JonBenet Ramsey Murder case

[louisa]

maybe someone she met through the pagents or maybe one of the recent workers on their house.

Jesus wept.

There was no intruder! Why keep trying to conjure up somebody who doesn't exist? And never existed except in the warped imaginations of the Ramsey pair?

And JonBenet was unconscious before the strangulation. FACT. I don't know what more it takes for people to accept that.

And please don't say you know more about this case than the Chief of Police. He would have had ALL the facts in front of him before he made this statement. He knew a lot more than you and I will ever know about this case.

We are going to have to accept the facts as the experts have stated.

Chief Mark Beckner

"We know from the evidence she was hit in the head very hard with an unknown object, possibly a flashlight or similar type item. The blow knocked her into deep unconsciousness, which could have led someone to believe she was dead. The strangulation came 45 minutes to two hours after the head strike, based on the swelling on the brain. While the head wound would have eventually killed her, the strangulation actually did kill her. The rest of the scene we believe was staged, including the vaginal trauma, to make it look like a kidnapping/assault gone bad."

[louisa]

I have just had another look at the autopsy report and photos and there was only one ligature around JB's neck, not two. There is a mark below it which is a bruise where the ligature rubbed the skin originally and then it rolled up to it's final place of strangulation.

I won't put the photos on here because you will have already seen them.

[Abby Normal]

Jesus wept.

There was no intruder! Why keep trying to conjure up somebody who doesn't exist? And never existed except in the warped imaginations of the Ramsey pair?

And JonBenet was unconscious before the strangulation. FACT. I don't know what more it takes for people to accept that.

And please don't say you know more about this case than the Chief of Police. He would have had ALL the facts in front of him before he made this statement. He knew a lot more than you and I will ever know about this case.

We are going to have to accept the facts as the experts have stated.

Chief Mark Beckner

"We know from the evidence she was hit in the head very hard with an unknown object, possibly a flashlight or similar type item. The blow knocked her into deep unconsciousness, which could have led someone to believe she was dead. The strangulation came 45 minutes to two hours after the head strike, based on the swelling on the brain. While the head wound would have eventually killed her, the strangulation actually did kill her. The rest of the scene we believe was staged, including the vaginal trauma, to make it look like a kidnapping/assault gone bad."

Hi Louisa
I agree with a lot and I mean a lot of what you post and obviously Beckners words are very powerful and I do give them weight. If I had to make a choice, I would say that yes, the head wound came first. But on this and a lot of issues on this case I keep an open mind and am just looking at different possibilities. as Ive said many times before I'm about 50/50 on intruder vs ramseys with slightly leaning towrd ramseys.
and please do me a favor-leave Jesus out of it. please.

[louisa]

Hi Abby,

Jesus wept is a chapter in the Bible. I don't know which one because I'm not religious. It's the shortest chapter with just those two words.

I didn't mean to offend.

And my post # 841 was aimed at Wicksy, not you, Abby, sorry about that.
.
.
.

[louisa]

Autopsy Findings

The Garotte

Cord Around Neck. "Wrapped around the neck with a double knot in the midline of the posterior neck is a length of white cord similar to that described as being tied around the right wrist." Removal of Cord by Coroner. "This ligature cord is cut on the right side of the neck and removed. A single black ink mark is placed on the left side of the cut and a double black ink mark on the right side of the cut. The posterior knot is left intact."

Wooden Stick at End of Cord. "Extending from the knot on the posterior aspect of the neck are two tails of the knot, one measuring 4 inches in length and having a frayed end, and the other measuring 17 inches in length with the end tied in multiple loops around a length of a round tan-brown wooden stick which measures 4.5 inches in length.

FINAL DIAGNOSIS: I. Ligature strangulation
A. Circumferential ligature with associated ligature furrow of neck

-------------------------------

Michael Kane Assessment. Special prosecutor Michael Kane stated: "I don’t know where this came from that these were sophisticated knots. I don’t know that anybody had the opportunity to untie those knots who was an expert in knots, but the police department had somebody who fit that category and that was not the opinion of that person. These were very simple knots."

AntiK Assessment. Internet poster AntiK has done extensive experiments with the garrotte and argues that "the ligature/garrote and the knot used for it’s construction is very simple. It’s basic – kindergarten. There is nothing complex or complicated about it. anyone – anyone – who claims otherwise is wrong." Delmar England Assessment. Likewise, Internet poster Delmar England, a self-reported expert in knots, has provided an in-depth analysis arguing that the garrote and wrist ties were done by someone with no familiarity with knots.

Could the Ramseys have tied the knots?

John Ramsey had naval experience, that both he and Patsy were active sailors, and Burke Ramsey was in Scouts, all of which would have given them some expertise in knot-tying. The knot was a Prusik that easily could have been tied by any of the Ramseys.

Evidence the Head Blow Came First......

Expert Opinion. Drs. Werner Spitz, Tom Henry, Henry Lee, and Ron Wright all concluded the head blow came first.

Ronald Wright, MD "director of the forensic pathology department at the University of Miami School of Medicine, reviewed JonBenet's autopsy report Tuesday at the request of the Rocky Mountain News." RMN stated: "The blow to her head -- which Wright is convinced was not from a golf club but more likely a blunt object such as a baseball bat or heavy flashlight -- came first, Wright said. "She was hit on the head a long time before she was strangled," said Wright. 'That might or might not have rendered her unconscious. But this is not anything that kills her right away.' He said 20 to 60 minutes elapsed between the skull fracture and the strangulation."

Head Blow with Little Bleeding Possible. Kerry Brega, chief neurologist at Denver Health Medical Center, said it is not uncommon for people with skull fractures to not have any bleeding. "We see a lot of people with skull fractures without bleeds in the brain, and they didn't all get strangled on the way in," she said. "So it is actually possible to get a skull fracture without getting an underlying bleed in the brain."

[Wickerman]

I said she would not have walked anywhere if she was unconscious!

I know what you said, and the implication of what you said means JB was struck on the head in her bedroom. I can't imagine how you arrived at that conclusion.

I expect they already know Wicksy old chap.

Burke is my No. 1 suspect anyway.

Now it's Burke??
Someone using your name seemed very confident in the past few weeks that Patsy was to blame.

You should get James Kolar's, Foreign Faction. He has some interesting points about Burke, no evidence as such, but he is inclined to believe Burke had a roll to play.

No-one is going to 'swing' for this murder.
The police prime suspect Patsy is dead, Burke was too young to be held responsible for anything. Even if he admitted it today I don't think the law can do anything about it.
And, there never has been anything to suggest John Ramsey was involved beyond 'circling the wagons' to protect the family. The most John could have been charged with was Accessory After the Fact, but the Statute of Limitations has run out on that.

So, unless there really was an intruder, no-one will ever be charged in connection with this case.
And, given that fact, I can't imagine the Boulder Police dedicating any significant time or funds to further investigation of this murder.

[Wickerman]

And you think that I would believe anything this man says? He has already been caught out in lies.

Well, you don't want to believe anything he says. In place of his statements you have your own theories. Now why should your suspicions be any more reliable than John's statements?

How did he suppose this 'kidnapper' was going to drop off another letter when the police received the emergency call at 5.52am and the house was cordoned off by police tape (and police were stationed outside) shortly afterwards?

The police only took possession of the house after the body was found. At that point the house was a murder scene, prior to that people were coming and going and no real attention was being paid to securing the house.

Perhaps she saw some disturbing signs in Burke?

I'm sure she didn't buy those books for light reading.

[Wickerman]

a point about burke and age.
He was nine.

where we used to live and the time (the mid 70s) things were wide open in terms of parent supervision of kids and basically the kids ran wild in the neighbor hood. there was a kid who was 7 or 8(!!) who was considered by the rest of the kids as weird. he was hyper, often violent argued alot and there fore often a loner. He was mean toward neighborhood pets.

It turns out he was luring young girls into a "fort" he had built and molesting them. a couple even involved penetration with a stick. He was only busted when one girl fought, got away and he hit her in the back with a rock-causing bleeding and a bruise, which then her parents found out and she eventually told them and they went to the police. some other girls finally admitted he did similar things to them but they were too scared and ashamed to come forward earlier.

so I think age cant be a factor in totally ruling him out. It is possible for young boys to be sexual predators, although rare of course.

the construction of the garrote and use of the garrotte is problematic to me however.

I agree about your experience with the kids, but that is what makes your experience so different to Burke.
No friends of Burke have ever testified to such contrary behaviour.

It's fine to say Burke could have been wild, weird or cruel because we have seen kids of that age do something similar.
Thats the whole point.....those kids were seen to act that way, Burke was never seen to act that way.
So how can we compare apples to oranges?

I'm not defending Burke. I have my suspicions about his role in this myself. But without some coincidental stories about Burke from neighborhood friends, school friends, or local parents, we are in no position to assess any role he may have played.

[Wickerman]

Abby, you have raised some good points there.

I wouldn't mind betting that horrible little boy you described went on to commit other sadistic crimes.

So how can you suspect Burke when he has not continued to hit little girls on the head, and do other nasty things?

[Wickerman]

No, they do not. If you would like to show where they have said this? However, I believe it was applied once and made a couple of marks when the person got a better grip.

We know this because at no point in their assessment have they suggested the garrote could have been applied twice.
If the garrote was applied twice that would negate their conclusions.
It's as simple as that.

Oh, right, so the experts are guessing are they?

Judge for yourself....
- Wright - "20 minutes to 1 hour".
- Bechner - "45 minutes to 2 hours".
I'd call that guessing, wouldn't you???

Of course they are guessing. They have estimated how long it might take for the brain to swell after a blow of that nature.
The swelling is in part a result of blood flow, so if the garrote is restricting the flow of blood to the brain that will affect the time the brain takes to swell.

And your theory is NOT speculation then?

The marks from the garotte are probably typical of that type of ligature being applied, the cord could have slipped and made a second mark. You obviously did not think of this.

Certainly, you should notice the lower garrote line is quite separate from the line above. The flesh between the two is white and unaffected.
Two separate applications.

Your theory counteracts all those of the medical experts put together! But hey!... don't let a little thing like the truth stand in the way of your theory.

When your two experts cannot agree, then either one of them or both of them are wrong.

[Wickerman]

She had the blanket over her, and tucked in 'like a papoose'

You apparently need to read Foreign Faction.
Kolar read all 60,000 pages of the investigation prior to writing his book.

That's the first I've heard about that.

It's highly unlikely that your bogus intruder would garotte her outside of the room where her body was found.

The whole scenario is highly unlikely.

The murder itself was an unlikely event, but it happened.

[Abby Normal]

I agree about your experience with the kids, but that is what makes your experience so different to Burke.
No friends of Burke have ever testified to such contrary behaviour.

It's fine to say Burke could have been wild, weird or cruel because we have seen kids of that age do something similar.
Thats the whole point.....those kids were seen to act that way, Burke was never seen to act that way.
So how can we compare apples to oranges?

I'm not defending Burke. I have my suspicions about his role in this myself. But without some coincidental stories about Burke from neighborhood friends, school friends, or local parents, we are in no position to assess any role he may have played.

It's well known that Burke clocked her with a golf club and that he was known by neighbors as weird.

[Wickerman]

An item of interest

From Rolling Stone magazine:

In bits and pieces from a never-before-aired 1998 interview with Burke Ramsey, JonBenét's brother Burke claims to have stayed put in his room on the night of the murder because he was "just so scared," challenging the belief that he could have had anything to do with it. (John Ramsey called the notion of Bruke committing the crime as "absurd.")

The interview footage shows the child nervously chewing on his fingers and drinking a soda during a conversation with the police, wearing what looks like a sports uniform as he squirms uncomfortably in his seat. The footage was taken two years after the crime occurred, and Burke recalls having last seen his sister in the car on the way home from the a Christmas dinner party at their neighbor's house. The interviews most terrifying accounts include the boy lying in bed with his eyes closed, hearing the commotion in the house worrying about “what might happen to his parents.”


------------------------------------------

My question is: Why would he be worried about what might happen to his parents, if he had not been up and about earlier and knew what had occurred?
.
.
.

I saw the same documentary (which must be where the magazine got its story), I don't recall the bit about the parents, but Burke did say his mom was "going crazy", so he was scared to get out of bed.

In all interviews Burke shows a noticeable disconnect from whatever he is being questioned about. It's almost like he had Attention Deficit Syndrome, and a lack of emotional attachment for anything to do with his little sister.

[Pcdunn]

Channel 9 News story re Ramsey case DNA (10-28-16)

http://www.9news.com/news/investigations/jonbenet-ramsey/a-closer-look-at-the-dna-in-the-jonbent-ramsey-case/343376600

I just watched this story on the local Denver, Colorado newscast. Entitled "DNA in doubt," it looks at the former Boulder District Attorney's letter of apology which she sent to John and Patsy Ramsey, exonerating them from suspicion in the case of their daughter's death in 1996.

The program explains that the discovery of "unknown male" DNA found on JBR's pajama bottoms was obtained by tests that may have been insufficient, due to the small quantity of material found, and due to the fact that the D.A. failed to request further testing, perhaps because her theory regarding a single intruder as the culprit was supported. They also suggested she misunderstood what DNA testing could and could not do.

They also indicated the sample may have been "mixed DNA" from more than one contributor, and that this may have led to a wild goose chase as far as finding the real killer/s.

The current Boulder D.A. said the case was never closed, and remains open now, and that if more information is obtained, he will pursue it with the Boulder Police Department.

This is one of the first new developments in this case in years, so I thought I'd mention it here for all of your attention.

[louisa]

http://www.9news.com/news/investigat...case/343376600

I just watched this story on the local Denver, Colorado newscast. Entitled "DNA in doubt," it looks at the former Boulder District Attorney's letter of apology which she sent to John and Patsy Ramsey, exonerating them from suspicion in the case of their daughter's death in 1996.

The program explains that the discovery of "unknown male" DNA found on JBR's pajama bottoms was obtained by tests that may have been insufficient, due to the small quantity of material found, and due to the fact that the D.A. failed to request further testing, perhaps because her theory regarding a single intruder as the culprit was supported. They also suggested she misunderstood what DNA testing could and could not do.

They also indicated the sample may have been "mixed DNA" from more than one contributor, and that this may have led to a wild goose chase as far as finding the real killer/s.

The current Boulder D.A. said the case was never closed, and remains open now, and that if more information is obtained, he will pursue it with the Boulder Police Department.

This is one of the first new developments in this case in years, so I thought I'd mention it here for all of your attention.

Pat, thanks for that link.

The plot thickens.
.
.