a6 murder

[jimornot?]

Hi Reg

Poor Mac.... I bet he misses you too

My interest in this case really started from Reading Paul Foot’s book. For the reasons already expressed on this thread, I couldn’t see how JH was guilty. Then the DNA! Followed by Woffinden’s book read recently plus this thread have ignited my interest in the subject for me again. As if the scales could truly apply to this case, I feel that they tip in favour of Hanratty’s guilt.

But, I do have serious doubts. I think his alibi seems OK (and certainly not bought) – he must have stayed at Ingledene at some time (how else to know about the bath etc) and witnesses place him there and at the shop. I don’t pretend to know about the science re DNA and the samples may have been contaminated but not necessarily so. Is it not stretching the imagination too much to assume

a) contamination took place at all and if so
b) there was no DNA on the sample of the real rapist or the contamination mysteriously covered all his DNA but left traces of that for MG & VS?

But in the interests of balance why was there (apparently) no other DNA on the hanky?

But I know that is best answered in the other thread. To me it (DNA) is a weight on the scales against Hanratty along with the identification and the gun being found with Hanratty's hanky. But then there are arguments brilliantly expounded before regarding the DNA, the first identification parade and potential planting of the gun. I know the arguments have been made on each of these issues already so there is no need to go over them again but the contrasts and conflicts illustrate why this is such a good subject for debate and why your contributions and all the others whether in support of or against your views make it such a great thread

Great stuff.

VS - Truly!!!!

[jimornot?]

observations

Dear all

last one from me for a while I'm afarid I have to get some wirk done having been on this site now for 3 days!

Always accepting that truth may be stranger than fiction, it does seem incredible that Hanratty would leave the gun on the bus. He clearly would not expect to use it again, so why not sink it? Or, maybe Dixie France planted it there – either because he wanted to ensure H would be caught (but why would JH confide in Dixie France and possibly implicate himself anyway?) or because it was part of a wider conspiracy. But as already considered, how certain were conspirators that H would be found guilty (excellent point made already that they had to be confident forensics - eg blood group - wouldn’t eliminate him at the outset)?

Not sure where I am regarding PLA’s possible involvement. If JH not guilty was Alphon really the man? Interesting to know – if we could take JH out of the picture entirely – what, if you were asked to make a case out either as defence or prosecution of PLA – some starters:-

Defence: why wasn’t his DNA found? Would he not simply get rid of the gun in a better way? How could he be certain of fitting Hanratty up?

Prosecution; Behaviour that alerted police interest. The witness statements possibly linking his presence on the day and before? The first identikit that to me looked very much like PLA (indeed the 2nd one also resembles him based on the photo posted before by Jimarilyn)

Then we could extend this to the Ewer conspiracy theory etc. So many ares to exapnd

Keep up the good work

Viv

[jimornot?]

I can't type - I'm afarid and wirk are not right as you may have guessed. But one thing that is right is that my work is never as compelling as this thread

goodnight all

Viv

[Graham]

Calibre of Murder Weapon

There seems to be some confusion recently as the the calibre of the gun found on the 36A bus.

The gun found on the bus was fully loaded with 6 rounds. An Enfield .38 Service Revolver carried 6 rounds; an Enfield .32 carried 7. Ergo: the gun was a .38. According to Woffinden - and I believe him - Keith Simpson, the pathologist, was confused as to how many shots were fired at Gregsten and Storie prior to the 'clicking' that Storie heard which was apparently the re-loading of the gun. The gunman fired two rounds at Gregsten, and Storie said she thought five rounds were fired at her. Unless the gunman re-loaded between killing Gregsten and firing at Storie, that is not possible. I cannot think that, under the circumstances, Storie counted the number of shots fired at her.

The gun was a .38. Not that it really matters, of course, but it's small yet important point.

With regard to how the gun on the bus was identified as the murder-weapon, basic firearms forensics would detail the imprint of the firing-pin upon the cartridge rim, and the marks left upon each bullet of the rifling in the barrel.

The gun would have been fired on the police test-range to establish the above points.

Cheers,

Graham

[Sara]

Hello and welcome, rob63

I believe two spent cartidges were found in the footwell of the car, referenced somewhere in this incredibly long thread!

More to the point are the two *spent* cartridges found in the Vienna hotel two weeks *after* the murder, whereas Hanratty (signed in as Ryan) had stayed there the night *before* the murder - but not after

If this doesn't make you smell a rat or three.......

[Sara]

Rob63, my understanding is that the last remaining fragment of VS's panties worn on the night was destroyed in the final 2002 DNA tests - see my post in the last 24hrs on the subject on the DNA thread

I assure you btw that it's well worth reading through the whole thread form the beginning since imo you will get more from this, than from reading all the books on the subject - something you can do later for interest. All the salient points, with links for further online info (esp for DNA arcana) are to be found within the thread

[blue moon]

hello everyone,
i personally know carol france at this time her surname has changed i also know very well william nutzlader and know that he has never been in prison for fraud, with comment on the mention of the son richard i also believe deeply that he is the son of james hanratty i no this because i am a relative of carol france. The comparison between both richard and hanratty is uncanny indeed i can even supply a picture, thank you for your time in reading my post..Blue moon.

[Tony]

Dear all

Having spent the best part of 3 days looking at this wonderful thread, I want to comment on the contributions and posters.

All are impressive in the passion, intelligence, reasoning and verbal command shown. It matters not what side of the argument one is if the posts are stimulating. I also like the irreverence of some of the more humorous ones (Tony!)

It is interesting to see how heated some posts become and I suspect in many cases it is a bit of bluster and getting retaliation in first. Lately I have seen some remarks aimed at the contributions of Caz which was surprising as I have found her posts interesting and to me, very well written.

The enthusiasm shown does all of you credit – well done. The research is immense – love the interactions between Reg / Jimarilyn ? JamesDean and Victor / Graham (where’s Johnl gone?) . Sorry not to write about everyone because ALL of you play a huge part in making this thread as captivating as the subject matter

Larue has been quiet for a while and did anyone find out where Steve went? I assume many of you tried personal messages to him?
Thanks all of you.

VS (proper initials!)

PS come back Caz

Welcome to the thread VS,

Well I certainly never anticipated starting a post off in that manner. Whenever we get a new contributor with a pseudonym I always immediately go to the signature before reading the content; I don’t know why it’s just what I do. It possibly has something to do with Puppykins who later became Alan. Where is he by the way?
Anyway can you imagine a contribution from Jimornot and the author is VS? Well it was smelling salts, a stiff drink and straight to bed. I dread to think what happened to Jimarilyn who is James from Liverpool when he read it. Are you OK James?
So I have had to read your post this morning and I see you, despite your title, are slightly on the side of Jim did it. Well you are in the majority there but if you read Sara you will see she came on here as a 100% Jim did it but now appears to have changed her mind.

As I say a warm welcome and from my point of view everyone on here is of sound stock and you will always get an answer to anything you might ask or any points you put forward. I know that on occasions some of the contributors have got a bit excitable and indeed have gone over the top. They know who I mean but they also know that I think they are OK really. It’s mainly our own Superhero Reg and then only after he’s seen Arsenal loose and been out for a few drinks with his brother Ron. Only kidding Reg; you may not be Superman but you are a star when it comes to information on here. You haven't really got a brother called Ron have you?

Anyway, VS, it is up to us to police this forum and a good telling off from Limehouse usually calms everyone down. So enjoy yourself on here; it’s brilliant.

Tony.

[caz]

It is interesting to see how heated some posts become and I suspect in many cases it is a bit of bluster and getting retaliation in first. Lately I have seen some remarks aimed at the contributions of Caz which was surprising as I have found her posts interesting and to me, very well written...

...PS come back Caz

Hi VS,

You are too kind. Welcome to our humble abode.

I'm afraid I have a bit of catching up to do on this thread. I just caught your posts but haven't read any others since my last visit (about two weeks ago?).

I will catch up eventually and add any new observations I have, but it will almost certainly not be before the New Year.

Have a very merry Christmas everyone and don't get your crackers in a twist.

Lots of love to all,

Caz
XXX

[jimarilyn]

hello everyone,
i personally know carol france at this time her surname has changed i also know very well william nutzlader and know that he has never been in prison for fraud, with comment on the mention of the son richard i also believe deeply that he is the son of james hanratty i no this because i am a relative of carol france. The comparison between both richard and hanratty is uncanny indeed i can even supply a picture, thank you for your time in reading my post..Blue moon.

Hi blue moon,

Hanratty claimed to have been intimate with Carole France on the evening in mid-September 1961 after they had been to Battersea fun-fair and then to a pub.
If he had impregnated her on that occasion her son, Richard Nutzlader-Sanderson, would have been born around mid-June 1962. Carole, however, gave birth to Richard either in late December 1962 (at the earliest) or sometime between January 1963 and March 1963 ( his birth was registered in the first quarter of 1963) so this would definitely rule out James Hanratty as being his father.

regards,
James


PS. I haven't posted on here for a few days and would like to offer a warm welcome to our three new posters, Rob63, Jimornot and blue moon.

[Rob63]

Sara, thanks for the info, I am hoping to trawl through the dna thread at some point but reading this thread has worn me out for now. Trying to take in all the info is overwhelming at times.

Blue Moon, your post is a bit of an eye opener. I believe it was always thought an impossibility that the lad was the offspring of JH because of the time difference between the assignation between JH and CF, and the date of birth of the child...maybe you know better?

Graham:, thanks for the ballistics info, thats just what I was looking for.

[caz]

...but haven't read any others since my last visit (about two weeks ago?).

Oh sorry, it's a bit longer than that. I just checked and I have only read the posts up to late November.

Love,

Caz
X

[jimarilyn]

Welcome to the thread VS,

Well I certainly never anticipated starting a post off in that manner. Whenever we get a new contributor with a pseudonym I always immediately go to the signature before reading the content; I don’t know why it’s just what I do. It possibly has something to do with Puppykins who later became Alan. Where is he by the way?
Anyway can you imagine a contribution from Jimornot and the author is VS? Well it was smelling salts, a stiff drink and straight to bed. I dread to think what happened to Jimarilyn who is James from Liverpool when he read it. Are you OK James?

Hi Tony,

Just recovered. Coincidentally I watched an old Clark Gable film ( "Wife vs Secretary" with the beautiful Jean Harlow ) on TCM the other night (I'm a sucker for old movies) and his character's name was Van Stanhope and he was referred to as VS throughout the movie. Very Strange.

I hope everyone on this fascinating thread has a very happy Christmas and healthy New Year.

regards,
James

[blue moon]

thank you for your reply, but i would like to correct you in saying that richard was born in march 1962 and the possibility of them having sexual intercourse before the time stated by you at the fun fair is high indeed. carol france was also a trainee hairdresser at the time and was the one who dyed hanratty's hair, thanks for the reply however and i would like to hear from you soon.

[jimarilyn]

Hi All,

With the very welcome addition of Rob63, jimornot? and blue moon there are now 48 posters to this thread.
It's been some time since the likes Steve, PLA, Larue, JamesDean and Rigby have posted, I hope we haven't heard the last from them as their contributions have all been very impressive.
A few months ago I came across an article on the internet about Martin O'Neill (the Aston Villa manager) which stated that he has a very keen interest in the JFK assassination and ....wait for it......the A6 Murder.
I wonder if he's aware of this thread and if so I wonder what the chances are of his becoming a contributor in the future.
Wishful thinking ??


regards,
James