a6 murder

[julie q]

Hi Julie,

yes, the story of the Deadman's Hill couple was put around some years ago, but I can only say that if this couple felt so strongly about what they claim to have seen, then why didn't they identify themselves to a JH supporter such as Woffinden? Also, the census was at the southern end of the lay-by, and I would honestly doubt if the census-takers were able to note the numbers of passing cars at night. I'm sure the census was merely to count the traffic. Finally, I wonder how many Morris Minors drove up and down Deadmans Hill during an average night in the early 1960's?

Regards,

Graham

hi
Perhaps I can be of some help of here ,The couple approached the police in the aftermath of the murder and gave a statement. It was found by Bob Woffinden when he gained access to the Bedfordshire police files on the case ,he traced and interveiwed them and they reiterated the statement they gave in 1961. They had been out for a meal that evening and had left the restaurant when it closed , their journey home had taken past Deadmans Hill at around midnight,this was still some time before the murder car had arrived there, for this reason it was concluded that their evidence was irrelevant.
REGARDS julie q

[Natalie Severn]

Don't the statements from the Rhyl witnesses (though not available at the trial) surely cast a shadow of doubt over the 'guilt' of Hanratty?

They can't all be mistaken or lying

Well said Black Rabbit.All eleven can"t surely , not ALL eleven of them ,have been lying or mistaken !

[Natalie Severn]

Yes,William Usher was the left luggage assistant at Lime Street station, and the man with the "withered hand"---in fact his hand was missing two fingers and the bones had probably drawn together as they healed ,giving it a "withered" appearance.The prosecution did not even take a statement from him until 19th January and when they had they did not disclose it.It seems they considered him "too ready to assist".

Just to add that there is no statement anywhere that suggests that Sherrard was unhappy with Mrs Jones .
The owner of the print shop three doors away from Ingledene knew Mrs Jones for many years and speaks very highly of her guest house."It was always scrupulously clean,everything was always spotless and in its place",she was a very good neighbour and very nice woman" she said.People who knew her appear to have been very surprised indeed at the way she was treated by the prosecution and especially about the inference that the house was in a shambles.

[Natalie Severn]

Sherrard initially said this, or words along these lines, reference one of the men from Lime Street Station left-luggage who, he felt, fancied a bit of "lime" light of his own - maybe his 15 Minutes of Fame. I also think - and stand to be corrected - that he said much the same about Mrs Grace Jones. And I am sure he regretted calling her as a witness...

Graham

Yes,William Usher was the left luggage assistant at Lime Street station, and the man with the "withered hand"---in fact his hand was missing two fingers and the bones had probably drawn together as they healed ,giving it a "withered" appearance.The prosecution did not even take a statement from him until 19th January and when they had they did not disclose it.It seems they considered him "too ready to assist".

[Graham]

Sherrard said on at least one occasion that he was concerned about some people wanting to "get in on the act", and I think this also applies to at least some of the Rhyl "Witnesses".

Sherrard initially said this, or words along these lines, reference one of the men from Lime Street Station left-luggage who, he felt, fancied a bit of "lime" light of his own - maybe his 15 Minutes of Fame. I also think - and stand to be corrected - that he said much the same about Mrs Grace Jones. And I am sure he regretted calling her as a witness...

Graham

[Graham]

Found this recently:

Haven't heard of these witnesses before.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/hanratty-witnesses-go-public-1279254.html

I wonder if this couple's car was clocked by the census further down the road?

Hi Julie,

yes, the story of the Deadman's Hill couple was put around some years ago, but I can only say that if this couple felt so strongly about what they claim to have seen, then why didn't they identify themselves to a JH supporter such as Woffinden? Also, the census was at the southern end of the lay-by, and I would honestly doubt if the census-takers were able to note the numbers of passing cars at night. I'm sure the census was merely to count the traffic. Finally, I wonder how many Morris Minors drove up and down Deadmans Hill during an average night in the early 1960's?

Regards,

Graham

[Natalie Severn]

Found this recently:

Haven't heard of these witnesses before.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/hanratty-witnesses-go-public-1279254.html

I wonder if this couple's car was clocked by the census further down the road?

This is a very impressive discovery Julie.That they were never followed up is really strange.It may ofcourse also be because the crime covered an area where there were three police forces in operation,Scotland Yard taking over ultimately.I often wonder if this was why John Kerr"s notes disappeared ---more due the unmanageability of three police forces liaising than anything else.

[Natalie Severn]

Hi BR,

also one of the Rhyl "Witnesses", the newspaper seller Charley Jones, admitted to Nimmo that he'd been effectively bullied by Terry Evans into making a supportive statement.

Sherrard said on at least one occasion that he was concerned about some people wanting to "get in on the act", and I think this also applies to at least some of the Rhyl "Witnesses".

Hanratty, in my opinion, would've been better off sticking to his original Liverpool Alibi and effectively challenging the prosecution to disprove it. It seems much more credible than a vague story about green baths and middle-aged landladies...

Graham

There were eleven witnesses in all.The son of Trevor Dutton who was a highly respected business man in Denbighshire,as is his son today,remained convinced that James Hanratty was the young man who stepped out of a doorway in Rhyl High Street and asked him if he would like to buy a gold watch.The area the young man chose [between Burton"s and what used to be the old post office]is an area of Rhyl where a few market stalls are set up during the week so it wasn"t entirely inappropriate---although apparently Mr Dutton seems to have thought it unusual.
Mrs Margaret Walker,like Mr Dutton,only became aware of the significance of her own encounter, when she heard about the Bedforshire solicitor looking for witnesses and learnt that Mrs Jones was going to Bedford.This was when the trial had only a few days left to run.Neither Mr Dutton or Mrs Walker were called by the defence,mainly because Sherrard was preparing his final pleading, and prioritised this.
It was only six years later that Mrs Walker came forward again at a meeting called by Lord Longford in Rhyl.
Mrs Walker was ,at that time, one of four women,all close neighbours running B&B"s at the time who had come forward to say they recognised Hanratty as the same man who had called at each of their houses on August 22nd 1961.Mrs Walker had not wanted to get involved in the case at all but eventually felt troubled not to.Brenda Harris,the daughter of Mrs Jones was another witness who was not called.
Both Mrs Walker,Mr Dutton and Christopher Larman all spoke of the artificial or streaky look the young man"s hair had.
Some of their statements,during appeal and investigation, form part of the "non-disclosure" of statements---of which their were very many.

[Limehouse]

Found this recently:

Haven't heard of these witnesses before.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/hanratty-witnesses-go-public-1279254.html

I wonder if this couple's car was clocked by the census further down the road?

[Natalie Severn]

Graham,

Michael Sherrard did indeed say this,but he was referring to the evidence given by Valerie Storie ---which he clearly found to be less than satisfactory especially since a man"s life depended on it----indeed Hanratty was executed more because of Valerie"s identification than anything else! And even though she had first stated that Michael Clark was her rapist and Gregsten"s killer.We now know that Michael Clark had brown hair and was heavily built---whereas James Hanratty was very slim,
[/B]

In the words of Michael Sherrard... "The witness[-referring to Valerie Storie"s statement] may be perfectly honest, absolutely convinced that he or she has identified the right man or woman and you're not going to be able to cross-examine them to show that they're lying 'cos they're not lying, they're telling the truth as they see it."

[Graham]

Hi BR,

also one of the Rhyl "Witnesses", the newspaper seller Charley Jones, admitted to Nimmo that he'd been effectively bullied by Terry Evans into making a supportive statement.

Sherrard said on at least one occasion that he was concerned about some people wanting to "get in on the act", and I think this also applies to at least some of the Rhyl "Witnesses".

Hanratty, in my opinion, would've been better off sticking to his original Liverpool Alibi and effectively challenging the prosecution to disprove it. It seems much more credible than a vague story about green baths and middle-aged landladies...

Graham

[Victor]

Don't the statements from the Rhyl witnesses (though not available at the trial) surely cast a shadow of doubt over the 'guilt' of Hanratty?

They can't all be mistaken or lying

Hi BR,

Some of the statments were available to the defence before the end of the trial, and most well before the appeal, they sound fairly honest and genuine, although Michael Sherrard said something along the lines of them not tallying with what Hanratty said about his alleged trip to Rhyl - the details he gives about the Ingledene are vague and general with the exception of the green bath in the attic - although I believe Hanratty said "top of the house" which is less specific and would open it up to more premises.

However, we have the DNA confirmation so that makes it very likely that there was a dark haired young man wandering around Rhyl looking for lodgings that evening, which in the height of the summer season wouldn't be that uncommon. It just wasn't James Hanratty.

In the words of Michael Sherrard... "The witness may be perfectly honest, absolutely convinced that he or she has identified the right man or woman and you're not going to be able to cross-examine them to show that they're lying 'cos they're not lying, they're telling the truth as they see it."

KR,
Vic.

[Black Rabbit]

Don't the statements from the Rhyl witnesses (though not available at the trial) surely cast a shadow of doubt over the 'guilt' of Hanratty?

They can't all be mistaken or lying

[Limehouse]

Hi
I have not posted for some time,I came across the forum several months ago ,and having had an interest in the case for over 40 years saw it as an opportunity to share my knowledge and in return gain the knowledge and opinion of fellow posters. I feel recently it however it has degenerated in to a point scoring, name calling exercise.
I can understand that a case as controversial as this can provoke argument, refutation and at times dissension,people can resent their well embedded beliefs and received opinions being challenged .
People are perfectly entitled to place their own interpetation on known facts of the case , and hold opinions and theories on the many factors that are still unknown, but it should be possible to present them in a manner that does not cast aspersions on the itegrity of those who hold an opposite veiw.
There have been a number of aspects recently I would like to have commented on but refrained from doing so , hopefully we can now return to a reasonable and respectful debate
REGARDS JULIE Q

Emotions have certainly run high - as you say - it is case that evokes strong emotions from both camps. Your contributions have been excellent vJulie - and I look forward to more of them.

[julie q]

Hi
I have not posted for some time,I came across the forum several months ago ,and having had an interest in the case for over 40 years saw it as an opportunity to share my knowledge and in return gain the knowledge and opinion of fellow posters. I feel recently it however it has degenerated in to a point scoring, name calling exercise.
I can understand that a case as controversial as this can provoke argument, refutation and at times dissension,people can resent their well embedded beliefs and received opinions being challenged .
People are perfectly entitled to place their own interpetation on known facts of the case , and hold opinions and theories on the many factors that are still unknown, but it should be possible to present them in a manner that does not cast aspersions on the itegrity of those who hold an opposite veiw.
There have been a number of aspects recently I would like to have commented on but refrained from doing so , hopefully we can now return to a reasonable and respectful debate
REGARDS JULIE Q