This Is The Zodiac Speaking.

[Abby Normal]

Yes these killers are not the same. Only in a few ways are they similar..
However when I consider the impact of these horrible crimes on the public, I find a number of intersections in the press coverage when I compare The Ripper, The Black Dahlia killer, and the Zodiac; the letters to the press, hoaxes, lots of confessors, way to many useless suspects, police wild goose chases.
The Ripper is the first sensationalized killer. The whole world hears of Jack because of the rise of tabloid Journalism,
A serial killer becomes a “product” for the newspaper. The headline story that features a Ripper, Black Dahlia or Zodiac sells papers. This is particularly true for the Black Dahlia story which was a front page headline in the Examiner for 31 days in a row. Creating fear and obsession for the public. Not all crimes or murders become “products” .
The Zodiac had no curiosity about the dead body. You are very right. But he did want to be as famous as The Ripper.
Your statement that the Zodiac had NO sexual overtones has me wondering what you mean. The Zodiac subdued the males then made sure the killed the female. Therefore there is more overkill delivered to the females. The males survived by luck. He expected the men to die by the wounds he delivered but he has his sexual rage focused on the female.
p.s. Zodiac used a knife at Lake Berryessa, not a gun; and wrote that he killed by knife on the Karmann Ghia door. Inspite of one might find on the internet a taxi is not a lovers lane.
I have not studied Berkowitz. And I noted your wise comments on the freeway snipers and profiling; I surmise we are on opposite coasts.

yes there seems to be more of a focus on the female. but he did kill a male, stine, in a seperate incident...no female involved. he also lived his fantasies through his letter writing but no sexual overtones to them. he mentions the people he kills being his slaves in heaven, yet no mention of sex or female sex slaves etc. he actually tells us in his letters hes a thrill killer, referencing the book The most dangerous game, where the protagonist hunts people with a gun. i dont see any "sexual rage" . rage against the oposite sex maybe, but nothing indicating sexual pleasure.

and im not sure about your points re the press and zodiac, black dahlia and the ripper. i see lots of of what you describe in in most serial killer cases... manson, bundy, green river, btk, dahmer, gsk,unibomber.. pretty much all of them become products as you call them. also, we dont know if black dahlia killer was a serial killer.
but i do agree the three you mention are some of tje most famous yes. although bundy and manson case is up there with them IMHO.

[scottnapa]

sorry your all wrong lol. zodiac and the ripper were totally different type serial killers with different motivations. tje zodiac was a thrill killer , sub category lovers lane killer. like berkowitz. allen was basically the twin of berkowitz in terms of background.. lonely loser mad at the world type delusional. and allen was the zodiac, no question imho.

the ripper was a post mortem serial killer, who was fascinated with what his knife could do to the female body. his attacks while not including sexual abuse, had strong sexual overtones. the zodiacs attacks had no sexual overtones. the zodiacs attacks had no post mortem element. the zodiacs weapon of choice was a gun, the rippers a knife. half the zodiacs motivation was letter writing, its questionable the ripper ever wrote letters. the zodiac killed both men and women, the ripper only women.

totally different animals.

Yes these killers are not the same. Only in a few ways are they similar..
However when I consider the impact of these horrible crimes on the public, I find a number of intersections in the press coverage when I compare The Ripper, The Black Dahlia killer, and the Zodiac; the letters to the press, hoaxes, lots of confessors, way to many useless suspects, police wild goose chases.
The Ripper is the first sensationalized killer. The whole world hears of Jack because of the rise of tabloid Journalism,
A serial killer becomes a “product” for the newspaper. The headline story that features a Ripper, Black Dahlia or Zodiac sells papers. This is particularly true for the Black Dahlia story which was a front page headline in the Examiner for 31 days in a row. Creating fear and obsession for the public. Not all crimes or murders become “products” .
The Zodiac had no curiosity about the dead body. You are very right. But he did want to be as famous as The Ripper.
Your statement that the Zodiac had NO sexual overtones has me wondering what you mean. The Zodiac subdued the males then made sure the killed the female. Therefore there is more overkill delivered to the females. The males survived by luck. He expected the men to die by the wounds he delivered but he has his sexual rage focused on the female.
p.s. Zodiac used a knife at Lake Berryessa, not a gun; and wrote that he killed by knife on the Karmann Ghia door. Inspite of one might find on the internet a taxi is not a lovers lane.
I have not studied Berkowitz. And I noted your wise comments on the freeway snipers and profiling; I surmise we are on opposite coasts.

[Lombro2]

Organized and disorganized are just a rebranding of psychopath and sociopath. It doesn't help that much, especially in a combo-killer who demonstrates more than one behavioral category. I don't doubt that Jack can fit or share many characteristics. If he had a good gun, he could well have been a lovers lane killer. The motives would be similar with the men as incidental.

He could be like a great comedian who likes to make jokes but doesn't do it to make an audience laugh. He's just entertaining himself. A real true blue prostitute killer is usually like that, I'll admit. But Jack's a combo.

[Abby Normal]

sorry your all wrong lol. zodiac and the ripper were totally different type serial killers with different motivations. tje zodiac was a thrill killer , sub category lovers lane killer. like berkowitz. allen was basically the twin of berkowitz in terms of background.. lonely loser mad at the world type delusional. and allen was the zodiac, no question imho.

the ripper was a post mortem serial killer, who was fascinated with what his knife could do to the female body. his attacks while not including sexual abuse, had strong sexual overtones. the zodiacs attacks had no sexual overtones. the zodiacs attacks had no post mortem element. the zodiacs weapon of choice was a gun, the rippers a knife. half the zodiacs motivation was letter writing, its questionable the ripper ever wrote letters. the zodiac killed both men and women, the ripper only women.

totally different animals.

[scottnapa]

Spectacle killers is a term new to me. Thank you. I will seek that out. I think the term applies a bit more to the Zodiac than to the Ripper. Certainly the citizens of England in 1889 were confounded by the mutilation of victims who were clearly strangers to the killer. They thought the damage was to upset the public. They thought organs were taken so they might be sold. They thought the madman kills in a frenzy. There were wrong. Understandable, given that there was nothing like this previously. The Zodiac had military background that is clear. Cyphers and comic books are interesting vectors for the persona he creates. He sent the codes to the SF Examiner,SF Chronicle and Vallejo Times Herald. With the first kills in Vallejo and writes the Vallejo newspaper suggests that town as the center of crime.He has a message for them. Be afraid. I think some care needs to be given to apply modern terms to historical crimes. I find fault with the FBI concept of Organized / /Disorganized to not work well with Ripper. Hiding the body in 1960 America is not the same as dropping a body in a Whitechapel back alley in 1890. Many "unfortunates" slept rough and died in the night. Albert Crow steps over Martha Labrum without a thought if she is alive or dead. The Douglas conclusion that the Ripper was lucky not smart. I think he is both. Of course serial killers are by and large not smarter than the population at large but they practice to make sure they ready for the moment. The connection between the Zodiac and the Ripper evolves if a person believes the From Hell letter is real. Regardless I think the Ripper is more successful in realizing his fantasies.
Two questions that connect The Ripper, The Zodiac and The Black Dahlia as mysteries:. When did they start? Why did they stop?

[Lombro2]

The Ripper and Zodiac are "Spectacle Killers". That's a completely different category and is much better than "serial killer" which is so general it tells you very little. Spectacle Killers are closer to spree or mass murderers and terrorists. So there is a more specific profile.

Patricia Cornwell was the first to coin that term, although it was only in fiction. There still seems to be reticence about using the term in non-fiction the same way as mass murderer.

[The Rookie Detective]

I am late to the party, but i have something to share. There are some interesting parallels between the Ripper and the Zodiac
The Zodiac case is fascinating for a number of very good reasons. It does connect with Jack the Ripper and with The Black Dahlia Murder, because in all three cases, the killer corresponded with the press which created quite a bit of anxiety in the public because every day the headline was about a killer on the loose
There is no doubt in my mind that the Ripper case played a role in the decision by the the Zodiac killer and the Black Dahlia Avenger to “go public” based on the desire to have the impact and notoriety that Jack the Ripper acquired . (regardless of your opinion on whether the ripper letters are real or fake, the public impression of Jack the Ripper is what matters for this comparison.)

I have lived in Napa for 28 years. I have visited the Lake Berryessa site. It is isolated. The couple chose a spot invisible from the road for privacy. This killing is a significant departure for the killer. The Berressa killing resembles the prior murders in that he attacks a couple disables the male and then kills the woman.

What is different? Lake Berryessa is the Zodiac’s only daytime attack. , He attacks a couple who are a picnic date. This time only, the killer wears a hooded self designed Zodiac costume. Only to realize this makes him easy to spot and his design makes him look like a target. The costume offers a strong indicator of the killer’s fantasy elements as it resembles a comic book character. This is his only knife attack and he is not good at it. Cecelia Shepard is struggling against her ropes, so she writhes to loosen them and the Zodiac keeps stabbing rib bones when he manages to hit her chest and stabs her arms when he misses. It is sloppy and tiresome.

Things went better the other times when he used a gun. Pulling a trigger is fast and simple. From this point on the Zodiac decelerates. ( in in contrast to Jack the Ripper, whose violent actions accelerates overtime and the Ripper ratchets up his fantasy and his mutilation, The Zodiac is ratcheting down. He kills a cab driver in the city, Paul Stein, a single man not a couple. The Zodiac is alost caught andhe is forever spooked by that and as far as we know did not kill again.
He mails the bloody shirt to the newspaper. Is this another Jack the Ripper inspired act? Sending proof in the mail. A shirt not a kidney


I met a man who when he was a boy of 8 years, was at that car wash that night.
I dated a girl who went to that Catholic school across the street from the pay phone. So every day in the school yard she feels the presence of the killer at that pay phone. What is a child to think when the killer says her will kill children on a school bus?

Arthur Allen is a spectacular suspect. Indeed there are many good suspects in the Zodiac case.
I wish it was Arthur Allen. But that would involve him having an accomplice.

For the Black Dahlia there are three ok suspects, but Hodel, Dillon and Bailey are innocent.

For Jack the Ripper, well, sadly, there are 15ish mediocre suspects.

Excellent post and lots to consider.


The fantasy element certainly stands out in the Zodiac case and the killer was driven by a desire for infamy and notoriety.

It speaks of a man who wanted to make a statement just for the sake of being seen.

That denotes either a young man wanting to make his mark, perhaps late teens to early twenties, a loner and someone who was always watching from the outside in; or a man going through a mid-life crisis; in his forties and finally having the freedom to express his pent up rage and desire. A man who wasn't able to express himself as a young man, someone with a dominant parent who repressed his inner needs.


Without the press fuelling the Zodiac, he would have never been recognised for his efforts in trying to be seen.

The daytime attack in which he wore a homemade costume, was done deliberately as a means to grab attention. He let one of his victims live because he needed a messenger.

You can't spread the message if you don't have a messenger.

The cab driver killing was impulsive and likely unplanned. Perhaps the cab driver spoke of the killings in general conversation; as cab drivers often do, and there was perhaps a moment of silence when the driver and killer had that moment of realisation when the driver suddenly realised the Zodiac was in his car. The killer had no choice to kill him and the deescalation afterwards speaks of a man whose fantasy had been unexpectedly ruined by an impromptu murder.

Everything the Zodiac did was deliberate, but the murder of the cab driver was a mistake and this impacted on his fantasy to a point whereby he lost that drive to continue as he had been doing.

The Zodiac killed because he wanted to be seen as an enigma.

But after killing the driver, he was perceived as just another murderer and nothing special.

All the hard work he had done had been tarnished.

He was just another number and that must have really got to him.

[scottnapa]

I am late to the party, but i have something to share. There are some interesting parallels between the Ripper and the Zodiac
The Zodiac case is fascinating for a number of very good reasons. It does connect with Jack the Ripper and with The Black Dahlia Murder, because in all three cases, the killer corresponded with the press which created quite a bit of anxiety in the public because every day the headline was about a killer on the loose
There is no doubt in my mind that the Ripper case played a role in the decision by the the Zodiac killer and the Black Dahlia Avenger to “go public” based on the desire to have the impact and notoriety that Jack the Ripper acquired . (regardless of your opinion on whether the ripper letters are real or fake, the public impression of Jack the Ripper is what matters for this comparison.)

I have lived in Napa for 28 years. I have visited the Lake Berryessa site. It is isolated. The couple chose a spot invisible from the road for privacy. This killing is a significant departure for the killer. The Berressa killing resembles the prior murders in that he attacks a couple disables the male and then kills the woman.

What is different? Lake Berryessa is the Zodiac’s only daytime attack. , He attacks a couple who are a picnic date. This time only, the killer wears a hooded self designed Zodiac costume. Only to realize this makes him easy to spot and his design makes him look like a target. The costume offers a strong indicator of the killer’s fantasy elements as it resembles a comic book character. This is his only knife attack and he is not good at it. Cecelia Shepard is struggling against her ropes, so she writhes to loosen them and the Zodiac keeps stabbing rib bones when he manages to hit her chest and stabs her arms when he misses. It is sloppy and tiresome.

Things went better the other times when he used a gun. Pulling a trigger is fast and simple. From this point on the Zodiac decelerates. ( in in contrast to Jack the Ripper, whose violent actions accelerates overtime and the Ripper ratchets up his fantasy and his mutilation, The Zodiac is ratcheting down. He kills a cab driver in the city, Paul Stein, a single man not a couple. The Zodiac is alost caught andhe is forever spooked by that and as far as we know did not kill again.
He mails the bloody shirt to the newspaper. Is this another Jack the Ripper inspired act? Sending proof in the mail. A shirt not a kidney


I met a man who when he was a boy of 8 years, was at that car wash that night.
I dated a girl who went to that Catholic school across the street from the pay phone. So every day in the school yard she feels the presence of the killer at that pay phone. What is a child to think when the killer says her will kill children on a school bus?

Arthur Allen is a spectacular suspect. Indeed there are many good suspects in the Zodiac case.
I wish it was Arthur Allen. But that would involve him having an accomplice.

For the Black Dahlia there are three ok suspects, but Hodel, Dillon and Bailey are innocent.

For Jack the Ripper, well, sadly, there are 15ish mediocre suspects.

[Filby]

I just finished the Netflix series - thanks to Herlock for mentioning it. Spoiler here, so read at your own desire: Allen as the Z was especially convincing. But I am easily convinced. So I watched with skepticism best I could as Jeff suggested:

For me, the Seawater family relationship was a strange situation at first, and possibly became a more fluid situation through the active years of Z. The fact all three confirmed they were at the murder locations on these "trips" with Allen - at one point on the same day (with blood present) was chilling. What I cannot come to terms is for their holidays, Allen had the rest of the entire state of California to travel within. Perhaps one location is forgivable as coincidental, but all? This was extremely difficult for me to be skeptical about. I believe Allen eventually came to use the children being a sick predator, and also their presence as a cover. The ciphers used during Allen's classroom days cannot be ignored. While not impossible, quite improbable such a method was used in basic high school education in the 60s, even in mathematics, algebras or science. Given the rest of the evidence against Allen, this is very convincing.

What i cannot come to terms with regarding the series was the convenient absence of handwriting forensics and that mismatch. The inconvenient mismatch of the police ID with Allen's likeness.

I'm an amateur - I wouldn't even call myself an amateur rather an interest I have with certain crimes ever since I began reading about Manson in the 60s. But at times certain aspects of a case I cannot abandon as evidence no matter how skeptical I am: For me this one includes the fact that Allen went so far to alienate himself as the Z, but continues to wear his Zodiac watch. If you really, honestly didn't want to be connected with the murder, wouldn't you perhaps put it away for good?

Looking at the videos, Allen was under severe mental duress. I am not a psychiatrist but I have been married to a psychiatrist for decades and transcribed probably 50 or 60 mental status exams for him. I believe Allen could have been suffering from some form of dissociative disorder. Dissociatives (sorry not to sound derogatory - even I have this a hint of this where I forget where I'm going when I drive) where we become "separate" from ourselves. Many have different ego states, may act like a child or even be an aggressor but it is basically two more more distinct personalities with marked discontinuity and sense of self and a related "other." Traumatic events can be blocked and symptoms are not caused by any type of stimulant, etc.

P.S. My other would be furious with me for commenting on such without an official clinical evaluation, I might add

Overall I'm 80% convinced, 20% not convinced and need to read further and hope, like the series stated, something or someone shows up.

[Filby]

I’m half way through the second episode of this new Netflix series based on the recollections of a family that knew Arthur Leigh Allen well. He’s always seemed a good suspect to me but I’m no expert on the case and I’ve read that many experts dismiss him. I once spent an hour or two reading stuff on a Zodiac forum and saw that Robert Graysmith came in for some serious criticism.

He also wrote a ripper book of course.

Thanks, Herlock, for the link. I just starting watching this. I'm no expert either, but old enough to remember the havoc and chaos it created in SF.

[Abby Normal]

Allen is the best suspect. But why do some experts (e.g., Tom Voight of the zodiackiller website) seemingly prefer Gaikowski?

because everyone wants there own, new and improved! pet suspect. especially to promote a website, a book, their ego etc. you see the phenomenon here lol

[Herlock Sholmes]

I finished the series last night and I have to say that I enjoyed it. The connection with the family and their ‘revelations’ are intriguing and I’m wondering what would be the odds of one of the cyphers being solved to reveal the name of the mother of the family who Allen was in a relationship with? Albeit one letter out. Possibly not as impressive as it appears on the surface? Although I’ve never studied the case closely it’s always seemed to me that Allen is a strong suspect although I accept of course that there are points against him. I’m assuming that they intend a second series where they track down relatives of the victims and compare DNA with that from the knife?

[kjab3112]

To be fair to Graysmith, he built his case based on discussions with Toschi who strongly believed Allan was Zodiac. However, other police involved say although good the evidence doesn’t fit (handwriting and fingerprints). Interestingly Allan was due to be questioned pre-charge just before his death following an eye-witness id and the film (Graysmith was an advisor) implies that Toschi agreed with the circumstantial but not conclusive evidence line.

[Barnaby]

Allen is the best suspect. But why do some experts (e.g., Tom Voight of the zodiackiller website) seemingly prefer Gaikowski?

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby;

I read Jeff's post. Was convinced it was not Allen. Then read your post. I'm now convinced it was. I def. have to read up.

thanks filby
i highly recommend you do. its a fascinating and crazy case... the twists and turns are unbeleiveable. other than the ripper, the greatest unsolved serial killer case.