Bible John (General Discussion)

[Herlock Sholmes]

The references to Helen Puttock being amenable to romantic approaches came from police sources. These would presumably have emerged from interviews of regular patrons at the Barrowland Ballroom. I read somewhere (apologies for being vague) that two persons claimed they had been intimate with Helen prior to her death.

However I am in full agreement with ms diddles on Helen and Jeannie's likely assessment of BJ, one which precluded lustful entanglement. A paid taxi home would have been the real prize. Helen Puttock seems to have been confident in her ability to handle such situations and no doubt was, like many Glasgow women, well skilled in the art of the 'brush off.' Glasgow etiquette of that era included the phrase: 'Drap deid, ya scunner!'

The HS theory that has Helen disembarking from the taxi in South Street and then being pursued to Earl Street makes more sense than her running away from nearer her apartment. But William Hannah was taken by police to recreate his route and drop off point the following morning so the location where Helen left the cab must be well established. That location is always given as Earl Street, although no one seems to have pin pointed exactly where.

I’ve just listened to part 5 of the podcast again checking what the police had said the taxi route was, according to Hannah. I then followed it on Google Earth.

They went along Kelso Street then left into Dumbarton Road and then left into Burnham Road then left into South Street. Driving along South Street they passed Balmoral Street which would have taken them straight to Helen’s tenement. The taxi continued and then turned into Harland Street where he stopped to ask his passengers for directions as he was new to the job. They would have carried on under the bridge and left into Earl Street. Then Helen asked him to stop at ‘a part about 10 yards beyond Earl Place which is just west of 95 Earl Street.’

So it looks to me like their taxi stopped to the right of number 95 if you faced it and a very few yards along (as Earl Place is opposite number 95). There’s no way of which side of the road though.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Question - the police said of number 95 Earl Street - ‘the back court grass was covered.’

Covered with what?

[cobalt]

Thanks for clarifying the taxi route, HS. It seems the driver missed his turn from South Street into Balmoral Street and then had to use Harland Street as his next option into Earl Street. Perhaps a fateful error since as you noted, had the taxi driven up Balmoral Street that pretty much took Helen Puttock to her doorstep. Then again, since the taxi was only 100 yards from Helen's flat, it's not clear why she decided to get out at that point.

So if Helen was dropped off close to where she was later found at number 95, that probably rules out the possible sighting by another taxi driver in South Street.

Being so close to home and on her own patch, I doubt Helen would have felt as vulnerable as it transpired out she was. I wonder if she bluffed that number 95 was her actual flat in order to shake off BJ, aware that she might use the back close as a direct route to reach home. Given the lack of commotion it seems Helen was grabbed swiftly from behind as she entered the back court.

Regards the back court grass being 'covered' I would guess maybe cinders or gravel to prevent slipping while hanging out laundry when the grass was wet underfoot?

[Herlock Sholmes]

I agree that this appears to rule out MacDonald’s ‘sighting’ in South Street. It looks like the police didn’t bother questioning him again because they had spoken to Alexander Hannah which threw huge doubt on his statement. So was MacDonald looking for 5 minutes of fame or did he genuinely see a woman in a black and white ocelot pattern-type coat but it wasn’t Helen? Either way, his statement looks close to impossible.

I was wondering about Helen’s intention when going home in the taxi? The fact that they passed Balmoral Street where she could have got out and taken the short walk home made me wonder if she was already considering sex or even just a ‘kiss and cuddle’? But from the transcript of Audrey Gillian’s interview with Jean, Helen had been asked by Jean why she was being dropped home by this man when her husband might have seen her? Helen responded that she was ok because Jean would have been there too with the implication being that she clearly couldn’t have been ‘up to anything’ when Jean was present. So, if true, Helen expected to get dropped off first until John decided that Jean needed to be out of the picture. Perhaps a slightly cynical reading of this might be that Helen might have known in advance that she would be alone with John after Jean had been dropped off first and Jean posthumously tried to protect her sisters reputation as a married woman by inventing the story of John deciding to drop her off first?

On a point that you made in an earlier post - Jean said that she got dropped off a distance from her house because some ‘intuition’ told her that she didn’t want John knowing where she lived. It does seem strange though that she would then allow her sister to go alone with this guy that she clearly didn’t like or trust. She said that she knew that Helen could take care of herself which seems a bit of a casual attitude? If I was out with my sister and I was so suspicious of this guy that I’d conceal my address I wouldn’t have allowed my sister to be alone with him. Then again, perhaps Jean just found him an annoying, creepy type as opposed to a dangerous one. Either way I can only imagine Jean’s feelings of guilt over the years?

So, if Helen was expecting to be dropped of first until John’s change of plan you might have thought that she’d had at least an inkling that John was expecting ‘something’ but….perhaps from John’s previous behaviour and demeanor she perhaps genuinely thought that he was genuinely the gentleman who just wanted to spend a little more time with her and so she expected of a boring chat to endure before going home?

It’s also worth remembering that Alexander Hannah was new to the job and had to stop the taxi and ask his passengers for directions. It’s also worth noting that he did this in Harland Street which is the next left turning off South Street after Balmoral Street so maybe it was simply a driver error that they passed it? Wrong left turning.

My apologies to all for this slightly rambling post but there’s a lot that we have no explanation for. So if they were dropped off roughly where I said with the driver, according to George Puttock when he spoke to him, saying that it looked as if they were having a disagreement, why did she go away from her home and into number 95? I think that Cobalt’s suggestion appears the likeliest. Helen had told John that number 95 was her home and, expecting him to stay in the cab, she headed toward it but he jumped out and caught up with her. She tried to shake him off, perhaps with talk of her husband, but John wasn’t having it so he followed her inside; perhaps gambling on her not calling out because she’d come home alone with a strange man in tow. Perhaps she ran through the close to the bank but he caught up with her and brought her back, perhaps saying that he just wanted to talk? So with a combination of a) not wanting to draw attention to her return with a strange man, and b) that he seemed a bit of a creep but not dangerous, she might have thought it wiser just to try and talk her way out of the situation? Perhaps by arranging to meet him again (just to be rid of him)? Another perhaps is that he then showed that he wanted sex but she told him that she was on her period so he strangled her.

To be honest…I’m quite happy with the above explanations although I’m certainly not saying that explained exactly what happened.

[New Waterloo]

Hi Herlock, barnflat and others I do think think there is still some mileage left in the tie description. Yes Jean may well have seen the tie;

On page 161 of "Power in the Blood" by Donald Simpson is the passage:
"Then there was the tie that ‘Bible John’ had been wearing that night; Jeannie described it in detail. ‘It was a dark blue tie with a thin red stripe with a small white motif, a military or university tie.” Whereas McInnes had been described as habitually wearing a military tie — his Scots Guards tie — which has a broad red and blue stripe."

A quick search on Google suggests this is not clear cut at all. I am pretty poor at links and things so no photo but there is a tie described as Scots Guards in images which yes has broad red stripes but also small light golden crests. I think if BJ was wearing a suit and Jean wasn't consciously trying to remember the tie that evening it seems feasible that she would be a little bit out with her description. Also although the tie I have seen has multiple crests you wouldnt see them all

NW

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock, barnflat and others I do think think there is still some mileage left in the tie description. Yes Jean may well have seen the tie;

On page 161 of "Power in the Blood" by Donald Simpson is the passage:
"Then there was the tie that ‘Bible John’ had been wearing that night; Jeannie described it in detail. ‘It was a dark blue tie with a thin red stripe with a small white motif, a military or university tie.” Whereas McInnes had been described as habitually wearing a military tie — his Scots Guards tie — which has a broad red and blue stripe."

A quick search on Google suggests this is not clear cut at all. I am pretty poor at links and things so no photo but there is a tie described as Scots Guards in images which yes has broad red stripes but also small light golden crests. I think if BJ was wearing a suit and Jean wasn't consciously trying to remember the tie that evening it seems feasible that she would be a little bit out with her description. Also although the tie I have seen has multiple crests you wouldnt see them all

NW

I’d seen that one NW. Here it is..

https://www.google.com/search?q=scots+guards+tie&rlz=1C9BKJA_enGB704GB704&oq=scots+guard&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUqDggAEEUYJxg7GIAEGIoFMg4IABBFGCcYOxiABBiKBTIGCAEQRRg5MgYIAhBFGDwyBggDEEUYPDIHCAQQABiABDIHCAUQABiABDIHCAYQABiABDIHCAcQABiABDIHCAgQABiABDIHCAkQABiABNIBCDQyOTNqMGo3qAIKsAIB4gMEGAEgXw&hl=en-GB&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8#vhid=n6x5yeuiyyHH5M&vssid=l

[cobalt]

The taxi route looks like driver error to me, which he managed to rectify at the next available turning. Driving at night means you can't pick out landmarks so easily and Helen herself might not have noticed the error straight away. As for Helen exiting 100 yards from her home, we can but guess. I know passengers sometimes become anxious when they see the meter ticking over and ask to be dropped off a little early to save money. Maybe BJ, who comes across as a bit tight fisted, was moaning about the fare and Helen decided to get out early.

The regimental tie is an interesting detail: we would really need to know from McInnes' associates if that was a feature of his being dressed up for a night out. Was McInnes actually seen wearing it in the late 1960s, almost a decade after he had left the Scots Guards? There was no great cachet in wearing military insignia at that time, in fact popular culture often satirised the concept of military service. A regimental tie seems an odd choice for a night out at the Barrowland, although it's possible McInnes had attended the furniture show earlier in the day. Did any witnesses who saw the man with Jemima McDonald, the second victim, mention such a tie?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Another interesting point is that it looks like BJ had to get the money for the taxi from Helen. Hannah said that he saw her look into her bag and give the guy some money which he handed over to him as payment - £1 6d.

[Ms Diddles]

Another interesting point is that it looks like BJ had to get the money for the taxi from Helen. Hannah said that he saw her look into her bag and give the guy some money which he handed over to him as payment - £1 6d.

Yes, IIRC that was after BJ had agreed to pay for the taxi when they were leaving the Barrowlands.

I wonder if this is what lead to the altercation which Hannah said he saw.

It's quite a long way from the Barrowlands to Kelso St then back to Earl St, so the fare is a not inconsiderable one and I imagine Helen would be miffed if she thought she was onto a freebie but had to stump up.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Yes, IIRC that was after BJ had agreed to pay for the taxi when they were leaving the Barrowlands.

I wonder if this is what lead to the altercation which Hannah said he saw.

It's quite a long way from the Barrowlands to Kelso St then back to Earl St, so the fare is a not inconsiderable one and I imagine Helen would be miffed if she thought she was onto a freebie but had to stump up.

It’s why Jean ended up trying to buy cigarettes in the Barrowland. George Puttock had given her the taxi money so that Helen wouldn’t spend it resulting in them having to walk home and when Helen told Jean that they didn’t need to pay for a taxi because John was picking up the bill Jean decided to spend the money on a packet of cigarettes (which didn’t work out of course)

[Herlock Sholmes]

Did any witnesses who saw the man with Jemima McDonald, the second victim, mention such a tie?

It’s a part read by an actor describing the police report and it says that the man was ‘not further described.’

[Herlock Sholmes]

How unobservant have I been that I’ve only just noticed that each episode of the podcast comes with a transcript! Unfortunately though you can’t copy and paste it. If we could do that then there would have been no need to take notes.

[barnflatwyngarde]

How unobservant have I been that I’ve only just noticed that each episode of the podcast comes with a transcript! Unfortunately though you can’t copy and paste it. If we could do that then there would have been no need to take notes.

Good stuff Herlock, I never noticed that.
Where the hell is it?
Could you attach a link to the transcript?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Good stuff Herlock, I never noticed that.
Where the hell is it?
Could you attach a link to the transcript?

Not the transcript itself but this is the previous page…hopefully.

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/bible-john-creation-of-a-serial-killer/id1647562975?i=1000583919476

Then you click on Transcript. It won’t let you copy and paste though.

[barnflatwyngarde]

Thanks Herlock, I'll check it out tomorrow.
Spent a couple of hours today putting my notes on the podcast episodes on to the pc.
There's loads of great stuff there.
I'm looking forward to pulling all the notes from the books and the podcast together.
I think it'll be fascinating to all the disparate facts and speculations pulled together in a, hopefully, coherent way.