a6 murder

[Limehouse]

Charles Dixie France,the Soho ex night club bouncer, was a man who had collected numerous criminal convictions long before James Hanratty was even born.He was not only a convicted thief but had a number of convictions for both theft and gambling both before and after Hanratty was born. Hanratty was an unemployed teenager and therefore in the "at risk" category.He was taught "the ropes" by Charles France who encouraged him to steal and took his stolen bits and pieces to sell on to people who dabbled in antiques such as William Ewer and Louise Anderson.Its perfectly clear that he was a corrupting influence on the young Hanratty who was technically still a child at the age of 17.

Regarding Fagin the analogy was on the basis that both Fagin and France taught unemployed youngsters "the ropes" ---such as" how to pick a pocket or two" or "how to steal lead from the roof of a house" as was the case with one of France"s numerous convictions.They both,.Fagin and France , expected these youngsters ,once they had been "taught the ropes", to go out and steal for them while they pocketed the profits of selling on the stolen goods----in the case of France to dabblers in antiques and the like.

Hi Norma

There is quite a good reference to 'Dixie' in this article - which I think has been posted before.

Although no evidence as such - it shows that Dixie hung around the fringes of the gangster culture of Soho and was known to some of its darkest characters.

http://www.classiccafes.co.uk/confessional_harmony.htm

Re your points about eye colour - we have a forensic science course at the college where I teach and Jonathan - a Cambridge graduate who teaches on the course - confirms that eye colour is very difficult to determine at night even with the aid of street lamps. He is going to test it out for us with one of his evening classes.

[Natalie Severn]

The misconception of colour in artificial light at night.

Vic,
Have you given some thought to the fact that people are unable to discern the true colour of blue in the headlights of a car at night? It is a scientific fact that nobody can actually see this as a true colour at night in artificial light and that the eyes the colour of hazel-which is a light greenish/ brown and eyes the colour of blue would both appear a bleached greyish colour in the artificial light of a headlight at night ?

[Natalie Severn]

Charles Dixie France,the Soho ex night club bouncer, was a man who had collected numerous criminal convictions long before James Hanratty was even born.He was not only a convicted thief but had a number of convictions for both theft and gambling both before and after Hanratty was born. Hanratty was an unemployed teenager and therefore in the "at risk" category.He was taught "the ropes" by Charles France who encouraged him to steal and took his stolen bits and pieces to sell on to people who dabbled in antiques such as William Ewer and Louise Anderson.Its perfectly clear that he was a corrupting influence on the young Hanratty who was technically still a child at the age of 17.

Regarding Fagin the analogy was on the basis that both Fagin and France taught unemployed youngsters "the ropes" ---such as" how to pick a pocket or two" or "how to steal lead from the roof of a house" as was the case with one of France"s numerous convictions.They both,.Fagin and France , expected these youngsters ,once they had been "taught the ropes", to go out and steal for them while they pocketed the profits of selling on the stolen goods----in the case of France to dabblers in antiques and the like.

[Victor]

France was twenty and had already acquired five criminal convictions-the last for stealing lead from the roof of a block of flats.[...] France [...] collected six further convictions,two for theft and three for "frequenting a common gaming house".France collected three more post war convictions for gambling offences.

Hi Norma,

So France was predominantly a gambler, not a thief.

Hanratty and he met in 1955 when Hanratty was 17.
"I met him when I was a teenager and didnt know the ropes.He was more experienced and took me under his wing.On another occasion Hanratty said "He [France] "learned me"[taught him] on previous occasions when I was younger"
So here we have it---France,like Fagin,groomed young boys to become professional thieves and bought and sold on for profit the "bits and pieces" they stole.

Er...no... You quote 1 person - the lying, convicted rapist and murderer Hanratty, and from that claim France is "like Fagin". That's definitely not proven.

In other words he was corrupting a vulnerable young person ,the unemployed , James Hanratty.Once Hanratty was caught and imprisoned for stealing a car he began his prison training -as a burglar!
Some friend!

I don't follow your logic here either, it's seems a jump from France the gambler, somehow training the little urchin Hanratty, and plundering all his ill-gotten gains - presumably to fund his gambling - then abandoning him once he got caught by the police and sent to prison, although what and how he could have helped I can't work out. And then once in prison Hanratty progressed from car thief to burglar - and that's France's fault?

And then to cap it all off, when Hanratty is released, he hunts France down to renew the friendship - Can I have some more please sir!

KR,
Vic.

[Natalie Severn]

Charles Frederick Franz was twenty six when the 2nd World War ended . James Hanratty was a child of exactly two when the second world war started ---France was twenty and had already acquired five criminal convictions-the last for stealing lead from the roof of a block of flats.
During the war ,while Hanratty was still in infants school,France,who groomed Hanratty when he was a teenager, collected six further convictions,two for theft and three for "frequenting a common gaming house".France collected three more post war convictions for gambling offences. Hanratty and he met in 1955 when Hanratty was 17.
"I met him when I was a teenager and didnt know the ropes.He was more experienced and took me under his wing.On another occasion Hanratty said "He [France] "learned me"[taught him] on previous occasions when I was younger"
So here we have it---France,like Fagin,groomed young boys to become professional thieves and bought and sold on for profit the "bits and pieces" they stole.
In other words he was corrupting a vulnerable young person ,the unemployed , James Hanratty.Once Hanratty was caught and imprisoned for stealing a car he began his prison training -as a burglar!
Some friend!

[Victor]

Vic- you yourself have argued you believe Hanratty stole the gun for the crime from France's airing cupboard! Is this an example of how you think France protected his family from criminal activity?

Hi Julie,

It quite clearly worked because Charlotte France was unaware that there was a gun in her airing cupboard!

What do you thinkl France's family were doing when he was in prison? Do you think they thought he was enjoying the 'bracing air' in Skegness?

How often was France in prison?
Where did they meet?
When and how?

Compared to Hanratty he was a saint - and as Norma points out a successful father of 3.

KR,
Vic.

[Natalie Severn]

re the recognition of colour in artificial light

Point of information here over the question of the colour of the masked gunman"s eyes
Alphon"s eyes were hazel-ie light brown
Hanratty"s eyes were blue

It is a scientific fact that the artificial light of headlights would have reduced eye colour in both cases ie in the case of both Alphon and Hanratty.
I paint all the time and every artist knows that an accurate colour cannot be either discerned or obtained at night time by artificial light unless a simulation bulb is used-ordinary artificial light deaden"s or bleaches colour as it would with both blue and hazel eyes rendering both the same "light grey".

A " daylight simulation bulb" is made of a special blue tinted glass which produces a light quality that is almost identical to natural light.

Therefore, Valerie"s impression of the gunman having had "blue eyes" may not be accurate as both blue and hazel [light brown] would have appeared to have been the same "light" or "pale" deadened colour/shade of " light grey" in the brief glimpse she had had of them.
Norma
ps I have never and would never accuse Valerie of lying nor is it what I think.I believe Valerie suffered a horrific ordeal and was a heroine to have emerged from it with such immense courage and stoicism.Nx

[Limehouse]

Hi Norma and Julie,

What's not obvious? He had previously introduced a man into his family
Please can you explain how you come to that bizarre conclusion? France kept his family as insulated from criminal activity as possible so I would say Hanratty was the first one he brought into the family home and that one turns out to be a murderer and rapist, no wonder France felt so utterly betrayed and duped and worthless.

KR,
Vic.

Oh classic! Vic- you yourself have argued you believe Hanratty stole the gun for the crime from France's airing cupboard! Is this an example of how you think France protected his family from criminal activity?

What do you thinkl France's family were doing when he was in prison? Do you think they thought he was enjoying the 'bracing air' in Skegness?

[Natalie Severn]

What's not obvious? He had previously introduced a man into his family home, and that man had just been convicted of rape and murder. That's quite straightforward and obvious to me. France kept his family very well protected from criminal activity, leading a sort of double-life.

Helped by evidence France supplied about his knowledge of where Hanratty said he hid his rubbish from the burglaries---burglaries France pimped off by using Hanratty"s "non-rubbish" to sell on the antiques shops! Besides-nobody knows who France was "in with" in the criminal underworld---what we know for certain is that he " dealt with " and worked for some of them. He also appears to have done some sort of business with his neighbour in Swiss Cottage, the part time antiques dealer ,William Ewer,-why else did he go into William Ewer"s shop to say how sorry he was about what had happened to his brother-in -law in the Morris Minor?

The point I was making was that at the time Hanratty first met France he was too young to even be legally bought a drink! He was only 17, which, today, is termed a child.France was already a man of the world with 3 children ,the oldest of which was already ten years old.He was therefore by the strict standards of the law corrupting a minor by encouraging Hanratty as a petty crook and follow this up by buying his stolen goods from him.

[Victor]

Nudds evidence is the lynchpin of the Alphon case! His contribution to the Hanratty evidence is corroborated by the Vienna guest book.

Nudds! The man was totally untrustworthy and you very well know it.[Nudds said whatever the police wanted him to say and it suited them].

Hi Norma and Julie,

Yes exactly, he's totally unreliable and therefore anyone who relies on his evidence to implicate Alphon is on very dodgy ground. However, for those who think Hanratty is guilty then we don't have to rely on Nudds evidence at all.

France could have many reasons to commit suicide including the obvious - he let his family and specifically his daughter associate with a murderer and rapist.

I don't think this is "obvious" at all.

What's not obvious? He had previously introduced a man into his family home, and that man had just been convicted of rape and murder. That's quite straightforward and obvious to me. France kept his family very well protected from criminal activity, leading a sort of double-life.

I often wonder if he was a really bad influence on the young and impressionable James Hanratty.

James Hanratty had been a burgular for years too - in and out of prison time and time again.

France was a criminal long before Hanratty met him and Hanratty could not have been the only criminal France introduced to his family.

Please can you explain how you come to that bizarre conclusion? France kept his family as insulated from criminal activity as possible so I would say Hanratty was the first one he brought into the family home and that one turns out to be a murderer and rapist, no wonder France felt so utterly betrayed and duped and worthless.

KR,
Vic.

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Black Rabbit,absolutely true!

[Natalie Severn]

Quite so Norma. France was a criminal long before Hanratty met him and Hanratty could not have been the only criminal France introduced to his family.

Exactly Julie.The thing is though that Hanratty met him when he was a 17 year old.If France, twenty odd years older and wiser,had encouraged him to housebreak by telling him he would act as his fence he would have been acting in a Fagin like role at the very least.Both Nudds and Dixie France were much older men than Hanratty and much more seasoned in the iniquities of Soho.
Norma

[Black Rabbit]

Let's not forget, should any subsequent appeal be successful, James Hanratty becomes a victim of this crime too, as do his immediate family members etc.

[Limehouse]

Hi Vic,
QUOTE]Nudds evidence is the lynchpin of the Alphon case! His contribution to the Hanratty evidence is corroborated by the Vienna guest book.

Nudds! The man was totally untrustworthy and you very well know it.[Nudds said whatever the police wanted him to say and it suited them].



I don't think this is "obvious" at all. France was sacked having been a bouncer at a Soho Night club .He was old enough to be Hanratty"s father [45]-older than his mum was.He had worked amongst seasoned gangsters in Soho for years and years and had known Hanratty when he was just a young teenager---a "child" according to today"s definitions since was was under 18 when they first met.I often wonder if he was a really bad influence on the young and impressionable James Hanratty.[/QUOTE]


Quite so Norma. France was a criminal long before Hanratty met him and Hanratty could not have been the only criminal France introduced to his family.

[Limehouse]

Perhaps if you had quoted and attributed to Vic i would have. However you adopted it, and as his later post makes clear, he used it in a different context, so perhaps you could explain why mistakes in a suspect description and the action to correct them on the part of the Police in an attempt to apprehend a murderer and rapist qualifies as being described as a 'fiasco', as that is the word you chose to use.



As has been pointed out ad nauseum, their witness was fighting for her life in intensive care. The doctors did not expect her to survive. They obtained a description in a hurry. There is no evidence that Ms Storie ever used the phrase 'brown' in her description of her attackers eyes. That the Police confused this in a hurried attempt to get enough information out there to catch the despicable man who had killer Gregsten and raped and crippled Storie is not surprising...in fact i am more surprised there weren't more inconsistencies. DO you get everything right in your job ALL the time? I know i certainly don't but we can all sit in ivory towers and expect everyone else to be perfect.




Ignoring? Huh? You really think Police deliberately ignore witness statements? It was obviously an error on their part which they corrected immediately it was brought to their attention, hence the revised suspect description they issued. Can you give a motive for them ignoring this vital informtion one minute and then suddenly changing their mind and revising it and including it?



People on this thread have. And have accused her of much worse.



You may say so, but it doesnt appear that way to me. Otherwise you would not perpetuate the idea that Hanratty was innocent, which must cause immense distress to the surviving victims and families affected by what he did to them. I know you won't and don't like what I say, but I'm sorry...i am on the side of the victims in this crime....not the perpetrator.

Sigh - you have completely misunderstood the points I was making and the reason I was making them and any further debate with you is pointless.

Whenever those who doubt Hanratty's guilt present their views they are drowned out by those who think they have sole claim on the moral ground concerning this case. Our moral integrity is constantly challenged and we are bombarded with self-righteousness - arrogance and ridicule.

If you think this debate is prolonging the distress for the victims then stop contributing.