Bible John (General Discussion)

[cobalt]

NW,

The possible Castlemilk link to the Pat Docker murder caught my eye as well. I don't believe the killer had a car since he could have 'tried it on' inside there instead of halfway up a lane. He certainly seemed to be heading in a southerly direction when depositing the handbag (and probably the clothing) and Castlemilk was around 2 miles (?) away to the south east (?)

Whoever BJ was he had to lie down and sleep somewhere in the city of Glasgow after the crime. You can't go knocking up friends of relatives at around 2am so he must have either lived in the city or had a key to an apartment/garage lock up somewhere.

[New Waterloo]

I do agree Cobalt that BJ having a car doesn't seem to fit and sort of disrupts the similarity between Pat and Helens murders but in the case of Pat Docker if we assume that her murderer met her in Barrowlands and just didn't come across her near her home, then they must have travelled home somehow, a night bus perhaps or taxi. I don't think there is much evidence of how they travelled. After the murder surely witnesses, taxi drivers, bus drivers would have reported something.

Perhaps they did and statements exist somewhere and I am just not aware

NW

[cobalt]

I've read that the police were unable to locate any witnesses that remembered seeing Pat Docker returning home by bus. But there was the problem of knowing where Pat Docker would have boarded a bus or hailed a taxi since the police originally believed she had been dancing at The Majestic ballroom, not the Barrowland.

Whatever, her killer was obviously heading somewhere after the crime and it would be helpful if we knew where that was likely to be.

[New Waterloo]

Been listening to Jean (well the actor) on the Pod cast again. There is a bit of a contradiction. She states that when she heard of Helens murder she immediately thought it could have been Helens husband. Saying something like she didn't ' think BJ would be capable or that sort (cant remember exact words). This seems a bit odd as she had left Helen in the Taxi with BJ.

The contradiction is that although she says BJ was very quiet and a 'mammie's boy' he had a very vocal and heated argument with the manager of the club over the cigarette machine and that the manager was a very tough individual but BJ strongly confronted him and somewhat belittled him. (only a short time before the taxi ride)

In the Taxi Jean says BJ was quiet and had to be encouraged to say anything. Perhaps while he was in the taxi he was planning the murder. Thinking it through.

I wonder if he thought killing the victims close to their homes distances the crime from the Barrowlands in some sort of naïve thinking that the police would not make the Barrowlands connection. Sounds stupid but feasible. It is a lottery though, as his style (if it is one ) would mean he could have ended up miles and miles from his own home address.

Sorry all if my posts are a bit disjointed but I find it hard to be methodical and the whole thing seems odd

Thinking about the reef knot (was that Helens murder) Some seem to suggest its a difficult knot. Many use this knot without realizing it. My father was in the Navy and explained to me 'left over right, right over left. There is a problem using this, as once the knot is complete you cannot tighten it any further as far as I recall. Tricky if its not tight enough to say strangle someone. I would imagine the killer did the left over right bit. pulled it tight until the deed was done then locked the knot with the right over left.

Just thoughts again

NW

[Herlock Sholmes]

How often do we say or think “what are the chances of that?” I was thinking last night about Templeman and how I intend to re-read the book as soon as I get the chance. Remember….the author looks back into the McInnes family tree looking for a ‘Templeton’ and finds one (I think) 7 generations back. Maybe she didn’t use the exact words but the gist was “what are the chances of that?” I haven’t a clue so I’m not in a position to make a proper judgment on how unlikely this was. Then she looked at the John Templeman’s to find one that might have matched the criteria gleaned from what was said or hinted at in the taxi ride like him having one sibling and being fostered. This narrowed it down to the John Templeman that’s the subject of her book.

Then she tracks the guy down using social media and finds a photograph of him and he looks the absolute double of the guy in the Lennox Patterson picture.

Really…what are the chances of that?



A question for Barn - when did you know Templeman? Do you know if anyone ever mentioned that he looked like the picture or did he look different when you knew him? These things are often joked about at work. I used to work with a guy from Sunderland who sounded just like Wearside Jack. He got tired of everyone asking him to say “I’m Jack…”

[barnflatwyngarde]

How often do we say or think “what are the chances of that?” I was thinking last night about Templeman and how I intend to re-read the book as soon as I get the chance. Remember….the author looks back into the McInnes family tree looking for a ‘Templeton’ and finds one (I think) 7 generations back. Maybe she didn’t use the exact words but the gist was “what are the chances of that?” I haven’t a clue so I’m not in a position to make a proper judgment on how unlikely this was. Then she looked at the John Templeman’s to find one that might have matched the criteria gleaned from what was said or hinted at in the taxi ride like him having one sibling and being fostered. This narrowed it down to the John Templeman that’s the subject of her book.

Then she tracks the guy down using social media and finds a photograph of him and he looks the absolute double of the guy in the Lennox Patterson picture.

Really…what are the chances of that?



A question for Barn - when did you know Templeman? Do you know if anyone ever mentioned that he looked like the picture or did he look different when you knew him? These things are often joked about at work. I used to work with a guy from Sunderland who sounded just like Wearside Jack. He got tired of everyone asking him to say “I’m Jack…”

Hi Herlock, I knew John Templeton for about 10 years when I was based in the Mitchell Library, and he was working as an Attendant in the Mitchell.
Prior to that he apparently spent some time working in the community libraries.

My position was Area Manager, and I spent about six years managing the West Area.
This covered libraries from the city centre all the way out to Drumchapel, and covered Hillhead and maryhill libraries among others.

I can't honestly remember if he worked in the West Area, but if he did then he probably worked in one of my libraries.
We tried to put people within easy travelling distance of their home, so if he was living in Melrose Gardens at the time, which I think he was, then he would probably be based in the West Area.

Re whether Templeton looked like any of the photo-fits, I attach a photo of him in what looks like his Attendant's uniform.
All Attendant's had uniforms but very few of them wore the full uniform of trousers, jacket and tie.

I also attach a copy of the aged photo-fit of the suspect.

Apologies, for some reason I can't seem to get them side by side.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock, I knew John Templeton for about 10 years when I was based in the Mitchell Library, and he was working as an Attendant in the Mitchell.
Prior to that he apparently spent some time working in the community libraries.

My position was Area Manager, and I spent about six years managing the West Area.
This covered libraries from the city centre all the way out to Drumchapel, and covered Hillhead and maryhill libraries among others.

I can't honestly remember if he worked in the West Area, but if he did then he probably worked in one of my libraries.
We tried to put people within easy travelling distance of their home, so if he was living in Melrose Gardens at the time, which I think he was, then he would probably be based in the West Area.

Re whether Templeton looked like any of the photo-fits, I attach a photo of him in what looks like his Attendant's uniform.
All Attendant's had uniforms but very few of them wore the full uniform of trousers, jacket and tie.

I also attach a copy of the aged photo-fit of the suspect.

Apologies, for some reason I can't seem to get them side by side.

Thanks Barn,

It looks a decent likeness to me. I’d certainly be interested to hear of any further research on Templeman if Bavin-Mizzi does continue.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I don’t know why I keep writing Templeman instead of Templeton? I’ve only just noticed that I’ve been doing it.

[barnflatwyngarde]

I don’t know why I keep writing Templeman instead of Templeton? I’ve only just noticed that I’ve been doing it.

It's fine Horlick, I'm sure lots of folk get the names mixed up.

[cobalt]

Which Jeannie Langford did herself. She muddled up names and a criminal couch expert has now feasted on that and created a new suspect. Which sells well to a limited audience.

We are no further forward than we were when I was a paperboy in 1969.

[Herlock Sholmes]

It's fine Horlick, I'm sure lots of folk get the names mixed up.

[New Waterloo]

I think the images do look very close Could I ask Barnflat please.

On the photo is that an anchor on the left pocket of his blazer/jacket. Just wondered if he was in the Navy or is that a library jacket

Thank you

NW

[barnflatwyngarde]

I think the images do look very close Could I ask Barnflat please.

On the photo is that an anchor on the left pocket of his blazer/jacket. Just wondered if he was in the Navy or is that a library jacket

Thank you

NW

HI NW, yes I think it is the council's official crest.
The crest went through several changes over the years.

All Attendant's jackets had the crest on them.

[Darryl Kenyon]

Patricia was found naked apart from her shoe/shoes. Why would the killer take her clothes away ? Well, just a long shot here but suppose her murderer gave Patricia a Moylan's card, or perhaps even his name and address on a scrap of paper . He could have searched for it afterwards, not finding it in the dark in his blind panic so stripped Patricia instead and took her handbag, clothes and legged it . If he did give Patricia a Moylan's card as the same possibly with Helen. He may have been disturbed before he could look for said evidence. The connection was made and the murders stopped. As we know now, once serial killers are interviewed/suspected they can and do stop killing for at least a while.

Sutcliffe realised the significance of the new five pound note he left with a victim and went back to search for it.

I also believe Bible John did not plan any of his murders but when the poor victims refused his sexual advances his anger overtook every rational thought he may have had.
Perhaps the killer regularly [ whoever he was ], beat his wife/partner if they refused sex with him and they were so scared of said individual that they indeed gave him an alibi when interviewed .
Also the killer may lie in the police archives somewhere. Someone who was accused of rape but the charges dropped. Would, if there are any rape victims out there who were also married press charges ?
Maybe an appeal so long after the events if there are any rape victims out there and still alive might bring a name forward.

One last point didn't John Mcinnes wife say she was left traumatized by her marriage to him ?

Regards Darryl

[New Waterloo]

Very thoughtful comments Darryl and a very good suggestion as to why he removed her clothes. Although I do have a little difficulty with the idea. Leaving the victim naked seems so strange to me but I don't think its unusual. Maybe its part of a dehumanizing sort of thing Or extreme hatred of women or power thing and perhaps there is someone with knowledge of human behaviors/psychology who could help explain.

I may be wrong but didn't the Ipswich murderer Stephen Wright leave his victims naked and I recall Natalie Pearman a young girl murdered in Norwich some years ago was I believe left naked.

I cant get my head round it but your explanation in Patricia's case seems very feasible.

I have has another listen to the McInnes section of the Podcast and there is so much contradiction with McInnes's personality and his description. I will have to listen again but I think his army report describes him as a heavy well built man a bit lazy (cant recall exact words) where a neighbour describes him as very very thin.

Yes you are correct. His wife apparently said she was traumatized by him and it took her some 20 years to get over it!

He seems a good bet to me but there is very much more to this case than meets the eye.

NW