a6 murder

[Tony]

It's a dog's life.

A very good morning to you Reg,

Just a point about the Rhyl alibi that does not seem to appear in either Foot or Woffinden (correct me please if that’s wrong).

When Mr Hanratty senior visited his son in prison shortly before the execution he said:
“Surely you remember something about these people in Rhyl”.

James Hanratty then went on to describe an Alsatian dog he had seen at Mrs Walker’s house. Mr Hanratty had been to Rhyl looking for witnesses to aid his son’s defence and he recalled seeing a photograph of an Alsatian dog when he visited Mrs Walker at her home.

Mrs Walker sent a letter to Bindman’s solicitors in 1975 saying that she owned an Alsation dog from 1954 to 1964 and it was with her outside her house when Hanratty called on 22nd August 1961. (It was always with her). He asked her if the dog would bite him and she said “no” so he stroked it.

Now I know Alsatians are fairly common nowadays but I can’t recall even seeing a single one in the early 1960’s. Mind you, up here, we only had mongrels then and their descendants are still around today. I might be wrong but I think Alsatians were fairly rare in those days and such an incident would be remarkable if made up and then proved to be the case.

Tony.

[Tony]

Scene 1: The incident room near Ampthill. 24th August 1961.

Enter Basil Montague Acott followed by Kenneth Oxford to meet the assembled team of detectives’

“Morning lads. I’m Bob Acott, call me Guv, and this is my Assistant Kenny Oxford, call him Sarge or Oxo.
Now this is a very messy business and we’ve got to clear it up pronto. All we know to date is that a nutcase has accosted a couple in a car, driven off with them for about six hours, then shot the man and raped and shot his female companion. At the moment we’ve nothing to go on except the girl is still alive. Her name is Valerie Storie and the dead bloke was Martin Gregory.”

“Guv, Guv.”

“What’s up Oxo?”

“It’s Michael Gregston, Guv.”

“Who is?”

“The bloke who got shot.”

“Oh yes that’s right. Isn’t that what I said? Anyway we’ve got to put this case to bed and fast; and when I say fast I mean bloody fast. Now any questions?”

“Yes Guv, what expenses are we on working out of London?”

“I don’t believe it. Look this is no time for arseing about. Oxo will sort your expenses out later. This is bloody serious two people have been shot and if we don’t get somebody’s neck in the noose soon my head will be on the block.
So get out there and bring me something back.”


Scene 2: The incident room near Ampthill. 30th August 1961.

“Right lads, settle down what have you got for me?”

Silence.

“Come on what have we found out from the car? What have the forensic boys come up with?”

“Nothing, Guv.”

“Nothing. Well what have you lot been up to all week? Have you no underworld contacts with any info? What about your noses?”

“Guv, the word is snouts.”

“What is Oxo?”

“Police jargon for informers, Guv.”

“Oh, is it Oxo? Well you learn something new every day.”

“Right lads while you lot have been running round in circles me and Oxo have had a bit of a result. We’ve put out an alert to find anyone acting suspiciously after the murder of this Mike Greenstone and we’ve found this strange guy Alphonse; the girl in the car has put together an identikit and he’s a dead ringer for it. Not only that we’ve got the murder gun.


“Oh the divers soon found that Guv. Was it in the Thames?”

“No erm actually the murderer left it on a bus.”

Laughter and giggles.

“Now look here you can stop bloody laughing because that’s what happened isn’t it Oxo?”

“Now then this Alphonse character stayed at the Vienna Hotel, you know the one that old matey Glickberg works at.”

“What Nuddsy, Guv? Well you can’t believe a word that fellah says.”

“Yes actually I think that’s the name he’s using this week. Well if me and Oxo can get him to give us a statement implicating this Alphonse we’re nearly there. All we need is to find some incriminating evidence in his room; you’ve still got all those bullets handy haven’t you Oxo? Well better keep a couple of them in your pocket; never know when they might come in handy. Now all we need is a positive ID from Valerie Storie. That’s her name isn’t it Oxo and we’re home and dry?”
So see you all back here in a couple of days and it should be all but over.”


Tony.


P.S I have no evidence that the honourable officer's wife's name was Cybil.

Scene 3 The Incident room at Ampthill 25th September 1961.

Enter Basil Acott and Sergeant Oxford to address the room packed with London’s top detectives.

“Right lads quiet please. Come on lets have a bit of hush. Oi shut up will you? Settle down, settle down. You lot over in the corner stop playing cards and you over there put that racing paper away. Bloody hell Oxo I really don’t know why I bother. I really don’t.
Right this is serious we’ve still got this murder case to solve and by the looks of you lot we haven’t got much further than the last time I saw you.”

“Hang on Guv you told us that you and Oxo had got the murderer. You said it was that Alphonse bloke and the girl had put an identikit picture together that was a dead ringer of him so we sort of thought it was all over bar the shouting”

“Well it isn’t all over”. (Basil bangs his fist on the desk and all the detectives go quiet).
“No it’s not over by a long way. Tell them what happened yesterday Oxo”.

“Well me and the guvnor set up this ID parade with Alphon on it and they were going to bring the girl in to pick him out. Except she didn’t”.

“What she didn’t turn up Sarge?”

“No of course she bloody turned up you idiot she just did not pick Alphonse out. Mind you she did pick somebody out that looked very much like him. Still that doesn’t count for anything now does it Guv?”

“No it doesn’t, Oxo more’s the pity. Bloody women they can’t get anything right. Anyway we’ve been back to see Nuddsy and he’s changed his statement again so maybe it wasn’t Alphonse after all”

“Hey Guv how may statements has Nuddsy made now? The Judge won’t like it if ever anything goes to court like that you know”.

“Now look here Comic Cuts never mind about Nuddsy we’ve now got the statement we want from him and what’s more we now have another suspect. How’s that for detective work? Pretty impressive eh?”

“Who is it Guv anybody we know?”

“Well it is a bloke using the name J Ryan but we all know him better as Jimmy Hanratty”.

Laughter all around the room.

“Guv you must be joking Jimmy Hanratty is a tea leaf and a hopeless one at that, he’s certainly not a rapist and a murderer”

“Now look I’ve told you before I’m in charge and you can stop laughing. It’s not funny. If I say we’re after Jimmy then we are after Jimmy. End of” Anyway Nuddsy says he stayed at the Vienna the night before the murder.”

“Bit of a coincidence isn’t it Guv both suspects in the same hotel. Best of luck with that one in Court Pal. By the way I’ve had no expenses since I’ve been up here. In fact none of us have, have we lads?”

“Christ, Oxo, give me strength is this what the Met has come to, a bunch of mercenaries masquerading as detectives and questioning everything the gaffer says? And if DC MT Head over there calls me Pal again he’s back with the wooden tops.

“I know Guv pathetic really. I think we’ll have to go it alone on this one.”

The detectives are dismissed to do some more detecting.

“You know what Oxo this case is a lot more difficult than we first imagined. It’s only been a month and already everything that can go wrong has done. I’ve had the pathologist’s report from bloody Simpson and he’s only gone and said that Michael Greenstone was shot with a .32 and he damn well knows we’ve got a .38. I’ve had a word with him and he won’t change his mind either. I mean what sort of a man is he supposed to be; he’s supposed to be on our side isn’t he?
Anyway we can’t change the gun now. That bloody bus cleaner has said on the News that he recognised it as a .38 so we’re stuck with it. Do you think anyone will notice in Court if we get that far Oxo?”

“Shouldn’t think so Guv.”

“Good. I’ll tell you what though, Oxo, this is going to be a tricky one all right.”

“Yes Guv.”

“Well let’s get stuck into the Scotch and we’ll go home and get some sleep we’ve a lot more evidence to fabricate, I mean discover, in the next couple of weeks.”
By the way I’ve just remembered I told Mrs Acott I’d get her some flowers today and now all the shops will be shut so I’ll be in her bad books as well; just as well my way home takes me past the cemetery. Roll on retirement. What do you say Oxo?”

“Yes, Guv”.

Tony.

[jimarilyn]

Good afternoon Tony,

I must say you've surpassed yourself with this effort. Absolutely brilliant, incisive and hilarious. Again, not a million miles away from the truth I'd say. Are you sure you weren't a fly on the wall in that incident room ?
You have a rare gift indeed.
Excellent.

Perhaps your next effort might pertain to a certain Morris Minor, parked in a cornfield near the Station Inn, Taplow, say between the hours 9.30pm to 11.30pm one August evening almost half a century ago. That would be very interesting indeed.


regards,
James

[Tony]

Good afternoon Tony,

I must say you've surpassed yourself with this effort. Absolutely brilliant, incisive and hilarious. Again, not a million miles away from the truth I'd say. Are you sure you weren't a fly on the wall in that incident room ?
You have a rare gift indeed.
Excellent.

Perhaps your next effort might pertain to a certain Morris Minor, parked in a cornfield near the Station Inn, Taplow, say between the hours 9.30pm to 11.30pm one August evening almost half a century ago. That would be very interesting indeed.


regards,
James

Well thank you for those kind comments James,

This morning I awoke to brilliant sunshine and I had some gardening planned. That was soon put on the back burner after a mini blizzard. Now it’s hail stones like you would not believe.

The reason for my post this morning was an attempt to lighten things up a little. I think things have got a little too serious of late and I am as guilty as the next man. Whatever any of us thinks about this case it was a serious and tragic event: a man was murdered, a woman was raped and shot and possibly a totally innocent man was executed. So terrible; yes. But we are now in 2009 and we can’t change events but at least we can have a laugh at ourselves and each other.

I may re-appear shortly in your Morris Minor but as who or what? I’ll think about it.

Look after yourself James,

Tony.

[reg1965]

A very good morning to you Reg,

Just a point about the Rhyl alibi that does not seem to appear in either Foot or Woffinden (correct me please if that’s wrong).

When Mr Hanratty senior visited his son in prison shortly before the execution he said:
“Surely you remember something about these people in Rhyl”.

James Hanratty then went on to describe an Alsatian dog he had seen at Mrs Walker’s house. Mr Hanratty had been to Rhyl looking for witnesses to aid his son’s defence and he recalled seeing a photograph of an Alsatian dog when he visited Mrs Walker at her home.

Mrs Walker sent a letter to Bindman’s solicitors in 1975 saying that she owned an Alsation dog from 1954 to 1964 and it was with her outside her house when Hanratty called on 22nd August 1961. (It was always with her). He asked her if the dog would bite him and she said “no” so he stroked it.

Now I know Alsatians are fairly common nowadays but I can’t recall even seeing a single one in the early 1960’s. Mind you, up here, we only had mongrels then and their descendants are still around today. I might be wrong but I think Alsatians were fairly rare in those days and such an incident would be remarkable if made up and then proved to be the case.

Tony.

Hi Tony
I have never heard of this fact about the case. Did you get it from the Hawser report?

It just goes to show that only evidence that further supports Hanratty's case has been found since the original trial and not one scrap that dents it.

Neither the Nimmo nor Hawser reports suggested any new evidence that could be used to try to bolster what was already felt to be a very dodgy conviction. So they just reported that the original conviction was as safe as houses. The collective disquiet among the general populace was just sold a dummy that wasn't at all convincing

The collective weight of the Rhyl alibi should have brought the case back to appeal in either of the investigations.

It took Bob Woffindens investigation to finally get another appeal? The establishment, though, seem determined to thwart the Hanratty family at every turn. We'll have 'em next time, believe me.

I'll have to defer knowledge of the 1960's distribution of dog breeds to my elders and probably betters, like you!

BW
Reg

[Victor]

He also falsified evidence with regard to the notes taken on Hanratty's arrest. ESDA proves that notes were rewritten after being taken. The word kip was probably introduced here. Even so Hanratty couldn't read or write too well so the police could have written down the Sonnets of Shakespeare and Hanratty would not have known.

OK, so the notes were re-written, that doesn't prove that they originally didn't contain the word "kip", and that is why you've used the qualifiers I've highlighted.

Hanratty did not mention kip at all. The statements mention the word kip three times. Therefore false exact contemporaneous record keeping by Big Baz and his batman Oxo. I'm shocked.

You only have Hanratty's word that he didn't say "kip" and he's a proved liar (the changing alibi) therefore untrustworthy, hence the rest of your supposition above is unsupported.

KR,
Vic.

[Victor]

Hi all
Consider the strange tale of Mrs Louise Anderson.

To all intents and purposes she is a friend of Hanratty's who fences his stolen gear.

He occasionally stays overnight at her house and she fixes him up with a girl that he might like to take out on dates.

He gets charged with the A6 murder and suddenly she thinks he's satan.

What could have happened here?

Reg

What could have happened? Hanratty's a murderous rapist who had wormed his way into her confidence. She felt betrayed.

[jimornot?]

What could have happened? Hanratty's a murderous rapist who had wormed his way into her confidence. She felt betrayed.

Hi Vic

Or she was leant on by the police - possible don't you agree? Did she ever get charged with handling goods that Hanratty sold her?

ATB

Viv

[jimornot?]

[QUOTE=Victor;73454]OK, so the notes were re-written, that doesn't prove that they originally didn't contain the word "kip", and that is why you've used the qualifiers I've highlighted.

any thoughts on why they were re-written Vic? Presumably no nefarious reasons? But if not, why wsren't originals kept for comparisons.

Can't have it both ways. it seems as H is a liar and so everything he says can be doubted (possibly correct presumption, who knows?) but if police withheld evidence / changed it then nothing they say can be trusted either?

Still to be convinced why they actually named Alphon to begin with and yet dropped interest in him so soon after the ID parade (I understand). At best smacks of incredible incompetence so again, can their subsequent work be trusted?

ATB

Viv

[jimornot?]

Now I know Alsatians are fairly common nowadays but I can’t recall even seeing a single one in the early 1960’s. Mind you, up here, we only had mongrels then and their descendants are still around today. I might be wrong but I think Alsatians were fairly rare in those days and such an incident would be remarkable if made up and then proved to be the case.

Tony.

Hi Tony

I don't think they were particularly rare in the south at least - in the mid 60's our neighbour had an alsation and I don't recall it being thought of as esecially unusual even to a babe in arms like me (ahem)

ATB

Viv

Wikiedia say...

Popularity
When the UK Kennel Club first accepted registrations for the breed in 1919, fifty-four dogs were registered, and by 1926 this number had grown to over 8,000.[4] The breed first gained international recognition at the decline of World War I after returning soldiers spoke highly of the breed,

[Tony]

Hi Tony

I don't think they were particularly rare in the south at least - in the mid 60's our neighbour had an alsation and I don't recall it being thought of as esecially unusual even to a babe in arms like me (ahem)

ATB

Viv

Wikiedia say...

Popularity
When the UK Kennel Club first accepted registrations for the breed in 1919, fifty-four dogs were registered, and by 1926 this number had grown to over 8,000.[4] The breed first gained international recognition at the decline of World War I after returning soldiers spoke highly of the breed,

Thanks for that Viv. Point taken.

I can only say that when I was a kid in the late fifties/early sixties I can not recall seeing an Alsatian dog or even a big dog. I don’t think I ever saw a policeman with a dog.
Where I grew up folk would have trouble finding enough money to feed themselves never mind a big dog.

I do remember a story from that time though when you had to buy a dog licence for 7 shillings and sixpence.

A chap went into our local post office and the postmaster was famous for being abrupt; anyway he asks for a dog licence.
The postmaster just says: “Name?”
The bloke says: “Prince”
“Not the dog’s name you fool, your name.”
“My name’s Bill Prince, now can I have a dog licence please”.


Tony.

[Victor]

Hi Vic

Or she was leant on by the police - possible don't you agree? Did she ever get charged with handling goods that Hanratty sold her?

ATB

Viv

Hi Viv,

Yes it's possible that the police leant on her, but that doesn't change the fact that she'd let a murdering rapist sleep in her flat.

KR,
Vic.

[Victor]

any thoughts on why they were re-written Vic? Presumably no nefarious reasons? But if not, why wsren't originals kept for comparisons.

It depends upon what the ESDA results actually say, and what that actually means. Sweeping statements about ESDA proving something was re-written are interpretive and can give an indication of what was written and in what order, they can give no information about why something was re-written. Perhaps the office taking the statement made too many mistakes on a page and decided to re-write it from scratch rather than having a page with lots of scribbling out.

Can't have it both ways. it seems as H is a liar and so everything he says can be doubted (possibly correct presumption, who knows?) but if police withheld evidence / changed it then nothing they say can be trusted either?

Hanratty lied about his original alibi and switched to another during the trial, this is known as an ambush alibi specifically introduced to give the police limited time to investigae and verify it. I've not seen any conclusive proof that the police intentionally withheld evidence, rather than simply had a lot to do in a short period.

Still to be convinced why they actually named Alphon to begin with and yet dropped interest in him so soon after the ID parade (I understand). At best smacks of incredible incompetence so again, can their subsequent work be trusted?

They incautiously and overenthusiastically named the first suspect in a very high-profile case without appropriate reasons for doing so, and when that suspect was discounted because of his failed ID parade they moved on and corrected the mistake as soon as possible.

KR,
Vic.

[jimarilyn]

The reason for my post this morning was an attempt to lighten things up a little. I think things have got a little too serious of late and I am as guilty as the next man. Whatever any of us thinks about this case it was a serious and tragic event: a man was murdered, a woman was raped and shot and possibly a totally innocent man was executed. So terrible; yes. But we are now in 2009 and we can’t change events but at least we can have a laugh at ourselves and each other.

Tony.

Hi Tony,

You are absolutely right Tony. The A6 murder was indeed a serious and tragic event and as you say it was something that happened and can't be undone. The thought has often occurred to me as to why, after nearly half a century the case will just not lie down and die. Most murder cases fade quickly into obscurity. The A6 murder case does not come into this category. It is a unique case.

I read somebody's thought provoking post several months ago to the effect of whether the ghost of James Hanratty was alive and well and in some indefinable way trying to influence thinking and seeking to right a great wrong. I suppose a lot of people might scoff at such an idea but if there is such a thing as an afterlife then this might not be so far fetched after all.

Personally speaking I firmly believe there is an after-life, directed and governed by a much higher and greater power than ourselves, Almighty GOD.

Re-reading James Hanratty's letters from prison to his family one can't help but be impressed by them. They smack of an innocent man, finding himself in what must have been an intolerable situation, awaiting the hangman's noose yet simultaneously clinging on to a hope that that rarest of things, a miracle, might still happen.

He closed his letters by calling on GOD's blessing for his family. His maker must have been very much in his thoughts at this time. He was going to meet Him. The Catholic priests who attended him in his final days were very impressed by Hanratty and all spoke of their strong belief in his innocence. They were in very close proximity to him and must have had just cause for believing this.

Justice and truth are all important.
Maybe that's why this case will not lie down and die.

regards,
James

[Victor]

James, why do you seem to ignore the much more significant injustice done to Michael Gregsten? Doesn't his spirit deserve justice too?

And then there's the massively greater injustice to Valarie Storie.

Maybe Hanratty closed his letters asking for forgiveness from God for his family to shield them from the harm that he personally had done to them.

And the reason people believed his innocence is that Hanratty must have been an accomplished liar.

Maybe Gregsten's ghost knows the truth and directed those 11 people on the jury to make sure that Hanratty didn't get away with murder.

KR,
Vic.