a6 murder

[jimarilyn]

Hi Steve,

The landlady of the Old Station Inn, Mary Lanz, testified that she had seen Peter Alphon in her pub on quite a few occasions. A few years later she said she had seen Alphon in the pub at the same time that Michael and Valerie were there on the evening of the 22nd August. She never mentioned this to the police in her original statement which is rather strange if true. Was she ( or is she ) a reliable witness ? Did her pub regulars consider her an honest and trustworthy person, if so then she would seemingly have no axe to grind with Peter Alphon. Alphon has stated (rightly or wrongly) that he was at the not so far away Slough Greyhound Stadium that fateful evening and it is known that he liked a pint or two, so it seems very feasible that he could have been in her pub when Michael and Valerie were there.

[jimarilyn]

Hi jimarilyn



At the point that Hanratty climbed into the Morris Minor he was neither a murderer or a rapist. He was probably planning nothing more than a stick-up robbery, to take money, the car and whatever else he could steal from the couple

Kind regards,
Steve

Hi Steve

If it was Hanratty why would he venture into unknown territory so far from home turf to stick up the occupants of a five or six year old Morris Minor ? He could ony hope to get very slim pickings. I'm sure if he was so inclined there would be much greater opportunity for a stick-up in London. No, the killer of Michael Gregsten and rapist of Valerie Storie was playing some sort of deadly game with his two victims. Hanratty wouldn't have had the nerve and intelligence to hold them captive for 5 or 6 hours. I believe that the murderer deliberatey chose Deadman's Hill to do his evil work on two unsuspecting victims. He was probably some kind of sick neo-Nazi.

[Steve]

Hi Steve,

The landlady of the Old Station Inn, Mary Lanz, testified that she had seen Peter Alphon in her pub on quite a few occasions. A few years later she said she had seen Alphon in the pub at the same time that Michael and Valerie were there on the evening of the 22nd August. She never mentioned this to the police in her original statement which is rather strange if true. Was she ( or is she ) a reliable witness ? Did her pub regulars consider her an honest and trustworthy person, if so then she would seemingly have no axe to grind with Peter Alphon. Alphon has stated (rightly or wrongly) that he was at the not so far away Slough Greyhound Stadium that fateful evening and it is known that he liked a pint or two, so it seems very feasible that he could have been in her pub when Michael and Valerie were there.

Morning jimarilyn

One has to say that Mary Lanz was not a reliable witness. Her husband was the licensee at the Old Station Inn and she was working behind the bar on the evening of 22nd August. Her first statement was to the police two days later when she confirmed that Gregsten and Storie had been in the bar that evening and also that two strange men, not regular drinkers at the pub, left at around the same time that Gregsten and Storie left. Her description of these men at that time would not have fitted either Alphon or Hanratty.

It was only later that Mary Lanz began speaking of Alphon having been in the bar on the 22nd August and being accompanied by a woman with blonde hair, and by then Jean Justice had paid a visit to the pub taking Alphon with him.

Her testimony does seem to have changed as time went by. One could be cynical and think perhaps the publicity was good for business.

Kind regards,
Steve

[Steve]

If it was Hanratty why would he venture into unknown territory so far from home turf to stick up the occupants of a five or six year old Morris Minor ? He could ony hope to get very slim pickings. I'm sure if he was so inclined there would be much greater opportunity for a stick-up in London. No, the killer of Michael Gregsten and rapist of Valerie Storie was playing some sort of deadly game with his two victims. Hanratty wouldn't have had the nerve and intelligence to hold them captive for 5 or 6 hours. I believe that the murderer deliberatey chose Deadman's Hill to do his evil work on two unsuspecting victims. He was probably some kind of sick neo-Nazi.

Hi jimarilyn

Yes, it is true that Hanratty operated mainly in London and that better opportunities would have been available to him in London. However, we don’t know to what extent he operated outside London. The 22nd August could have been his first visit to Slough, or it could have been his seventh, we just don’t know.

As for Hanratty not having the nerve and intelligence to hold the couple captive for several hours it would seem certain that he did, because the simple fact is that he was guilty of Gregsten’s murder.

Kind regards,
Steve

[Graham]

Hi all.

1] Mary Lanz: I'd say that she'd fallen for the not-inconsiderable charms of Jean Justice when she made her statement about the 2 men and the blonde woman with the Alphon lookalike at the Station Inn. Alphon went for the latter like a clam and (rather predictably) came out with a load of nonsense that the blonde woman was Janet Gregsten in a wig pointing out Gregsten and Storie to him. He even added some real theatrical stuff about her squeezing his arm and saying, "Do it!" or words to that effect. Justice lapped this kind of stuff up. Also, earlier in 1961, the Old Station Inn had been used as a setting for a Miss Marple film, and maybe this gave Mrs Lanz a taste for the limelight. Incidentally, there was/is a haulage business called Lanz & Co Ltd (or something like that) based in Taplow.

2] One aspect of the Case that's always puzzled me are the reports by (supposedly) reliable witnesses in Dorney that they'd seen, on more than one occasion, a man who resembled Peter Alphon. He'd been walking down Court Lane. One of the witnesses said that the man 'looked like the TV actor Sydney Tafler', and if anyone's old enough to remember Tafler, without any doubt at all he and Alphon were dead ringers. One of the Dorney witnesses, Michael Fogerty-Waul, was part of the A6 Committee at one point.

3] Only the month before the murder JH and a pal nicked a car in London and drove to Birmingham and sold the spare tyre for petrol money. JH came close to being arrested - his friend was. He then hitched a lift to Cardiff, then to Liverpool where he burgled a large house, taking silver items and money-boxes. He sold the silver to a jeweller's in Liverpool and had to sign the book - whether this was ever followed up by the police or his defence, I don't know. It's probably irrelevant anyway. He later went to Rhyl and met Terry Evans. This episode does tend to demonstrate that JH was perfectly willing to operate anywhere at all, not just London. I also feel that one reason why he went to the Slough area was that he was concerned that he'd left his prints in a house in Stanmore, and perhaps he felt that a change of locale was wise.

Cheers,

Graham

[Steve]

Hi Graham

There is also Lanz Farms in nearby Colnbrook.

Yes, the ‘Sydney Tafler lookalike’ episode is most intriguing. I don’t quite know what to make of Fogarty-Waul. Sometimes he appeared sensible and at others he appeared to be something of a crank. I suppose I lean towards the latter view mainly because of the occasion in 1969 when he drove to Brighton to identify Alphon, and did so from a photograph of ‘a man with a deformed nose.’ Fogarty-Waul lived in a caravan at Pecks Farm and spent a lot of his time in the Dorney Reach area.

The statement that he gave to the police in September 1961 suggested that he had given a lift to a couple a few days before the murder, the girl wore glasses and resembled Miss Storie and the man resembled one of the Identikit pictures. Very strange!

You make a very good point to illustrate that working outside of London was not completely unknown for Hanratty.

Kind regards,
Steve

[Graham]

Hi Steve,

I have the impression that ole Fogarty-Waul was a bloke with a lot of time on his hands and jumped at the chance to join the A6 Committee - probably another one who succumbed to Jean Justice's charms.

But having said that, it certainly does seem odd, the number of local Dorney residents who claimed to have 'seen someone' in the vicinity. Or is it just a duplication of Rhyl?

Do you have any further news re: Alphon these days, Steve?

Cheers,

Graham

[Steve]

Evening Graham

I think you are right about F-W; lots of spare time and jumped at the opportunity to be someone ‘important.’

You have J-J summed up too; from what the footage I have seen of him he is an absolute charmer. We all come across them in life, especially if you sell for a living, and they are usually the competitor, charm the birds out of the trees, and convince your customer to buy from them when you know full well that your own products are far superior!

The Dorney residents who came forward are on a different scale to Rhyl, much smaller, and in those days it was an even smaller community than today. New houses have been built in Marsh Lane, security gates, his and hers Mercedes-Benz and BMW – I exaggerate, there is one near the top of the lane with a distinct air of affluence, but the general feel is one of a rural outpost of Maidenhead and Slough which I am sure was the case in 1961. People living in a backwater given an opportunity, like Fogarty-Waul, to feel important for once in their lives?

Perhaps I’m just an old cynic!

Kind regards,
Steve

[Steve]

I forgot to mention, J-J is in a very real sense responsible for this thread's existance. He was able to convince so many people that there had been a miscarriage of justice, that Hanratty was innocent and someone probably Alphon guilty, that articles and books started to be written on the subject. Paul Foot, later Bob Woffinden. The truth all along, even before DNA, is that there was a very substantial case to prove that Hanratty was guilty.

[Graham]

Hi Steve,

I don't know if anyone's actually written a biography of JJ, but I think he'd be worth the effort. Eccentric and charmer though he may have been, I get the impression that he was really quite a hard character - someone who was well aware of his own worth and who made the most of his Society contacts for his own ends. Foot in particular portrayed him as a man who was very much concerned with social issues and he may well have been on a superficial level, but I agree with Leonard Miller that his espousing of JH's cause points to his need (for whatever reason) to have a pop at the Establishment, especially the legal establishment. He seems to me to be a bloke with a large chip on his shoulder.

I'm always interested in anyone born into wealth who ended up skint! JJ is just such a man. He went from having the lot to living in a council flat - I'd say this suggests that he had a pretty large self-destructive streak in him. Also, I can't be convinced that he truly 'fancied' Alphon - I get the feeling that for whatever reason he allowed himself to be strung along by Alphon who, as I think we are agreed, was the arch-chancer and manipulator, and was in it only for the £££'s. I rather think that Alphon had the measure of JJ, who was trying to 'use' Alphon for his own nefarious ends, and ultimately came unstuck and out-manipulated. Unfortunately, there seems to be precious little information about JJ other than that which Foot and Woffinden published and, of course, his own books on the A6 Case.

But for all that, to give him his due, he tried hard as far as JH was concerned. Yet at the same time, I'm convinced that he had some kind of hidden agenda. Precisely what that was is perhaps open to further, much deeper, investigation.

Cheers,

Graham

[Steve]

Hi Graham

I don't think a written biography of J-J exists but I absolutely agree it would be an interesting read.

I have always had the feeling that the true relationship between him and Alphon has been danced around, that there is much more to tell.

KR
Steve

[larue]

Hi

This certainly remains a very fascinating and intriguing case. So much just doesn't add up. Armchair detectives that we all are, we are only as good as the information, testimony and evidence that is presented to us. We may well interpret that information slightly differently ( according to our own personal persuasions ) to one another but I think at the end of the day (midnight perhaps) we're all after the same thing, namely the whole (and very elusive) truth of what happened the night of August 22nd/23rd 1961.

Personally speaking, I believe in James Hanratty's innocence for many and varied reasons, not least of which are his letters from prison to various family members. What does any of us know about DNA profiling, it's a very specialised field and a law unto itself. How can a lay person challenge any DNA findings without acquiring the necessary knowledge and wherewithal to do so. We find ourselves in a position (due to our complete lack of knowledge and understanding on the subject) where (unless we bow down to our so called superiors) we are considered loopy and ridiculous if we dare challenge any establishment findings.

best wishes

brilliant!!! absolutely brilliant jimarilyn. in two succinct paragraphs you have summed up my feelings on the case precicely, with only one exeption, in that i do not totally believe in hanratty's innocence. but nor do i totally believe in his guilt.

the case may officialy be closed, but my mind will remain open, leastways till all those nagging questions are answered.

atb

larue

[larue]

almost forgot...

to those people who expressed thanks at my reposting of the 'old' posts, i can only say you are all very welcome. 'twas a labor of love.

atb

larue

[Steve]

Hi Larue

Labour of love or not, it was a huge effort and much appreciated by all on this thread!

KR
Steve

[jimarilyn]

Hi jimarilyn



As for Hanratty not having the nerve and intelligence to hold the couple captive for several hours it would seem certain that he did, because the simple fact is that he was guilty of Gregsten’s murder.

Hi Steve,

If this were so why are so many people not convinced of his guilt ? For all anyone knows there may have been 2 abductors. Only Valerie Storie (and GOD) would know the answer to that. Just speculating of course. If this scenario was true (highly unlikely as that may well be) Valerie might have had very just cause for not saying anything. One thing is for sure however and that is Valerie hasn't revealed everything that happened in that long five and a half hour abduction.

She emphasised a few weeks later to Acott that her memory of the man's face was fading fast. A full month after the murder Valerie made a false identification of Michael Clark as the culprit ,(Alphon bore a resemblance to this man she later admitted) and a full 7 and a half weeks after the murder she identified James Hanratty as the culprit. At this latter identity parade Hanratty's vividly orange hair colour was completely different to his hair colour of the 23rd August. Anthony Luxemburg who was one of the participants of that parade said that Hanratty's hair stuck out like a sore thumb. Even so it took Valerie about 20 minutes to decide that it was Hanratty. At exactly the same time, the fingerprint bureau at Scotland Yard revealed that no fingerprints of Hanratty's were found anywhere on the inside or outside of the car. Very strange indeed. I almost forgot, Hanratty never brushed his hair back (unlike Valerie's identikit photo). I can think of one person who wore his hair exactly that way though.