a6 murder

[Graham]

Let's not conveniently ignore the fact that Charlotte France, when she was watching TV with Dixie and JH, said how much one of the photofits resembled Hanratty, when they were shown. Sometimes this seems to be rather pushed to one side....

And until someone can produce a photo of Michael Clark, I don't see why we continue to be concerned about VS's picking him out on the ID parade. She made a mistake, that's all. An ID parade is merely part of the police's investigative procedure, not the final proof of a person's guilt or innocence.
And VS never stated that Clark was her attacker - she just implied that in her judgment he resembled her attacker, and it was the job of the police to confirm or deny that he could have been involved.

Graham

[Derrick]

...we have Dr Rennie's comment that he looked quite similar to Alphon...

Hi Victor

And as Alphon looks nothing like Hanratty, therefore as I said, Michael Clark bore no resemblance to Hanratty whatsoever

Cheers
Derrick

[Victor]

I spent many a dreary, damp holiday with my parents in the Rhyl/Colwyn Bay/Llandudno area during the 50's and early 60's, latterly at a time of my life when the hormones were beginning to stir....and I can assure you that the amusement arcades and the caffs were full of single young men, not all of whom were locals to judge by their accents.

Hi Graham,

For me it was the 70s and into the 80s, but I agree with what you say.

Could be that the young man the Rhyl "witnesses" claim to have seen was in fact a father who'd left his family at the station while he went in search of accommodation - speculative, but no more speculative than other stull I've read about Rhyl.

At the station, or in the car, or on the beach or in a cafe or a multitude of other places - with their luggage. Hanratty never said he left his luggage at Ingledene or anywhere else and continued to search for somewhere to stay, that's Foot speculating.

KR,
Vic.

[Victor]

"The jury must bear in mind that a good many people who have seen nothing, when they are told something, they see a lot. There is a good deal of that in all this evidence"

Hey Graham,

Now why does that sound familiar...?

Mrs Betty Davies,33 of 19 South Kinmel Street,Rhyl.May 26 1968.
[...]
A uniformed policeman also called and showed me a sketch of a man and asked if I recognised it.I said I didn"t.

KR,
Vic.

[Graham]

I spent many a dreary, damp holiday with my parents in the Rhyl/Colwyn Bay/Llandudno area during the 50's and early 60's, latterly at a time of my life when the hormones were beginning to stir....and I can assure you that the amusement arcades and the caffs were full of single young men, not all of whom were locals to judge by their accents. One particularly awful holiday in Colwyn Bay we stayed at a small hotel and a Scots family latched onto us - nice people, but totally unintelligible to us Brummies. It wasn't just Scousers who holidayed in North Wales.

Could be that the young man the Rhyl "witnesses" claim to have seen was in fact a father who'd left his family at the station while he went in search of accommodation - speculative, but no more speculative than other stull I've read about Rhyl.

I still reckon that JH should've stuck to his original Liverpool alibi, and in fact the more I think about it the more surprised I am that Sherrard permitted him to go ahead with the Rhyl ambush-alibi (although there was in reality little Sherrard could do, other than make JH sign a waver that his new alibi was his full responsibility and his alone). JH had past 'history' at Liverpool, could name at least one man who knew him, and as the judge said he didn't have to prove his alibi - it was up to the jury to accept or reject it. They obviously found the Rhyl alibi impossible to accept. (Yes, I know that JH also knew some in Rhyl - Terry Evans - but no surprise that he claimed he couldn't find him).

Graham

[Victor]

The whole point about Hanratty is that most of "the evidence" if it deserves the name, appears to have been a set of "manufactured and astonishing coincidences" from the moment Janet Gregsten /William Ewer "saw him at the cleaners"

Hi Norma,

You're still being taken to the cleaners by the journalist's sensationalism. There is no evidence that it happened and it has been denied by the alleged participants.

which was only the first of a whole series of "astonishing coincidences" that are supposed to have happened; like Alphon being arrested in his Finsbury Park Hotel after police asked for information on anybody " acting strangely"

He was one of many - why aren't the others repeatedly mentioned too?

and being interrogated for the A6 murder

Why else bother asking for people acting strangely if they aren't going to be asked about it?

[ later confessing to it]

Alphon did confess - but again he wasn't the only one. And of course we all know about John Humble!

to when Valerie Storie "identified" heavily built Michael Clark

Was he heavily built? If he looked like Alphon he wasn't!

Acott then leapfrogging back to the Vienna Hotel to Mr Nudds [alias Uncle Tom Cobley}

Are you suggesting Acott shouldn't investigate his only concrete lead?

so erm -Acott decided it must have been Hanratty then

He was the only white man to have stayed in that room for weeks.

cos Nudds "told them so"

erm - you've just said yourself that Nudds had already been sacked, don't take his word for anything - Hanratty admitted he'd stayed there, in that room, in that bed!

and even was willing to alter his evidence --yet again to help Det. Supt. Acott!

Yeah so just ignore him and let Alphon off the hook!

KR,
Vic.

[Victor]

This young man was in a holiday resort which mainly catered for couples with young families.

Hi Norma,

What about Alexei Sayle's dad who definitely stayed in the Ingledene becasue he signed the guest book? He was there alone on a Union trip, so presumably with other union people - so there could be lots of single men around Rhyl at that time!

This was a busy season and the house was full of guests.The house remained full for some time but towards the end of August,as the end of season approached, the guests began to leave.

So lots of places were full meaning that potentially lots of people would be wandering around looking for accomodation, and it'd be a long search seeing as so many of them were full.

KR,
Vic.

[Black Rabbit]

The comment and surety of just one of the jurors is not enough to suggest that there was not dissent in the jury room and if the above points had been put forward it would have swayed the jury, if not at Bedford then certainly at the Old Bailey.Derrick

Ah, but it was in Bedford and not the Bailey and we all know about Bedfordshire juries.

RonIpstone I have asked you more than once to explain your arrogant aspersions towards the people of Bedfordshire.

As someone who is Bedfordshire born and bred, I cannot help but regard your comments as a personal insult, as would anyone else from Bedfordshire

so I ask you again to either explain yourself or apologise.

Admin I request that if no satisfactory reply from RonIpstone is forthcoming, he be banned for further posting on this forum. I think it's unacceptable that we form Bedfordshire should be subject to RonIpstones blatant, bigotted prejudice.

[Victor]

"Those cartridge cases, it is said, were left before 24 August. They were not found until 11 September. You have heard another person used that room,that there were other people in the hotel,that there was a way outside from this bedroom,and you must not jump to the conclusion that the mere finding of these cartridge cases there denoted that they were left there by the prisoner."

Hi Norma,

That's absolutely correct they shouldn't jump to conclusions - now just who's word do we have to listen to to put someone else in that room (other than the Indian guy who definitely wasn't the gunman)? Ah yes, your great nemesis the "ganster" Nudds - you'll have to big him up to believe that Alphon was anywhere near the basement.

KR,
Vic.

[Natalie Severn]

Also, even though it was glaringly obvious that Smith was not only a serial murderer but a complete and total rogue, he maintained his innocence right to the very end, twice telling James Ellis the hangman that "I am innocent"

And in this notorious case there was at least a great deal of real evidence against the murderer.

The whole point about Hanratty is that most of "the evidence" if it deserves the name, appears to have been a set of "manufactured and astonishing coincidences" from the moment Janet Gregsten /William Ewer "saw him at the cleaners"---two yards opposite their shop on 31st August.....which was only the first of a whole series of "astonishing coincidences" that are supposed to have happened; like Alphon being arrested in his Finsbury Park Hotel after police asked for information on anybody " acting strangely" and being interrogated for the A6 murder,[ later confessing to it] to when Valerie Storie "identified" heavily built Michael Clark as her rapist and the murderer therefore releasing Alphon and Acott then leapfrogging back to the Vienna Hotel to Mr Nudds [alias Uncle Tom Cobley} "cos when Mr Nudds was sacked from the Vienna Hotel on September 11th ,hadn"t the cartridge cases suddenly made their truly "magical appearance"!!!!!WOW!!!!! and not in Alphon"s room either but below Alphon"s where Hanratty had stayed at the Vienna Hotel
....so erm -Acott decided it must have been Hanratty then " cos Nudds "told them so " and even was willing to alter his evidence --yet again to help Det. Supt. Acott!

You "come on"-!

Luckiest Det.Supt. in the force it would appear!

[Victor]

[*]The testimony of all of the known Rhyl witnesses at the time.

Hi Derrick,

That's the problem with Ambush Alibis - and of course Sherrard didn't use them for the appeal.

[*]Michael Clark bore no resemblance to Hanratty whatsoever. This is the crux of the identification of MG's killer which was so plainly wrong.

That's just not true - we have Dr Rennie's comment that he looked quite similar to Alphon, which completely contradicts the "heavily built" comment, so it's just impossible to conclude he looks nothing like Hanratty without knowing more.

KR,
Vic.

[Natalie Severn]

Are you seriously suggesting that Hanratty was the only young cockney man wandering around a highly popular resort like Rhyl at the height of the holiday season? Come on!

Graham

This young man was in a holiday resort which mainly catered for couples with young families.His presence in the late evening of August 22nd,looking for a B&B was, as Betty Davies said rather" late" to be looking for accomodation.

Mrs Betty Davies,33 of 19 South Kinmel Street,Rhyl.May 26 1968.

"I gave birth on July 20th 1961 to a baby girl in Chatsworth House,Prestatyn.The baby was ill when I returned home on Friday 28th July..........My baby died on July 31st and was buried on August 3rd.This was a busy season and the house was full of guests.The house remained full for some time but towardsthe end of August,as the end of season approached,the guests began to leave.
One evening ,late in August-I cannot remember the exact date*-I was alone in the house with my small daughter.It was late evening and growing dark.The bell rang and I answered the door.A young man was standing on the pavement outside.I"d say he was in his twenties.He had dark hjair and was softly spoken.
He asked if I could take him in for Bed and breakfast.....I said we couldnt and suggested he tried further down the street..........
I went into my mother"s house which backed onto mine.......
some months later a man came to the door from a London firm of solicitors.He asked if the house had a green bath in the attic.We said wehadn"t and he went away.A uniformed policeman also called and showed me a sketch of a man and asked if I recognised it.I said I didn"t ."

Mrs Betty Davies was backed up on the date of her encounter and her description which tallied with that of Mrs Margaret Walker who remembered the young man calling at her house and also remembered his hair looking "streaky" in colour.Mrs Ivy Vincent living a little further along the street, remembered seeing the man call at Mrs Walker"s and then coming to ask her the same question.
Mrs Walker had not wisedh to get involved in a case of murder and her husband had warned her not to,but when she realised the man was on trial for his life and that she believed she had seen him on the 22nd of August and had seen Mrs Margaret Davies,Betty"s mother in law and Betty later that evening,she went to the police shortly before the end of the trial in February.
Mrs Davies stated that Betty,after seeing the man, had run in to her house and told her about the incident.It is clear it was the same young man as the other women saw.
Moreover, Mrs Davies senior had told her daughter in law that she was right not to take in " any young man on his own, when it was growing dark, especially when she was on her own.
Graham, when you piece together their statements it is quite clear that this was
a] a rather unusual time to call ,and that
b] for one reason or another -the incident did stand out in their memory.

* Mrs Margaret Walker remembered the exact date because of a family incident that took place later that week.She had gone to talk about this matter with Mrs Margaret Davies and she was there when Betty,the daughter-in-law had run in to see her Mrs Davies senior and told her about her "late evening caller".

[Graham]

I'm reading Jane Robins' excellent book on the Brides In The Bath case, and have just come across this instruction given to the jury by Mr Justice Strutton at the trail of George Joseph Smith:

"The jury must bear in mind that a good many people who have seen nothing, when they are told something, they see a lot. There is a good deal of that in all this evidence"

A comment which I think applies to the Rhyl "witnesses".

Also, even though it was glaringly obvious that Smith was not only a serial murderer but a complete and total rogue, he maintained his innocence right to the very end, twice telling James Ellis the hangman that "I am innocent".


Graham

[Graham]

Are you seriously suggesting that Hanratty was the only young cockney man wandering around a highly popular resort like Rhyl at the height of the holiday season? Come on!

Graham

[Natalie Severn]

I imagine that a cockney geezer type like Hanratty would have stood out big time in a Welsh town back then

Like, as they say, a sore thumb.

Good point Stephen and very true.