James Camb - "The Porthole Case"

[GUT]

Butler (or whatever his name was) has been considered Australia's first SK

[GUT]

Ned Kelly

Re Ned surviving

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/australasia/two-of-the-ned-kelly-gang-survived-ambush-and-lived-on-for-years-says-historian-296451.html

Whilst that says it was Dan that survived there are plenty who believe that Ned escaped and Dan went to the gallows, as Dan would have been for the drop anyway, but if the authorities thought Ned was Dan there would have been a greater investigation and hunt. Whereas Dan was considered less of a threat.

[GUT]

Is this the one you were thinking of Jeff where the compare Butler to Deemng

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/54503919.

It is the only Triple I know of around that time.

[Rosella]

The Blue Mountains are in NSW, Mayerling. Yes, these murder were callous, killing for profit, luring young men and one older on some wild goose chase gold mining venture. Thank heavens Frank Butler was nabbed before he was able to settle in California.
By the way the Deeming house in Windsor (Melbourne) still exists, or at least it did a few years ago when I last saw it. The area is gentrified now and this property would be worth many hundreds of thousands of dollars. Probably the present owners know about its history but are quite OK with it.

[GUT]

Geoff, where are the Blue Mountains located - aren't they in Victoria, or are they in New South Wales? There was a triple homicide there in 1896 that involved extraditing the killer from the U.S. where he fled to using the name of one of the victims as an alias.

Jeff

Blue Mountains are in NSW just outside Sydney a beautiful area, don't think know that case, but will have a search.

[Mayerling]

Geoff, where are the Blue Mountains located - aren't they in Victoria, or are they in New South Wales? There was a triple homicide there in 1896 that involved extraditing the killer from the U.S. where he fled to using the name of one of the victims as an alias.

Jeff

[GUT]

The most chilling crime site I've ever visited is Port Arthur, after the massacre, by that low life Bryant.

[GUT]

I am rousing my Australian criminal history memories for Melbourne and Victoria in general. Deeming and Ned Kelly come to mind. Have you seen the site of the murder of Deeming's second wife, Emily, which was in Melbourne (I'm sure the house has long since gone), and the site of where the hotel was that was at the center of Kelly's "armored" attack (gee I like that style of a almost perfect suit of armor!).

Jeff

Been to both, and visited many of the site Deeming lived at in Victoria. As well as where he worked in Sydney and Rockhampton.

And of ourselves the Old Supreme Court where both got "the drop". In fact usually stay opposite when in Melbourne.

Visited the gaol a couple of times where they were intered.

[Mayerling]

I've also been to Ford's theatre, Mayerling. What a fascinating place it is! I was also lucky enough as a young teenager to see some of the Ripper sites in the East End in the early 1960's before they were changed forever. I say 'lucky' just as a true crime buff. Of course they certainly weren't lucky places for five unfortunate women.
I also saw 10 Rillington Place, the home of Reginald Christie (and the Evans family) from the outside, before it was demolished. Here in Melbourne I've continued this odd hobby, and I agree, it's best to keep it under wraps. Even relatives who know about it think it strange!

I am rousing my Australian criminal history memories for Melbourne and Victoria in general. Deeming and Ned Kelly come to mind. Have you seen the site of the murder of Deeming's second wife, Emily, which was in Melbourne (I'm sure the house has long since gone), and the site of where the hotel was that was at the center of Kelly's "armored" attack (gee I like that style of a almost perfect suit of armor!).

Jeff

[ColdCaseJury]

Seems like it.

To be fair, GUT can still maintain that not ALL the evidence is presented, even in a book. So he can stick to his guns! However, the whole point of the Cold Case Jury books is to present the salient evidence and the different theories and then ask the reader for his or her verdict. As Rosella says below, nothing hangs on the verdict. However, I would claim that at least my summing up is more balanced than the judge's in this trial!

Antony Matthew Brown
Author, Cold Case Jury

[Rosella]

I've also been to Ford's theatre, Mayerling. What a fascinating place it is! I was also lucky enough as a young teenager to see some of the Ripper sites in the East End in the early 1960's before they were changed forever. I say 'lucky' just as a true crime buff. Of course they certainly weren't lucky places for five unfortunate women.
I also saw 10 Rillington Place, the home of Reginald Christie (and the Evans family) from the outside, before it was demolished. Here in Melbourne I've continued this odd hobby, and I agree, it's best to keep it under wraps. Even relatives who know about it think it strange!

[Mayerling]

Hi Jeff,

prior to retirement I tried to visit as many scenes of famous crimes as I could during my business trips around the UK. I've visited the three 'murder houses' you mention, all three of which are now private homes, so I could only stand outside as close as I could get and try to soak up some atmos. I was never cheeky enough to knock the door and ask for a tour. Also, all three have reported spooky phenomena over the years.....

In about 1970 I walked all round the various Ripper scenes of crime (what was left of them). 29 Hanbury Street was still there then, and I had the impression it was still occupied. That same day I'd planned to visit 10 Rillington Place, but didn't make it. I believe it and the entire street were demolished in 1971. My wife thinks I'm slightly loopy.

Graham

Aside from Ford's Theatre in Washington, I have visited the site of the Amityville "Horror" murders on Long Island (like you I stood outside, as it is again a private home), the site of a young ladies' school in Manhattan near the New York Public Library that was the scene of a famous New York City poisoning case (the Carlyle Harris case of 1891 - 1893), and the site of the attack murder of Kitty Genovese in Kew Gardens Hills, Queens, New York City. I don't like to push my location huntings because they do strike many people as odd, and they interfere with the privacy of two many people.

I also have stood in front of the still standing private town house of Benjamin Nathan, who was murdered in the house in 1870. The murder of Mr. Nathan (a Vice President of the New York Stock Exchange, and uncle and namesake of future Associate Justice of the United States Supreme Court Benjamin Nathan Cardozo) was never solved.

Jeff

[Graham]

would not be too surprised if No. 2 Leopold Road in Crawley still exists. It was a commercial site for industrial purposes (like a repair shop). Many sites of famous murders still stand and still are used: Lizzie Borden's home in Fall River, Massachusetts is a museum and bed and breakfast; Constance Kent's home in Road, England is still standing, as is Battlecrease House - Florence and Jack...err James Maybrick's home in Liverpool, and the Priory where Charlie Bravo drank the wrong stuff. Unfortunately Crippen's House on Hilldrop Crescent was destroyed in the Blitz.

Hi Jeff,

prior to retirement I tried to visit as many scenes of famous crimes as I could during my business trips around the UK. I've visited the three 'murder houses' you mention, all three of which are now private homes, so I could only stand outside as close as I could get and try to soak up some atmos. I was never cheeky enough to knock the door and ask for a tour. Also, all three have reported spooky phenomena over the years.....

In about 1970 I walked all round the various Ripper scenes of crime (what was left of them). 29 Hanbury Street was still there then, and I had the impression it was still occupied. That same day I'd planned to visit 10 Rillington Place, but didn't make it. I believe it and the entire street were demolished in 1971. My wife thinks I'm slightly loopy.

Graham

[Mayerling]

Hi Jeff,

yes indeed, old Haigh dropped a real blooper there - Mrs Durand-Deacon's false gnashers were in those days probably made of porcelain anyway, which I don't think would have been completely dissolved by anything. He should have popped them out, to be on the safe side. Apparently it's very difficult to remove all traces of a body by the use of corrosive chemicals. Still, Haigh had a good go!

BTW, I have a feeling that his premises at No 2 Leopold Road in Crawley are still standing.

Graham

Actually Graham, considering the innovativeness (or seeming so - no prior acid bath killer is actually known) of Mr. Haigh, he felt so secure he made too many errors with this last victim. He allowed her to tell her intimates she was meeting him on that last day she was seen. He did not find a place to store the jewelry and fur safely to be converted to cash when he could do so without fear (possibly never though - anyway he was in debt to that residence hotel and elsewhere and readily needed cash, so maybe he couldn't do so). Personally I think he just got too cocky.

I would not be too surprised if No. 2 Leopold Road in Crawley still exists. It was a commercial site for industrial purposes (like a repair shop). Many sites of famous murders still stand and still are used: Lizzie Borden's home in Fall River, Massachusetts is a museum and bed and breakfast; Constance Kent's home in Road, England is still standing, as is Battlecrease House - Florence and Jack...err James Maybrick's home in Liverpool, and the Priory where Charlie Bravo drank the wrong stuff. Unfortunately Crippen's House on Hilldrop Crescent was destroyed in the Blitz.

Jeff

[Graham]

Hi Jeff,

yes indeed, old Haigh dropped a real blooper there - Mrs Durand-Deacon's false gnashers were in those days probably made of porcelain anyway, which I don't think would have been completely dissolved by anything. He should have popped them out, to be on the safe side. Apparently it's very difficult to remove all traces of a body by the use of corrosive chemicals. Still, Haigh had a good go!

BTW, I have a feeling that his premises at No 2 Leopold Road in Crawley are still standing.

Graham