Locations

[caz]

It does seem odd that such a habitually careless criminal managed to be in a car for a number of hours and yet didn't leave a single trace.

It's almost as if it were a different person altogether.

Hi Uncle,

You mean a different habitually careless criminal who didn't leave a single trace?

Are we back to the invisible Mr. Nobody argument?

Look, if you want careless, you have a killer who left the only witness alive when he drove off. That's about as careless and inexperienced as it gets. So if it wasn't Hanratty, you still get careful regarding traces of himself in the car; still get careless in the extreme concerning the witness; plus incredibly lucky that Valerie believed it was Hanratty.

Love,

Caz
X

[uncle_adolph]

That really just leaves Hanratty being careless, like he was with pretty much everything else.

Love,

Caz
X

It does seem odd that such a habitually careless criminal managed to be in a car for a number of hours and yet didn't leave a single trace.

It's almost as if it were a different person altogether.

[caz]

Thanks Graham. Always good to read your posts.

I just can't think of any way those cartridge cases could have been planted to frame either Alphon or Hanratty. None of the theoretical alternatives make any sense when you look at the timeline and all the known circumstances.

That really just leaves Hanratty being careless, like he was with pretty much everything else.

Love,

Caz
X

[Graham]

Hi Caz,

to quote Sherrard (for the zillionth time) 'this case is dripping with coincidence'. In fact, you couldn't make it up! Seriously, I think had Alphon genuinely had an involvement in the A6 he wouldn't have been seen for dust afterwards. Of course, there will always be those who will shout out that it's 'an obvious fact' that Alphon and Hanratty knew each other and were part of a deep conspiracy, simply because they happened to stay at the same hotel. Just one thing convinces me they are wrong: there is absolutely not one jot of proof that Alphon was involved. Unfortunately, Alphon was as nutty as a fruit-cake and once he'd been cleared, with the very willing assistance and encouragement of M. Jean Justice, he went to town.

Re: the cartridges in Room 24, from what I can make out they were stuck down the back of the upholstery of what sounds like an over-stuffed chair and couldn't be seen until Mr Crocker started tearing at a piece of loose fabric, dislodging them. As to whether they were left there by Hanratty or planted, hard to tell, but I feel that had they been planted they would have been placed more visibly.

Nice to see you back on these threads, Caz!

Graham

[caz]

Following the murder, the police had absolutely no leads to follow up, yet Alphon was by no means the first person interviewed in connection with the murder. Following what was then quite normal police practice, Acott issued a general request via the media for any hotel, B&B or boarding-house proprietor to let him know if they had a guest whose behaviour was suspicious or abnormal. Today, such a move by the police would be considered very strange, but back then it was how it was.

Mr Sims, manager of The Alexander Court, informed the police on 27 August that he had such a guest, who was keeping odd hours and his noisy behaviour in his room was annoying other guests. The first time the police visited, Alphon (who had checked in with the name Frederick Durrant) wasn't in, but when they returned he was in his room and was asked questions including where he was on the night of 22 August. He told them the truth that he was at The Vienna registered as Frederick Durrant. The police told him to re-register in his real name and warned him to behave himself. With that Alphon disappeared from view. There was NO police hunt for Alphon until the cartridge cases were found at the Vienna on 11 September. That's when the police descended upon the hotel and started a desperate search for Alphon, who surrendered himself on 22 September shortly after the police publicly named him in connection with the A6.

The police had known about The Vienna since 27 August but had no reason to connect it with the A6 as they did not consider Alphon a suspect until the cartridges were found. Obviously, they checked the register regarding who else had stayed there on 22 August which is when the name Ryan was first brought to their attention.

Graham

Hi Graham,

You put this very well. Basically the coincidences here boil down to the fact that one of the hotel-frequenting oddballs initially targeted by the police appeal - which describes Alphon to a tee - who happened to have the most common blood group O - happened to spend the night in the same hotel (and possibly the same room, 24, although I'm not sure that was ever established beyond doubt?) where the A6 murderer - also a group O hotel-frequenting oddball - happened to spend the previous night.

Two hotel-frequenting group O oddballs (or petty criminals, or 'men with something not quite right upstairs', if you prefer) choosing the same hotel could not have been that unusual for the time and place. It only looks that way because the cartridge cases from the murder weapon naturally elevated Alphon above all the others until the man who had unwisely left them in his hotel room could be identified and tracked down. It was just unfortunate that this elevation allowed the larger-than-life Alphon to enjoy a lot more than his fifteen minutes of infamy. Had he not been the character he was to begin with, he would not have come to police attention before the cartridge cases were found, and it is questionable that he would have done so at all once J Ryan was identified as having occupied room 24 the night before the murder.

As for the hankie, which was provably used by Hanratty and found with the murder weapon, there is no evidence and no explanation offered as to how Alphon would have come into direct contact with either, and the idea of the cartridge cases being planted by Alphon himself, or anyone protecting Alphon and trying to frame Hanratty, makes no sense considering they both stayed in the Vienna (and were therefore equally vulnerable to suspicion). That fact alone has to be a coincidence, doesn't it?

Those who argue that the police found the cartridge cases elsewhere and planted them to snare Alphon initially, before Hanratty conveniently came on their radar, would need to explain the huge 'coincidence' of the hankie turning out to bear his DNA, and his alone. Conversely, how could the police have planted the cartridge cases to snare Hanratty, before they even knew he had stayed in that room?

In short, I don't see how Alphon could have been involved if those cartridge cases were planted by anyone. Maybe I'm missing something?

Love,

Caz
X

[JPR1975]

Hi Nick

It was only last November (2015) that I stayed at the Westminster (I'd taken the Foot/Woffinden) books with me (I was in Rhyl as had been to a football match in nearby Colwyn Bay) and didn't realise the significance of the hotel until I browsed through the books the evening I was there (although I've read both many times in the past). I mentioned it to the (young) receptionist when checking out the next morning, but she hadn't the remotest idea what I was talking about it.

Cheers

JPR

[NickB]

JPR,

You mentioned staying at the Westminster Hotel in Rhyl.

This was indeed where the newly formed 'A6 Murder Committee' (Justice, Fox, Foot, Mary, James and Michael) stayed on the Whitsun Bank Holiday weekend starting 25-May-68. Fox paid the bill. Advertisements had been placed in the press appealing for new witnesses.

There was a press conference on the Sunday evening when it was announced five new witnesses had come forward. This photo shows a press conference in a hotel-type room, but I don’t know if it was the one at Rhyl.

I had imagined that Alphon’s ‘press conference’ in May-67 at the Hotel du Louvre was in one of their meeting rooms. But actually he just sat at a table in the public bar then repaired to the far more modest Hotel Sainte-Anne where the TV interview was conducted and he stayed the night.

Incidentally, just a few yards from the cornfield entrance is a church called ‘St James the Less’!

[JPR1975]

Hi Graham

About 10 years ago (when travelling through the two areas) I did visit the hold up and murder sites (or as close as I could get), and as you say both I imagine are quite a bit different now. It was a crying shame that the Old Station Inn has long since gone, otherwise I would have stopped in for a pint.

Cheers

JPR

[NickB]

I also took it at face value when I first posted here. However if you look at Tony's posts, they often consisted of imaginary dialogue so I suppose he presumed we knew this is what it was.

[Graham]

Spitfire and Nick,

indeed, as I recall it was someone called Tony who said that Hanratty had confirmed in court that the hankie was his. Like many posters, I accepted this at face value but I am aware that it was questioned and discussed some time ago, but not I believe resolved. If it was a bit of invention on Tony's part, then I do think it was a tad irresponsible, but no matter. If what Tony said is factual, then I should be interested to know where he got that information.

Graham

[NickB]

If Hanratty had admitted the hankie was his it would have been reported in the newspapers. They provide quite detailed coverage of his evidence and it is inconceivable that something of this significance would have been excluded.

[Spitfire]

The gun found on the 36A bus was forensically and ballistically tested, and was found to totally beyond doubt the weapon that was used to kill Gregsten and maim Valerie. The cartridge cases found at The Vienna and in the car, and the bullets taken from Valerie, were shown to have been fired from that very gun. It was not chucked into the sea; it was deposited under the upstairs back seat of a 36A bus and was duly discovered wrapped in a hankie which Hanratty agreed was his and which was later established to contain his DNA. How the gun came to be on the bus and wrapped in one of Hanratty's hankies is open to debate; but it was, and that is a fact.

I have firm doubts that Hanratty ever gave evidence to the effect that the hankie was his and that this factoid has come about through the invention of an earlier poster on this forum.

There is no mention in either of Foot or Woffinden's books that Hanratty made such an admission. Moreover the DNA tests on the hankie would not have been of any great moment if Hanratty had agreed that the hankie was his. Indeed the only comment anyone could have made in the Court of Appeal in 2002 in those circumstances would have been, "what did you expect to find on Hanratty's used hankie but Hanratty's DNA from his mucus?"

That Hanratty's hankie was used to wrap the gun did not conclusively prove guilt but went a long way to confirming it.

[Graham]

There are too many coincidences regarding Alphon for my liking.

In one of his confessions Alphon explained how, after the murder, he had met Dixie France (in a seaside town - Southend? I'm going from memory now because it's been a while since I read my books on this case) - where they went to a Steak House, then Alphon pulled out the gun (which he had been given to him on a prior occasion in order to frighten Gregston but was ultimately used to kill him) and France was a bit shocked to see Alphon so openly waving the gun around, but he took it from him and they walked up the pier where France threw it in the sea.

I remember when it read it that Alphon's account of that day sounded very plausible. So, for that matter, does most of his account of what happened in the hours leading up to the murder.

Louisa, this is total nonsense, but if you really do believe it, then I for one will be genuinely interested in your source.

The gun found on the 36A bus was forensically and ballistically tested, and was found to totally beyond doubt the weapon that was used to kill Gregsten and maim Valerie. The cartridge cases found at The Vienna and in the car, and the bullets taken from Valerie, were shown to have been fired from that very gun. It was not chucked into the sea; it was deposited under the upstairs back seat of a 36A bus and was duly discovered wrapped in a hankie which Hanratty agreed was his and which was later established to contain his DNA. How the gun came to be on the bus and wrapped in one of Hanratty's hankies is open to debate; but it was, and that is a fact.

Graham

[louisa]

There are too many coincidences regarding Alphon for my liking.

In one of his confessions Alphon explained how, after the murder, he had met Dixie France (in a seaside town - Southend? I'm going from memory now because it's been a while since I read my books on this case) - where they went to a Steak House, then Alphon pulled out the gun (which he had been given to him on a prior occasion in order to frighten Gregston but was ultimately used to kill him) and France was a bit shocked to see Alphon so openly waving the gun around, but he took it from him and they walked up the pier where France threw it in the sea.

I remember when it read it that Alphon's account of that day sounded very plausible. So, for that matter, does most of his account of what happened in the hours leading up to the murder.

[Graham]

But why would the police go back to the same hotel and expect to find another suspect? Can someone refresh my memory? Was it that the cartridges had been found (planted more like!)?

Louisa, the cartridge cases were found and shown to have been fired with the same gun used to kill Gregsten. Therefore the police were reasonably confident that whoever had stayed in Room 24 on the 21 August had been in possession of the murder weapon and had, by logical extension, almost certainly committed the murder. Once Alphon was in the clear via the ID parade the police had to accept that he had nothing to do with the A6 case and that his presence in the Vienna on the night in question was purely coincidental.

They therefore had little option other than return to the Vienna and so dowhat they should have done some time before, and discover just who else other than Alphon had stayed in the hotel that night, particularly in Room 24. Hence the name Ryan came in the frame.

If you wish to believe that the cartridges were planted, then that is your prerogative, but is I think now impossible to prove.

Obviously there is far more to these particular aspects of the story.

Graham