This Is The Zodiac Speaking.

[Filby]

I just finished the Netflix series - thanks to Herlock for mentioning it. Spoiler here, so read at your own desire: Allen as the Z was especially convincing. But I am easily convinced. So I watched with skepticism best I could as Jeff suggested:

For me, the Seawater family relationship was a strange situation at first, and possibly became a more fluid situation through the active years of Z. The fact all three confirmed they were at the murder locations on these "trips" with Allen - at one point on the same day (with blood present) was chilling. What I cannot come to terms is for their holidays, Allen had the rest of the entire state of California to travel within. Perhaps one location is forgivable as coincidental, but all? This was extremely difficult for me to be skeptical about. I believe Allen eventually came to use the children being a sick predator, and also their presence as a cover. The ciphers used during Allen's classroom days cannot be ignored. While not impossible, quite improbable such a method was used in basic high school education in the 60s, even in mathematics, algebras or science. Given the rest of the evidence against Allen, this is very convincing.

What i cannot come to terms with regarding the series was the convenient absence of handwriting forensics and that mismatch. The inconvenient mismatch of the police ID with Allen's likeness.

I'm an amateur - I wouldn't even call myself an amateur rather an interest I have with certain crimes ever since I began reading about Manson in the 60s. But at times certain aspects of a case I cannot abandon as evidence no matter how skeptical I am: For me this one includes the fact that Allen went so far to alienate himself as the Z, but continues to wear his Zodiac watch. If you really, honestly didn't want to be connected with the murder, wouldn't you perhaps put it away for good?

Looking at the videos, Allen was under severe mental duress. I am not a psychiatrist but I have been married to a psychiatrist for decades and transcribed probably 50 or 60 mental status exams for him. I believe Allen could have been suffering from some form of dissociative disorder. Dissociatives (sorry not to sound derogatory - even I have this a hint of this where I forget where I'm going when I drive) where we become "separate" from ourselves. Many have different ego states, may act like a child or even be an aggressor but it is basically two more more distinct personalities with marked discontinuity and sense of self and a related "other." Traumatic events can be blocked and symptoms are not caused by any type of stimulant, etc.

P.S. My other would be furious with me for commenting on such without an official clinical evaluation, I might add

Overall I'm 80% convinced, 20% not convinced and need to read further and hope, like the series stated, something or someone shows up.

[Filby]

I’m half way through the second episode of this new Netflix series based on the recollections of a family that knew Arthur Leigh Allen well. He’s always seemed a good suspect to me but I’m no expert on the case and I’ve read that many experts dismiss him. I once spent an hour or two reading stuff on a Zodiac forum and saw that Robert Graysmith came in for some serious criticism.

He also wrote a ripper book of course.

Thanks, Herlock, for the link. I just starting watching this. I'm no expert either, but old enough to remember the havoc and chaos it created in SF.

[Abby Normal]

Allen is the best suspect. But why do some experts (e.g., Tom Voight of the zodiackiller website) seemingly prefer Gaikowski?

because everyone wants there own, new and improved! pet suspect. especially to promote a website, a book, their ego etc. you see the phenomenon here lol

[Herlock Sholmes]

I finished the series last night and I have to say that I enjoyed it. The connection with the family and their ‘revelations’ are intriguing and I’m wondering what would be the odds of one of the cyphers being solved to reveal the name of the mother of the family who Allen was in a relationship with? Albeit one letter out. Possibly not as impressive as it appears on the surface? Although I’ve never studied the case closely it’s always seemed to me that Allen is a strong suspect although I accept of course that there are points against him. I’m assuming that they intend a second series where they track down relatives of the victims and compare DNA with that from the knife?

[kjab3112]

To be fair to Graysmith, he built his case based on discussions with Toschi who strongly believed Allan was Zodiac. However, other police involved say although good the evidence doesn’t fit (handwriting and fingerprints). Interestingly Allan was due to be questioned pre-charge just before his death following an eye-witness id and the film (Graysmith was an advisor) implies that Toschi agreed with the circumstantial but not conclusive evidence line.

[Barnaby]

Allen is the best suspect. But why do some experts (e.g., Tom Voight of the zodiackiller website) seemingly prefer Gaikowski?

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby;

I read Jeff's post. Was convinced it was not Allen. Then read your post. I'm now convinced it was. I def. have to read up.

thanks filby
i highly recommend you do. its a fascinating and crazy case... the twists and turns are unbeleiveable. other than the ripper, the greatest unsolved serial killer case.

[Filby]

hi jeff
the dna samples were poor and dna forensics science was primitive back then, same with the bloody palm print, or that could have been crime scene contamination. neither are as solid evidence as they are made to seem, quite the opposite. the voice stuff, cmon.

Allen owned a zodiac brand watch that had the same symbol logo that the zodiac used, he was a suspect at two seperate independent times during the case, and a surviving witness unhesitatingly ided him when he saw a photo of him.

he owned the same kind of type writer used in a letter, he lived in the immediate area, fit the profile of a avg joe lonely loser mad at the world type the zodiac clearly was. there is a ton of other evidence. it was Allen.

Hi Abby;

I read Jeff's post. Was convinced it was not Allen. Then read your post. I'm now convinced it was. I def. have to read up.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby,

You may be right, as I say, while I'm not convinced ALA was Zodiac I also would not be hugely surprised if it were proven he was. I'm hoping that one day technology catches up with Zodiac and something definitive is found.

- Jeff

thanks jeff me too!

[JeffHamm]

hi jeff
there is no comparison between iding someone via voice and photo. the victim said when seeing his photo..thats him thats the man who shot us. obviously there are a ton more issues with getting a reliable match with voice. i cant beleive were even debating this.

also the police sketch from the police who questioned the zodiac on the street after the stine killing is a dead ringer for allen.

the chances of a main suspect owning a zodiac watch (prior to tje killings no less) and the killer calling himself zodiac and using the same logo and it being a coincidence are practically zero.

the chances of a main suspect who police later find out was suspected earlier independently and questioned and it not be the killer are practically zero. its like if chapman was later found out to have been sighted, suspected and questioned in the nichols murder and him not be the ripper lol. of course it would be chapman the ripper.

allen was in the navy... the zodiac used cyphers like someone might know who was in the navy. Allen had navy boots like prints found at a crime scene.

allen owned the same type of typewriter that was used for a zodiac letter.

allen was a fired school teacher and convicted pedophile. the zodiac wrote about targeting school children.

two witnesses said allen pre confessed to committing these types of killings and calling himself the zodiac.

a neighbor said on the day of one of the zodiac stabbing murders allen came home with bloody knife and when he questioned about it, allen said he was killing chickens.

allen lived in the immediate area and knew it like the back of his hand.

allen fits the lonely loser thrill kill serial killer type to a t. He could be the twin in terms of background and personality of fellow loser, mad at the world thrill kill lovers lane serial killer son of sam david berkowitz.

i dont usually go much for the blame the incompetent police excuse, but this case wasnt solved, ie allen wasnt nailed, because of lack of evidence. this was the most mistake ridden serial killer investigation ive ever come across. and even still they had at least enough eyewitness and circumstantial evidence to at least make an arrest and prosecute.

and i hope your right re genetic geneology but this case wont be solved with dna for the reasons i mentioned.
anyway for me its already solved, no great mystery here. it was allen.

Hi Abby,

You may be right, as I say, while I'm not convinced ALA was Zodiac I also would not be hugely surprised if it were proven he was. I'm hoping that one day technology catches up with Zodiac and something definitive is found.

- Jeff

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby,

My issue is the best type of evidence, DNA and prints, that points away from ALA is always argued as being poor, but then, the evidence we know is poor is laid out as conclusive (like the watch - well, it's not like there is any evidence that Zodiac owned such a watch, so really, what is this evidence? Particularly since many would have owned such a watch and not be the Zodiac) Is the watch interesting, yes, conclusive, no. And when the more conclusive types of evidence point away even if one can question them, I tend to err on the side of "the case against him isn't great".

The voice stuff is at least two witnesses who say no, against one who says yes. And we know line up identifications have a false positive rate. So, again, I don't see the case against ALA as all that strong.

On the whole, I rather suspect ALA wasn't Zodiac, but not to the point where if it were conclusively proven he was that I would be "amazed". I would just be "oh, really? I didn't expect that, but ok".

My general view is that I think Zodiac is probably none of the suspects, but like JtR, is probably someone non-descript, never associated with the case in any serious way, but possibly is in the police files somewhere (although I'm not firm on that last point).

If they do have DNA from the stamps, I'm hoping they apply Genetic Genealogy to it. Trace down the stamp licker, and even if that is not the Zodiac, it will be someone close to them. But maybe I'm just too cynical and I should pick someone and just harden up. I'm sure I will one day. But today is not that day!

- Jeff

hi jeff
there is no comparison between iding someone via voice and photo. the victim said when seeing his photo..thats him thats the man who shot us. obviously there are a ton more issues with getting a reliable match with voice. i cant beleive were even debating this.

also the police sketch from the police who questioned the zodiac on the street after the stine killing is a dead ringer for allen.

the chances of a main suspect owning a zodiac watch (prior to tje killings no less) and the killer calling himself zodiac and using the same logo and it being a coincidence are practically zero.

the chances of a main suspect who police later find out was suspected earlier independently and questioned and it not be the killer are practically zero. its like if chapman was later found out to have been sighted, suspected and questioned in the nichols murder and him not be the ripper lol. of course it would be chapman the ripper.

allen was in the navy... the zodiac used cyphers like someone might know who was in the navy. Allen had navy boots like prints found at a crime scene.

allen owned the same type of typewriter that was used for a zodiac letter.

allen was a fired school teacher and convicted pedophile. the zodiac wrote about targeting school children.

two witnesses said allen pre confessed to committing these types of killings and calling himself the zodiac.

a neighbor said on the day of one of the zodiac stabbing murders allen came home with bloody knife and when he questioned about it, allen said he was killing chickens.

allen lived in the immediate area and knew it like the back of his hand.

allen fits the lonely loser thrill kill serial killer type to a t. He could be the twin in terms of background and personality of fellow loser, mad at the world thrill kill lovers lane serial killer son of sam david berkowitz.

i dont usually go much for the blame the incompetent police excuse, but this case wasnt solved, ie allen wasnt nailed, because of lack of evidence. this was the most mistake ridden serial killer investigation ive ever come across. and even still they had at least enough eyewitness and circumstantial evidence to at least make an arrest and prosecute.

and i hope your right re genetic geneology but this case wont be solved with dna for the reasons i mentioned.
anyway for me its already solved, no great mystery here. it was allen.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock,

I should know more about the Zodiac case than I do, but I admit, I'm not as up on it as I should be. That aside, I have looked at it at times, and like JtR, Zodiac information can be very suspect driven, and convincing cases are often presented by the same biases that creep in to JtR. While Arthur Leigh Allen was the original "final solution", and he was of interest to the police (so not a bad choice), I believe in the end there are some pretty hard hurdles to clear.

Some of the lesser ones, meaning they could be argued against, are that the fellow from the Lake Barryessa (sp?) stabbing case heard his voice and said that was not the voice he recalls. Also, the operator who took a call from the Zodiac (which he ends with a "Goood byyyyeee", also said the voice was not the same. That sort of evidence can be argued around, of course.

But, finger prints at the Stein Murder (the taxi cab driver), did not match him. I believe they tested his DNA against that found on Zodiac letters (one's they are sure came from the Zodiac), and again, no match.

There is a fellow who apparently went to the police saying that Allen told him things like "I will kill kids, call myself "zodiac", etc", but what is often omitted is that apparently this fellow had a grudge against Arthur L. A. and his information was only passed on well after all the details he mentions (to the cifers, and so forth), were in the public domain.

Basically, I think that while Arthur Leigh Allen was a good suspect, as time has passed and the investigation progressed, he ends up like many "good suspects", as "oh, not the right one".

There are questions that get raised about the finger prints, and the DNA, and so forth, and while yes, maybe, etc, in the end, as he got looked at more and more, the case did not get stronger, but rather, started having to defend itself. Personally, what I've noticed in most solved cases, is that once the right suspect comes into focus, everything starts falling into place rather than, one has to argue why it isn't coming into focus.

So, having not seen the current documentary, all I can say is that I advise "view with your most sceptical goggles on."

- Jeff

Hello Jeff,

Sceptical goggles at the ready.

[JeffHamm]

hi jeff
the dna samples were poor and dna forensics science was primitive back then, same with the bloody palm print, or that could have been crime scene contamination. neither are as solid evidence as they are made to seem, quite the opposite. the voice stuff, cmon.

Allen owned a zodiac brand watch that had the same symbol logo that the zodiac used, he was a suspect at two seperate independent times during the case, and a surviving witness unhesitatingly ided him when he saw a photo of him.

he owned the same kind of type writer used in a letter, he lived in the immediate area, fit the profile of a avg joe lonely loser mad at the world type the zodiac clearly was. there is a ton of other evidence. it was Allen.

Hi Abby,

My issue is the best type of evidence, DNA and prints, that points away from ALA is always argued as being poor, but then, the evidence we know is poor is laid out as conclusive (like the watch - well, it's not like there is any evidence that Zodiac owned such a watch, so really, what is this evidence? Particularly since many would have owned such a watch and not be the Zodiac) Is the watch interesting, yes, conclusive, no. And when the more conclusive types of evidence point away even if one can question them, I tend to err on the side of "the case against him isn't great".

The voice stuff is at least two witnesses who say no, against one who says yes. And we know line up identifications have a false positive rate. So, again, I don't see the case against ALA as all that strong.

On the whole, I rather suspect ALA wasn't Zodiac, but not to the point where if it were conclusively proven he was that I would be "amazed". I would just be "oh, really? I didn't expect that, but ok".

My general view is that I think Zodiac is probably none of the suspects, but like JtR, is probably someone non-descript, never associated with the case in any serious way, but possibly is in the police files somewhere (although I'm not firm on that last point).

If they do have DNA from the stamps, I'm hoping they apply Genetic Genealogy to it. Trace down the stamp licker, and even if that is not the Zodiac, it will be someone close to them. But maybe I'm just too cynical and I should pick someone and just harden up. I'm sure I will one day. But today is not that day!

- Jeff

[Abby Normal]

Hi Herlock,

I should know more about the Zodiac case than I do, but I admit, I'm not as up on it as I should be. That aside, I have looked at it at times, and like JtR, Zodiac information can be very suspect driven, and convincing cases are often presented by the same biases that creep in to JtR. While Arthur Leigh Allen was the original "final solution", and he was of interest to the police (so not a bad choice), I believe in the end there are some pretty hard hurdles to clear.

Some of the lesser ones, meaning they could be argued against, are that the fellow from the Lake Barryessa (sp?) stabbing case heard his voice and said that was not the voice he recalls. Also, the operator who took a call from the Zodiac (which he ends with a "Goood byyyyeee", also said the voice was not the same. That sort of evidence can be argued around, of course.

But, finger prints at the Stein Murder (the taxi cab driver), did not match him. I believe they tested his DNA against that found on Zodiac letters (one's they are sure came from the Zodiac), and again, no match.

There is a fellow who apparently went to the police saying that Allen told him things like "I will kill kids, call myself "zodiac", etc", but what is often omitted is that apparently this fellow had a grudge against Arthur L. A. and his information was only passed on well after all the details he mentions (to the cifers, and so forth), were in the public domain.

Basically, I think that while Arthur Leigh Allen was a good suspect, as time has passed and the investigation progressed, he ends up like many "good suspects", as "oh, not the right one".

There are questions that get raised about the finger prints, and the DNA, and so forth, and while yes, maybe, etc, in the end, as he got looked at more and more, the case did not get stronger, but rather, started having to defend itself. Personally, what I've noticed in most solved cases, is that once the right suspect comes into focus, everything starts falling into place rather than, one has to argue why it isn't coming into focus.

So, having not seen the current documentary, all I can say is that I advise "view with your most sceptical goggles on."

- Jeff

hi jeff
the dna samples were poor and dna forensics science was primitive back then, same with the bloody palm print, or that could have been crime scene contamination. neither are as solid evidence as they are made to seem, quite the opposite. the voice stuff, cmon.

Allen owned a zodiac brand watch that had the same symbol logo that the zodiac used, he was a suspect at two seperate independent times during the case, and a surviving witness unhesitatingly ided him when he saw a photo of him.

he owned the same kind of type writer used in a letter, he lived in the immediate area, fit the profile of a avg joe lonely loser mad at the world type the zodiac clearly was. there is a ton of other evidence. it was Allen.

[JeffHamm]

Ha ha! When I started typing, there were no replies. By the time I finished, two pipped me to the post! Hmmm, maybe I am verbose?

- Jeff