a6 murder

[jimornot?]

[QUOTE=Victor;74458]Hi Viv,


I pretty much agree with all of that. The police actions, Swanwick's actions in court, Alphon's actions are all highly suspect, but that doesn't mean that Hanratty didn't do it, just that there were lots of doubts that should have rung big alarm bells for the original jury......

.... Simply the DNA. It conclusively proves Hanratty did it, and there WERE lots of dubious events and situations and coincidences that left huge doubts in my mind until the DNA proved it.

With hindsight I can now look back on the trial data and see that those coincidences were nothing more than coincidental.


thanks Vic - I thought you had entertained those doubts. In all honesty I was disappointed by the DNA results - I believed Hanratty was innocent right up to that point and it seems certain his family did too.

Having for years believed a miscarriage had occurred it was (still is) hard to change entrenched beliefs. I know (and respect the fact) you believe in the DNA and I had not realised before reading this thread that there have been some genuine doubts over the accuracy of LCN testing. I don't want to go down that route myself [please ] but it does give some reason to at least pursue the opportunity of sitting on the fence as I do. I appreciate fully though that you have no doubts - you are a bit of a lone voice here Vic so it's good you have such an unshakeable belief in H's guilt.

It is true that life truly is stranger than fiction and in many events there are very strange coincidences. You may well be right that they are just that in this case but the police actions you refer to in your post certainly do nothing to give faith that they played fair or were even efficient in their investigation. Supposition I know but you can see how that helps fuel the uncomfortable feeling that something stank about the prosecution case.

The feeling I had about Hanratty was that he didn't really seem to fit the bill as a murderer and rapist although he was no angel at all. But that is only based on reading PF & CW's books which helped to form my beliefs in the first place. I thought Limehouse's recent post (hope you are Ok Julie) was a great example of how people can act in ways completely alien to anything you might expect from them

So I still sit on the fence but I love this thread and the counter arguments / discussion points raised. It has all you'd want eg expertise, forthright views (e.g Reg, you) , cut and thrust, sheer hard work (eg where does Jim get all those press cuttings?), Humour (eg Tony) and occasional but oh so welcome posters (eg Limehouse and other excellent contributors). I am so disappointed when there seems to be a bit of inactivity as I look forward to all contributions. Wish we could get Graham, Rob & Steve back though

all the best

viv

[jimarilyn]

thanks Vic - I thought you had entertained those doubts. In all honesty I was disappointed by the DNA results - I believed Hanratty was innocent right up to that point and it seems certain his family did too.

Having for years believed a miscarriage had occurred it was (still is) hard to change entrenched beliefs. I know (and respect the fact) you believe in the DNA and I had not realised before reading this thread that there have been some genuine doubts over the accuracy of LCN testing. I don't want to go down that route myself [please ] but it does give some reason to at least pursue the opportunity of sitting on the fence as I do. I appreciate fully though that you have no doubts - you are a bit of a lone voice here Vic so it's good you have such an unshakeable belief in H's guilt.

It is true that life truly is stranger than fiction and in many events there are very strange coincidences. You may well be right that they are just that in this case but the police actions you refer to in your post certainly do nothing to give faith that they played fair or were even efficient in their investigation. Supposition I know but you can see how that helps fuel the uncomfortable feeling that something stank about the prosecution case.

The feeling I had about Hanratty was that he didn't really seem to fit the bill as a murderer and rapist although he was no angel at all. But that is only based on reading PF & CW's books which helped to form my beliefs in the first place. I thought Limehouse's recent post (hope you are Ok Julie) was a great example of how people can act in ways completely alien to anything you might expect from them

So I still sit on the fence but I love this thread and the counter arguments / discussion points raised. It has all you'd want eg expertise, forthright views (e.g Reg, you) , cut and thrust, sheer hard work (eg where does Jim get all those press cuttings?), Humour (eg Tony) and occasional but oh so welcome posters (eg Limehouse and other excellent contributors). I am so disappointed when there seems to be a bit of inactivity as I look forward to all contributions. Wish we could get Graham, Rob & Steve back though

all the best

viv

Hi Viv,

Another fine post by your good self.

Although personally I believe 100% in James Hanratty's innocence, I can fully understand anyone sitting on the fence (watch out for splinters in your derriere though) with regards to this intriguing murder mystery. The whole case abounds with contradictory evidence/statements and tantalising incidents (eg. the Mrs Rouch story and the elderly woman in the public gallery at Hanratty's appeal, to name but two) and it's often hard to determine what's true and what's untrue.

I am not related in any way to James Hanratty and therefore have no ulterior motive/agenda for believing in and proclaiming his innocence. Something however draws me powerfully to this case and it is never that far from my thoughts. Through reading all the various books written about the case I feel as if I have come to know James Hanratty well. You quite rightly point out that he was no angel (he admitted as much himself during his trial evidence) but that does not mean he changed overnight from a car thief/burglar into a cold blooded rapist and murderer. I don't believe he had it in his character/make-up to be such.

Re. those press cuttings which I've from time to time attached, I downloaded them from the Daily Mirror Archives site a few months ago. I subscribed to a 10 or 11 day package which I made full use of and downloaded about 200 hundred press clippings (in PDF format) related in some way to the A6 murder. I didn't want to flood the thread with these clippings (for obvious reasons) and tried to include them only when the need arose and where it felt appropriate to do so.

I endorse your last two sentences completely. I too get disappointed whenever there is a prolonged spell of inactivity on the thread. There are plenty of very intelligent posters to this most fascinating and addictive thread who for some reason have not posted for ages. Their future contributions would be welcomely received.

since early,
James

[Tony]

Hi Viv,

Another fine post by your good self.

Although personally I believe 100% in James Hanratty's innocence, I can fully understand anyone sitting on the fence (watch out for splinters in your derriere though) with regards to this intriguing murder mystery. The whole case abounds with contradictory evidence/statements and tantalising incidents (eg. the Mrs Rouch story and the elderly woman in the public gallery at Hanratty's appeal, to name but two) and it's often hard to determine what's true and what's untrue.

I am not related in any way to James Hanratty and therefore have no ulterior motive/agenda for believing in and proclaiming his innocence. Something however draws me powerfully to this case and it is never that far from my thoughts. Through reading all the various books written about the case I feel as if I have come to know James Hanratty well. You quite rightly point out that he was no angel (he admitted as much himself during his trial evidence) but that does not mean he changed overnight from a car thief/burglar into a cold blooded rapist and murderer. I don't believe he had it in his character/make-up to be such.

Re. those press cuttings which I've from time to time attached, I downloaded them from the Daily Mirror Archives site a few months ago. I subscribed to a 10 or 11 day package which I made full use of and downloaded about 200 hundred press clippings (in PDF format) related in some way to the A6 murder. I didn't want to flood the thread with these clippings (for obvious reasons) and tried to include them only when the need arose and where it felt appropriate to do so.

I endorse your last two sentences completely. I too get disappointed whenever there is a prolonged spell of inactivity on the thread. There are plenty of very intelligent posters to this most fascinating and addictive thread who for some reason have not posted for ages. Their future contributions would be welcomely received.

since early,
James

A very good day to you James,

I am not related to the Hanratty family either and I have never met any of them but just as you say there is something very addictive and compelling about the case.

I suppose if you add up all the hours that I have spent reading the books, time and time again, searching for old books and magazines not to mention reading and contributing to this thread and I also attended Manchester College of Education on the A6 murder course. The came the interweb and I’m off again. So I suppose I will have spent very many weeks of my life on the subject.

I t does not matter about repeating ourselves because that is inevitable and we may repeat information that others have not noticed before. I only found out myself a couple of weeks ago about the Alsatian dog owned by Mrs Walker and described in prison by James Hanratty to his father. Foot and Woffinden both must have known about this so why no mention of it in either of their books?
So you see new or lost/concealed bits of info do come out from time to time and I like you think something will come out one day that might just upset the Establishment apple cart; we must accept however that the longer time passes the more remote that is.

I had completely forgotten about the Mrs Rouch incident but as you say it is another very strange thing to have happened. Do so many strange things happen in other cases?

Have a nice weekend James and I’m keeping my fingers crossed for you in the early kick off this afternoon. I will have to go and lie down in a darkened room if the worst happens.

Tony.

[jimarilyn]

A very good day to you James,

I am not related to the Hanratty family either and I have never met any of them but just as you say there is something very addictive and compelling about the case.

I suppose if you add up all the hours that I have spent reading the books, time and time again, searching for old books and magazines not to mention reading and contributing to this thread and I also attended Manchester College of Education on the A6 murder course. The came the interweb and I’m off again. So I suppose I will have spent very many weeks of my life on the subject.

I t does not matter about repeating ourselves because that is inevitable and we may repeat information that others have not noticed before. I only found out myself a couple of weeks ago about the Alsatian dog owned by Mrs Walker and described in prison by James Hanratty to his father. Foot and Woffinden both must have known about this so why no mention of it in either of their books?
So you see new or lost/concealed bits of info do come out from time to time and I like you think something will come out one day that might just upset the Establishment apple cart; we must accept however that the longer time passes the more remote that is.

I had completely forgotten about the Mrs Rouch incident but as you say it is another very strange thing to have happened. Do so many strange things happen in other cases?

Have a nice weekend James and I’m keeping my fingers crossed for you in the early kick off this afternoon. I will have to go and lie down in a darkened room if the worst happens.

Tony.

Hi Tony,

Your knowledge, grasp and understanding of this case is second to none. Although I was aware of the case for a long time I had only a superficial knowledge of it (unlike you) and didn't become truly fascinated with it until the early nineties, a couple of decades after yourself.

You're absolutely correct about the inevitability of repeating oneself, it just cannot be avoided. So many aspects of the case are worth re-visiting time and again in order to try and gain fresh insight and to see if anything has been overlooked previously. It's like a great film, the more times you watch it the more you get out of it (Hitchcock's Vertigo is a good example).

As for today's match, if we play like we did mid-week against Raul Madrid we have every chance of beating Ferguson's red devils (duck Becks, Fergie's lobbed a footie boot at your face). If not, I could be joining you in the dark room. Glad to see the Owls have picked up lately.

regards,
James


PS. A couple of evenings ago I finally got around to watching that Glenn Ford western again, "The fastest gun alive". As you say it's a very good, thoughtful, western. Broderick Crawford looked a bit out of place though as a gunslinger I thought.

[reg1965]

A very good morning to you Reg,

Just a point about the Rhyl alibi that does not seem to appear in either Foot or Woffinden (correct me please if that’s wrong).

When Mr Hanratty senior visited his son in prison shortly before the execution he said:
“Surely you remember something about these people in Rhyl”.

James Hanratty then went on to describe an Alsatian dog he had seen at Mrs Walker’s house. Mr Hanratty had been to Rhyl looking for witnesses to aid his son’s defence and he recalled seeing a photograph of an Alsatian dog when he visited Mrs Walker at her home.

Mrs Walker sent a letter to Bindman’s solicitors in 1975 saying that she owned an Alsation dog from 1954 to 1964 and it was with her outside her house when Hanratty called on 22nd August 1961. (It was always with her). He asked her if the dog would bite him and she said “no” so he stroked it.

Now I know Alsatians are fairly common nowadays but I can’t recall even seeing a single one in the early 1960’s. Mind you, up here, we only had mongrels then and their descendants are still around today. I might be wrong but I think Alsatians were fairly rare in those days and such an incident would be remarkable if made up and then proved to be the case.

Tony.

Hi Tony
You didn't reply to my earlier post asking where you had gotten this information from.

Is the evidence of Hanratty or his father recorded in a statement somewhere?

Surely Mr Hanratty snr would have passed this to Kleinmann for investigation.

Did Kleinmann really mess up as much as is thought? More than likely.

This just adds to the corroboration of Hanratty's Rhyl alibi, which was already quite impressive.

Cheers
Reg

[jimornot?]

[QUOTE=Tony;74590].........

I suppose if you add up all the hours that I have spent reading the books, time and time again, searching for old books and magazines not to mention reading and contributing to this thread and I also attended Manchester College of Education on the A6 murder course. The came the interweb and I’m off again. So I suppose I will have spent very many weeks of my life on the subject.

I t does not matter about repeating ourselves because that is inevitable and we may repeat information that others have not noticed before. I only found out myself a couple of weeks ago about the Alsatian dog owned by Mrs Walker and described in prison by James Hanratty to his father. Foot and Woffinden both must have known about this so why no mention of it in either of their books?
So you see new or lost/concealed bits of info do come out from time to time and I like you think something will come out one day that might just upset the Establishment apple cart; we must accept however that the longer time passes the more remote that is.



Hi James & Tony

I think you have both hit the nail on the head here. People have indicated a concern that they don't feel 'qualified' to add opinions here but what you have said is spot on. Better to repeat things or go over old ground as very few will be able to keep up with over 3400 postings to date.

Very interested to hear about your course Tony - was it worthwhile, what was the general consensus there?

all the best

Viv

[jimornot?]

hi Reg

I meant to ask (forgive me if I have missed any earlier reply to this question) does Mr Woffinden know of this thread and if so, has indicated anything about it?

all the best

Viv

[jimornot?]

clippings

[QUOTE=jimarilyn;74588]

..............
Re. those press cuttings which I've from time to time attached, I downloaded them from the Daily Mirror Archives site a few months ago. I subscribed to a 10 or 11 day package which I made full use of and downloaded about 200 hundred press clippings (in PDF format) related in some way to the A6 murder. I didn't want to flood the thread with these clippings (for obvious reasons) and tried to include them only when the need arose and where it felt appropriate to do so.


Hi James

thanks for your response. The info you add through those PDF's in particular is really interesting. Over what period do the clippings extend? You never know you may yet dig up what finally happened to Bill Ewer, Roy Langdale, Louise Anderson to name just 3 of the 'peripheral' characters in this case.

I haven't seen anything else on Peter Alphon via google since the notes on his demise - is that a bit surprising or is it only disappointing because we are all so interested in this subject?

all the best

Viv

[reg1965]

hi Reg

I meant to ask (forgive me if I have missed any earlier reply to this question) does Mr Woffinden know of this thread and if so, has indicated anything about it?

all the best

Viv

Hi Viv
I mentioned it once in an email to him. No response on this issue thus far.

From what I gather Bob is still quite adamant of Hanratty's innocence, and is still very much involved in the case.

Hope this helps
Regards
Reg

[jimornot?]

Hi Viv
I mentioned it once in an email to him. No response on this issue thus far.

From what I gather Bob is still quite adamant of Hanratty's innocence, and is still very much involved in the case.

Hope this helps
Regards
Reg

Thanks Reg. If Mr W does find the site I am sure he would find it motivating to know the case still has so much interest and so many very learned and sensible posters.

I notice that Stewart Evans contributes pretty regulally to the JTR thread and he has contributed at least 2 books to that subject.

Glad to learn of his continuing interest in the case

ATB

Viv

[jimarilyn]

Hi James

thanks for your response. The info you add through those PDF's in particular is really interesting. Over what period do the clippings extend? You never know you may yet dig up what finally happened to Bill Ewer, Roy Langdale, Louise Anderson to name just 3 of the 'peripheral' characters in this case.

I haven't seen anything else on Peter Alphon via google since the notes on his demise - is that a bit surprising or is it only disappointing because we are all so interested in this subject?

all the best

Viv

Hi Viv,

The Daily Mirror newspapers I searched were for the period 1961 to 1980 (1980 was the latest year available at that time). Only one small article appeared when I keyed in William Ewer's name (this was from July 1971 when he issued a libel writ against Paul Foot, whose book had been recently published).

Almost a year ago I did discover that in November 1969 Ewer, acting on behalf of an anonymous buyer, bought a Holbein miniature masterpiece for £21,000 ( a world record then)at Sotheby's. Three years earlier, in 1966, Ewer had sold his boutique shop in Swiss Cottage and upgraded to posh Oxford Street. It would very much seem he was flourishing financially and not strapped for cash.

I think it's very interesting and revealing to note that he never once tried to sue Peter Alphon (Alphon named him as the Central Figure behind the murder). This I find very puzzling.

I must say I am surprised that there's been no follow-up anywhere on the internet to the news about Alphon's demise in January. I wonder how Richard Ingrams learned of his death ??


regards,
James

[SCREAMER]

Hi again people. What? No one is surprised that Peter Alphon is dead??:shocked3 Perhaps everyone knew already. Well it was certainly a big surprise to me anyway.
Love Screamer

[jimarilyn]

Hi again people. What? No one is surprised that Peter Alphon is dead??:shocked3 Perhaps everyone knew already. Well it was certainly a big surprise to me anyway.
Love Screamer

Hi SCREAMER,

Yes, I'd say it was a big surprise/shock to most of us on here when Stevenb posted about a month ago (post 3304) that Alphon had died in January. It was a couple or so weeks before you registered on this forum. I thought there would be something more added on the internet about this but as yet nothing. Very surprising considering that he was (and probably still is to many people) the Prime Suspect in the case.

regards,
James

[SCREAMER]

Hi James. Yes it is quite surprising. I for one will certainly keep my eyes peeled.
Screamer.

[Tony]

Hi Tony
You didn't reply to my earlier post asking where you had gotten this information from.

Is the evidence of Hanratty or his father recorded in a statement somewhere?

Surely Mr Hanratty snr would have passed this to Kleinmann for investigation.

Did Kleinmann really mess up as much as is thought? More than likely.

This just adds to the corroboration of Hanratty's Rhyl alibi, which was already quite impressive.

Cheers
Reg

Good morning to you Reg,

The only place I have ever seen mention about the Alsatian dog is contained within the Hawser Report.

You will know that Mr C Lewis Hawser was asked by Roy Jenkins to review the case in 1974 in the light of Paul Foot’s book PF’s book came out in 1971 after several articles by him in Private Eye and a serialisation of his book prior to publication in the Sun Newspaper. (About the only bit of news that I can ever recall in that ‘newspaper’).


Mr Hawser presented his report in July 1975 so nobody seemed to be in much of a hurry.

Paul Foot, as far as I am aware, had never previously mentioned Mrs Walker’s dog. It is first, again as far as I am aware, mentioned by Hawser on page 68 items 276, 277 & 278.

Item 276 deals with how JH told his father about seeing the Alsatian and how his father remembered seeing a photo at Mrs Walker’s house.

Item 277 deals with a letter to Hawser from the Hanratty’s solicitor’s, Bindman’s, which included a letter from Mrs Walker’s solicitors dated 11th Feb 1975. In the letter Mrs Walker confirms she owned an Alsatian from 1954-1964 and Hanratty stroked it after finding out that it would not bite him.
Mrs Walker said she felt it strange that Hanratty never mentioned the dog in court.
Mr Hanratty Snr said his son had mentioned the dog incident in court.

Item 278 says the dog was not mentioned in court nor was it referred to in any of Mrs Walker’s statements at the time. Hawser says he is surprised that Hanratty did not mention it in court if the incident actually occurred.

A few observations here: Mrs Walker did own such a dog at the relevant time, she confirms Hanratty’s story about it but that is the last we hear of it until the Hawser report 14 years later.
Paul Foot went though the Hawser Report with a fine tooth comb and when he updated his own book does not give it a mention. I get the impression that Hawser included the incident somewhat reluctantly but had to because of the letter from Bindman’s. But it seems a solid bit of evidence to me. You could hardly accuse Mr Hanratty Snr of leading his son after he himself saw a photo of the dog because no great fuss seems to have been made of it at the time. Nor was it presented at the appeal. All very strange.

It has never been referred to ever again by either Foot or Woffinden but for a reason known only to himself it was brought into the public domain by Lewis Hawser who seemed to have Hanratty down as guilty before he even put pen to paper.

Tony