JonBenet Ramsey Murder case

[Abby Normal]

That is a possibility.

Which reminds me of another factor which could tie in with that. I'll post it later.
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my main issue with burke doing it obviously is his age and while he could have been capable of causing the head injury and penetrating her with the paint brush handle, ive always had more of an issue of how he could construct the garrotte. but....

if he had been playing "doctor" or doing other type things with her, and the fantasy and anger/jealousy is building up, I could possibly see him playing around with ropes and stuff, and perhaps had made it prior to that night.

but again, I think if it was someone in the family who did all this to her it was patsy, then possibly john and just possibly Burke.

[Abby Normal]

re the intruder.

One of the problems I have with the intruder idea is that basically no evidence of an intruder anywhere outside the house. no dropped glove, piece of tape, foot prints, forced entry, nothing.

usually when an intruder is involved there is some evidence found outside the house.

I also find it hard to believe that Ramseys did not keep the house locked up, especially around the holidays. And They acted dumb or confused when questioned about this like they did with a lot of questionable things like the flashlight,bag of rope upstairs, the baseball bat. we did maybe we didn't I don't know, It could be ours etc. etc. cmon.

[louisa]

re the intruder.

One of the problems I have with the intruder idea is that basically no evidence of an intruder anywhere outside the house. no dropped glove, piece of tape, foot prints, forced entry, nothing.

usually when an intruder is involved there is some evidence found outside the house.

I also find it hard to believe that Ramseys did not keep the house locked up, especially around the holidays. And They acted dumb or confused when questioned about this like they did with a lot of questionable things like the flashlight,bag of rope upstairs, the baseball bat. we did maybe we didn't I don't know, It could be ours etc. etc. cmon.

Right. When you take the 'intruder' out of the equation the scenario starts to make a bit more sense, especially when we start delving into the personalities of the people in the house.

The only thing that has people thinking there must be an intruder is that some folk just cannot accept that a family could do this to one of their own. Well the R's were not a typical family. I think there was a lot of turmoil hidden beneath the surface of this 'perfect' family that they tried to portray.

As you say, there was no evidence of an intruder that night.

John stated to three separate police officers that he had locked the house up that night (the they wrote this in their notebooks). A statement which he later retracted.

So many lies............ I've compiled a list of the R's lies and it's a long one. Innocent people don't need to lie.


There's a funny post on one of the other crime websites......

"I'm presuming that the consumption of pineapple is illegal in the USA, hence the parents vehemently denying any knowledge of it.

Poor John must have developed Alzheimer's or something. He can't remember whether he broke the window or not, he can't remember if he locked up the house or not, he doesn't remember phoning his pilot. He doesn't remember ever seeing the flashlight before. He doesn't remember that his wife's handwriting is almost the same as the intruder's. He's lucky he can remember he's called John.

And BR? Well he was just a nine year old psycho with a penchant for garrotting.

And Patsy. Poor Patsy, dear woman was so off the planet that she wrote a letter, on her paper, with her pen, using her idioms for the police to find!"


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[Abby Normal]

Right. When you take the 'intruder' out of the equation the scenario starts to make a bit more sense, especially when we start delving into the personalities of the people in the house.

The only thing that has people thinking there must be an intruder is that some folk just cannot accept that a family could do this to one of their own. Well the R's were not a typical family. I think there was a lot of turmoil hidden beneath the surface of this 'perfect' family that they tried to portray.

As you say, there was no evidence of an intruder that night.

John stated to three separate police officers that he had locked the house up that night (the they wrote this in their notebooks). A statement which he later retracted.

So many lies............ I've compiled a list of the R's lies and it's a long one. Innocent people don't need to lie.


There's a funny post on one of the other crime websites......

"I'm presuming that the consumption of pineapple is illegal in the USA, hence the parents vehemently denying any knowledge of it.

Poor John must have developed Alzheimer's or something. He can't remember whether he broke the window or not, he can't remember if he locked up the house or not, he doesn't remember phoning his pilot. He doesn't remember ever seeing the flashlight before. He doesn't remember that his wife's handwriting is almost the same as the intruder's. He's lucky he can remember he's called John.

And BR? Well he was just a nine year old psycho with a penchant for garrotting.

And Patsy. Poor Patsy, dear woman was so off the planet that she wrote a letter, on her paper, with her pen, using her idioms for the police to find!"


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Bingo.

[Wickerman]

"all but one may be empty" Yes and they may ALL be full!

No Helgoth forensics

The first is that there is no forensic evidence which puts Michael Helgoth at the crime scene - no DNA, no fingerprints....etc.

There doesn't need to be. While in general it is expected, it is not at all a requirement.
To take one example, have you read about the van Dam case?
David Westerfield was convicted of the murder of little Danielle van Dam, yet there were no forensic's from him at the crime scene, nor where he dumped the body.

My emphasis.
"Dusek argued that it is plausible for an intruder to enter a home without leaving trace evidence, especially if he is taking appropriate precautions."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Danielle_van_Dam

And Wicksy - You have probably already noticed that I am ignoring your childish insults. So please grow up.

So we will read no more unfounded condescending remarks about these characters then?, no more "golfing buddies", or "twitson", and other childish comments???
I'm glad you've matured.

With respect to your "Druggie" Helgoth, the tablet containers could have been his prescription for Xanax, he also didn't throw away empty coke cans either. We shouldn't label people without knowing the facts.

Helgoth was untidy for sure.
Some might say, "its a guy thing".

[louisa]

"It may be plausible for an intruder to enter a home without leaving trace evidence"..... but could this same intruder undertake ALL the things that you claim your intruder did in the Ramsey residence without leaving a trace?

And you think Helgoth would be neat and tidy enough (not to mention a mastermind crook) to do all these things to JBR and get out of the house leaving the police and the FBI baffled?

Helgoth is a non starter, always was, and you know it.


I'll leave you to nit-pick my other posts.



Good night.
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[Wickerman]

yes. I'm starting to accept more the idea that Burke could have done it all, including making the garrote, and patsy wrote the note to cover it up.

but in this scenario there was no bashing her because he got mad at her for something-like a semi accident. he lures her down specifically for the purpose of assaulting/sexually abusing her and then ends up killing her.

If he did, then everything we have been told about what the family did that night, from arriving home at 9:00 pm, to Patsy making that 911 call the next morning, could be totally different.

If Burke was responsible for this then John & Patsy had to have spent hours with him going over anything & everything people might ask and what his story has to be.
Then allowing him to leave the house with the Whites on getting up the next morning would have been very risky.

If the Ramsey's coached Burke through the night to deal with every eventuality, it hardly seems credible they would snap at him "we're not talking to you", believed to have been heard at the end of the 911 call.

The two scenario's do not complement each other.

[Abby Normal]

If he did, then everything we have been told about what the family did that night, from arriving home at 9:00 pm, to Patsy making that 911 call the next morning, could be totally different.

If Burke was responsible for this then John & Patsy had to have spent hours with him going over anything & everything people might ask and what his story has to be.
Then allowing him to leave the house with the Whites on getting up the next morning would have been very risky.

If the Ramsey's coached Burke through the night to deal with every eventuality, it hardly seems credible they would snap at him "we're not talking to you", believed to have been heard at the end of the 911 call.

The two scenario's do not complement each other.

Agree. I think the enhanced phone stuff is nonsense.
However, I think it's less risky to whisk him off to whites as soon as possible if he knew anything, to get him away from police.

[louisa]

Agree. I think the enhanced phone stuff is nonsense.
However, I think it's less risky to whisk him off to whites as soon as possible if he knew anything, to get him away from police.

Yes, John knew he had to get the family out of there ASAP (that's why he phoned his pilot half an hour after he 'discovered JBR's body). He knew Burke and Patsy would crack under pressure and let something out.

The plan was to get Burke out first, before the police had a chance to ask him anything, and that is possibly (one of the reasons) why they phoned their friends to come over.

Which brings me to another thought....I bet the Whites thought it odd that Patsy was wearing exactly the same clothes that she had been wearing when they last saw her, just a few hours prior. Patsy had told police she had gone to bed that night. I think we know differently.

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[louisa]

If he did, then everything we have been told about what the family did that night, from arriving home at 9:00 pm, to Patsy making that 911 call the next morning, could be totally different.

If Burke was responsible for this then John & Patsy had to have spent hours with him going over anything & everything people might ask and what his story has to be.
Then allowing him to leave the house with the Whites on getting up the next morning would have been very risky.

If the Ramsey's coached Burke through the night to deal with every eventuality, it hardly seems credible they would snap at him "we're not talking to you", believed to have been heard at the end of the 911 call.

The two scenario's do not complement each other.

Burke wouldn't have needed much coaching. He was a quiet and introverted child anyway, even back then.

"If anyone asks, tell them you were in bed and slept through the night until we woke you up this morning!" That's all he had to be coached in.

And it makes sense for John to admonish his son when Burke asks a question. Especially "We're not talking to you".

Well if BR WAS the killer then I can see why the parents wouldn't want to talk to him - not for a long time anyway!


I think that if detectives were going to make up something by saying they heard a child's voice on the phone (in the background) they would have made up something a bit more incriminating than "What did you find?"
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[louisa]

PLEASE NOTE; These parodies are not intended to trivialize or belittle the tragedy of this crime. The songs, which parody not only the inept Boulder Police Department's handling of the case but the original songs as well, were produced as audio "letters to the editor" which Mr. Boyles played on his radio program from time to time. These efforts are dedicated to the hope that someday justice will be done. Until then we reserve the right to mock the process in the interest of hurrying it along.


"Only In Boulder"

http://www.simulstream.com/mp3.html

'The Ransom Letter' is a good one. So is 'Friends in High Places'

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[Wickerman]

Burke wouldn't have needed much coaching. He was a quiet and introverted child anyway, even back then.

"If anyone asks, tell them you were in bed and slept through the night until we woke you up this morning!" That's all he had to be coached in.

That is a direct question.
What I mean is letting things slip which is far more difficult to prevent. An example might be that the Whites offer the kids some pineapple, and Burke lets it slip that he had some last night.
Or the last time he had some of this JonBenet pinched a piece and ran off, I had to chase her.....
You cannot cover all possibilities, and kids like to talk and tell tales, and compete with one-upman-ship.
It's the passing remarks that could land his parents in a whole lot of trouble, avoiding the direct questions is easy to deal with.

If you notice, when Burke was being interviewed, in both cases he was not only asked direct questions. They were trying to draw him into conversation, the reason being, Burke is far more likely to let something slip if they get him to converse with them as opposed to asking him direct questions.

And it makes sense for John to admonish his son when Burke asks a question. Especially "We're not talking to you".

My point was, if the parents had spent any time coaching him in what not to say, "you were in bed all night", "you didn't see JB anymore", "you had no late-night dessert (pineapple)", "you have not touched the flashlight", "you've never seen any white cord", etc.
Then later, for Burke to ask, "what DID you find"?, to only be told "we're not talking to you"!, clearly they have been talking to him quite a bit, so why stop now?

I think that if detectives were going to make up something by saying they heard a child's voice on the phone (in the background) they would have made up something a bit more incriminating than "What did you find?"
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What ever they 'believe' they hear has to match the varying pitch of the noises. There is only so many groups of consonants that they can try match to make something seem reasonable.
Auto-suggestion then comes into play, once one person suggests a matching phrase, then everyone hears the same thing.
If there was a consensus on what was heard then there would be no argument. As it stands, some analysts hear voices and others do not.

[Wickerman]

Agree. I think the enhanced phone stuff is nonsense.
However, I think it's less risky to whisk him off to whites as soon as possible if he knew anything, to get him away from police.

I'm pretty sure I read that Fleet White said that he suggested taking Burke away with him to play with his kids, John just agreed.

[louisa]

I'm pretty sure I read that Fleet White said that he suggested taking Burke away with him to play with his kids, John just agreed.

It was probably what John told investigators.

I actually think that FW suspected that the R's had something to do with what happened to JBR.

First of all the Whites saw Patsy in the same clothes as the previous day when she told police she had got up that morning and found the note. They would have known that Patsy wouldn't have worn the same clothes two days running. Then they saw the note. It had 'Patsy' written all over it.

Then Fleet saw nothing when he opened the cellar door earlier that morning yet JR 'discovered' his daughter's body there later, after going straight to that room.

Much later when FW and John were asked to describe exactly where JBR's body had lain (in the cellar) they each described a different place. John showed a place closer to the door.

I haven't seen Fleet White's Deposition (I think it's still sealed) but these letters are quite revealing. The Whites wanted the Ramseys to go to trial and were frustrated by the delays.

http://extras.denverpost.com/news/whiteltr.htm

Fleet White - "We must be mindful, however, of the first cause of the investigation's failure - the refusal of John and Patsy Ramsey to cooperate fully and genuinely with those offlcially charged with the responsibilty of investigating the death of their daughter, JonBenet."


And as for BR's voice being heard on the tape, it's entirely possible, as BR himself stated that he was up and not in bed asleep, as his parents told the police.

The Whites were loyal to their old friends and probably knew a lot more than they wished to. If Burke had let slip anything while he was staying with them then I think the Whites would have kept shtum about that as well.

The Ramseys didn't deserve their loyalty though.


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[Abby Normal]

I'm pretty sure I read that Fleet White said that he suggested taking Burke away with him to play with his kids, John just agreed.

Yeah. John "just agreed" to a lot of stuff. Including lawyering up day one, canceling there flight out of dodge, etc. etc.

What is he a puppet? C'mon. What a bunch of crap.

He was an executive. You know. Being in charge, making decisions.
It's a cop out IMHO.