if JH was the gunman then she may well have had a flashback that made her sure although I seem to recall she 'had' to ask for those on the parade to speak which implies a degree of uncertainty to me

VS is convinced she picked out the right man and she is the only one who would know. Does anyone recall / know what she said about picking out the wrong man when challened on it anytime?

ATB

Viv

[Victor]

Why then were VS statement's that contained the now infamous quotes "My memory of the man is fading" and "I didn't think that that [Jim] was his real name" withheld from the defence? They were only obtained by the defence in 1971!!!!!

Hi all,
The 1st statement is important for the defense, the 2nd is opinion and is irrelevent.

If this had been heard by the jury and examined fully by the defence, would it have scuppered VS's reliability as the crucial prosecution witness, considering she picked out an innocent man at Alphon's parade on the 24/9/61?

Michael Clark was picked out from a line-up of men that did not include the guilty Hanratty, so she could have felt pressurised into picking out someone by Acott.

What about the travesty that is Olive Dinwoodie's identification of Hanratty?
Or Grace Jones illegally colluding with Terry Evans?
How many of the Rhyl witnesses picked Hanratty from an ID parade?

KR,
Vic.

ps Viv, I'll reply to your posts later...

[jimarilyn]

Mrs Grace Jones's /Terry Evans's conspiracy to pervert course of justice ??????

Hi All,

Absolutely unbelievable ! I'm not surprised however, as it's very much par for the course.
Sometime's I just can't believe what I'm reading.


regards,
James

[Victor]

Hi James,

Are you trying to say that they didn't conspire? She was told off by the judge! And then their accounts of the conversation were different, so one of them was definitely lying.

It's particularly relevent when you consider that Evans was supposed to have got the newspaper seller (Charlie Jones??) to give false testimony, it looks like he was trying to get Grace Jones to do the same. A very suspect set of circumstances.

KR,
Vic.

[jimarilyn]

So what was the nature of this conspiracy Victor ? And for what purpose ?

What else, besides lunch and the colour of Hanratty's hair, were they talking about near the canteen, with jury members in close proximity ?

[Victor]

I have absolutely no idea what the nature of this conspiracy was, but I can make some suggestions.

I've already mentioned how Terry Evans supposedly tried to manipulate the newspaper seller for the Panaroma show (IIRC, it could be the Woffinden show), so maybe he was trying to firm up the details of Jones' alleged encounter with Hanratty? Just to make sure she got her description of him correct.

The purpose? That's easy, to give Hanratty an alibi.

KR,
Vic.

[jimarilyn]

I have absolutely no idea what the nature of this conspiracy was, but I can make some suggestions.

I've already mentioned how Terry Evans supposedly tried to manipulate the newspaper seller for the Panaroma show (IIRC, it could be the Woffinden show), so maybe he was trying to firm up the details of Jones' alleged encounter with Hanratty? Just to make sure she got her description of him correct.

The purpose? That's easy, to give Hanratty an alibi.

KR,
Vic.

And why, Victor, would Terry Evans of all people wish to give Hanratty an alibi ? They had only ever met once (July 25th) and that was the occasion when Hanratty knicked a new pair of his shoes. I hardly think that the theft of Evans's new shoes would endear Hanratty to him do you ?

It's very interesting to note that you're a conspiracy theorist. Believing that Mrs Jones and Terry Evans were in cahoots with each other I would have thought you had at least some notion what their conspiracy consisted of.

[john]

Peter Alphon Payments

Hello

It has been written in earlier posts that the regular set of payments which Peter Alphon received in Sept to November 1961 were from Jean Justice. This was very very unlikely as Justice was away in September in Europe and to all sides, even the Justice dislikers, they have to admit that he only became involved with the case at the committal proceedings in Ampthill, and by then the deposit account payments had stopped. It is unlikely the cash deposit money came from Alphon's parents as they were not in a position to give him the amount of money that it totalled eventually. As Foot rightly conjectures it is unlikely that it was from betting as there would appear to have been no other payments on a regular payment after November and not 1962, for which year Foot had also obtained records for. It is not likely to have been libel or newspaper settlements as it was cash payments going into the account.

So where and for what did the money come from?

[jimarilyn]

Hello

It has been written in earlier posts that the regular set of payments which Peter Alphon received in Sept to November 1961 were from Jean Justice. This was very very unlikely as Justice was away in September in Europe and to all sides, even the Justice dislikers, they have to admit that he only became involved with the case at the committal proceedings in Ampthill, and by then the deposit account payments had stopped. It is unlikely the cash deposit money came from Alphon's parents as they were not in a position to give him the amount of money that it totalled eventually. As Foot rightly conjectures it is unlikely that it was from betting as there would appear to have been no other payments on a regular payment after November and not 1962, for which year Foot had also obtained records for. It is not likely to have been libel or newspaper settlements as it was cash payments going into the account.

So where and for what did the money come from?

Hi John,

Very good post. It was Victor who suggested strongly that Jean Justice was the source of Alphon's unaccounted for Ł5,000. Victor forgets (or didn't know) that this was impossible as Alphon and Justice didn't meet each other for the first time until almost mid February 1962, a few months later.

regards,
James

[Victor]

And why, Victor, would Terry Evans of all people wish to give Hanratty an alibi ? They had only ever met once (July 25th) and that was the occasion when Hanratty knicked a new pair of his shoes. I hardly think that the theft of Evans's new shoes would endear Hanratty to him do you ?

I don't know. Woffinden reported the irregularities with the newspaper guy, so the source is good, why would Evans try and manipulate things then? What's the truth with the newspaper guy? Can we believe Evans and Hanratty that they never met before? They're both burglars\fences and liars, so what happened? Honour amongst thieves? Shared confidences?

It's very interesting to note that you're a conspiracy theorist. Believing that Mrs Jones and Terry Evans were in cahoots with each other I would have thought you had at least some notion what their conspiracy consisted of.

You really did just call me a conspiracy theorist who doesn't know what the conpiracy is! Wow, that's dumb! I must have really hit you in a weak point there!

I don't believe they were in cahoots, I'm just pointing out some coincidences.

KR,
Vic.

[Victor]

Hi Viv,

You are a monozygotic because that means identical. One cell spliting into two foetus.

That's a very good response if I may say but does that type of 'demonstration' really eliminate the alibi as evidence if it is all but impossible to achieve? Not so bothered about going into the specifics of this case but more on validity of rebutting a defence (or prosecution) with alset of if buts and maybe's that might just prove possible if highly unlikely.

I guess that's where the jury come in - do they believe that someone would go to extreme lengths to get an alibi? I look at like the Lusk letter, Dear Boss and Saucy Jacky, etc., they could be genuine or hoaxes, it depends upon what you believe. I believe the balance of evidence indicates that Hanratty wasn't in the sweetshop or Rhyl, but learned of someone who was and based his "alibi" on that - the number of people coming forward means that there almost certainly was a 30ish man with dark hair looking for lodgings (without any luggage) round Rhyl that week, but it wasn't Hanratty.

KR,
Vic.

[jimarilyn]

Can we believe Evans and Hanratty that they never met before? They're both burglars\fences and liars, so what happened? Honour amongst thieves? Shared confidences?

So Evans has now become a liar and burglar in your eyes Victor. What another outrageous accusation. Where is your proof that Evans was a burglar and liar. Do you just make it up as you go along ???

You really did just call me a conspiracy theorist who doesn't know what the conpiracy is! Wow, that's dumb! I must have really hit you in a weak point there!

I've tried hard to make sense of this statement Victor, but your logic completely escapes me and I don't know what you're trying to say.

I don't believe they were in cahoots, I'm just pointing out some coincidences.

No, you are most definitely contradicting yourself again Victor. Re-read your earlier post (#3484) where you clearly state that Mrs Jones and Terry Evans were COLLUDING with each other.

[Victor]

It has been written in earlier posts that the regular set of payments which Peter Alphon received in Sept to November 1961 were from Jean Justice. This was very very unlikely as Justice was away in September in Europe and to all sides, even the Justice dislikers, they have to admit that he only became involved with the case at the committal proceedings in Ampthill, and by then the deposit account payments had stopped.

Hi John,
I realise that now, but we don't have a full breakdown of the payments and withdrawals, and even Foot is ambiguous about them.

It is unlikely the cash deposit money came from Alphon's parents as they were not in a position to give him the amount of money that it totalled eventually.

But his mother was helping him out by clearing some bills.

As Foot rightly conjectures it is unlikely that it was from betting as there would appear to have been no other payments on a regular payment after November and not 1962, for which year Foot had also obtained records for.

The payments stopped when he got mixed in the A6 case...What a coincidence!

It is not likely to have been libel or newspaper settlements as it was cash payments going into the account.

Some of the largest sums where cheques from newspapers, but that doesn't mean that unscrupulous journalists weren't handing out the cash for tip offs, etc.

So where and for what did the money come from?

I'd like to know too. But it would be useful to know exactly what we are talking about and have the full data in tabular form so direct comparisons can be made, instead of the biased subterfuge and misdirection that appears in Foot's book.

KR,
Vic.