Bible John (General Discussion)

[Ms Diddles]

Does anyone (@barnflatwyngarde?) know whether Glasgow tenements would have had security locks on the close door back in the BJ era?

I'm a little mystified by:

a) how BJ and Helen Puttock got through to the back court of number 95 (no lock? broken lock?)

b) why they accessed the back close. Yes, I know there's an obvious answer to that!! I'm just not sure sex was on the cards. The fact that the taxi driver reported a scuffle after they exited the taxi which he just attributed to a domestic dispute doesn't really sound like foreplay.

It makes me wonder at what precise moment things turned nasty and, if it was relatively soon after exiting the taxi, why did Helen accompany BJ into the back court or not scream the place down if she was forced.

She sounds like a feisty Glasgow lass.

Anyone got any thoughts on this?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Does anyone (@barnflatwyngarde?) know whether Glasgow tenements would have had security locks on the close door back in the BJ era?

I'm a little mystified by:

a) how BJ and Helen Puttock got through to the back court of number 95 (no lock? broken lock?)

b) why they accessed the back close. Yes, I know there's an obvious answer to that!! I'm just not sure sex was on the cards. The fact that the taxi driver reported a scuffle after they exited the taxi which he just attributed to a domestic dispute doesn't really sound like foreplay.

It makes me wonder at what precise moment things turned nasty and, if it was relatively soon after exiting the taxi, why did Helen accompany BJ into the back court or not scream the place down if she was forced.

She sounds like a feisty Glasgow lass.

Actually this might perhaps at least partially explain why no one heard screaming? It does sound like ‘feisty’ was a fitting word to describe Helen. When cautioned against going out because of the dangers facing women she brandished her nails as if they were weapons. Also, from the podcast, Helen did suffer some domestic violence so, whilst I’m certainly not putting her in any category with the JtR victims, I’m guessing that life had maybe toughened Helen up. Or maybe she didn’t want it to become public knowledge that she was with a man that wasn’t her husband?

Anyone got any thoughts on this?

Hi Ms D,

As you will have deduced…I’m not a Glaswegian. But couldn’t the back court have been accessible via the ‘alley’ on the right hand side of the house?

[barnflatwyngarde]

Does anyone (@barnflatwyngarde?) know whether Glasgow tenements would have had security locks on the close door back in the BJ era?

I'm a little mystified by:

a) how BJ and Helen Puttock got through to the back court of number 95 (no lock? broken lock?)

b) why they accessed the back close. Yes, I know there's an obvious answer to that!! I'm just not sure sex was on the cards. The fact that the taxi driver reported a scuffle after they exited the taxi which he just attributed to a domestic dispute doesn't really sound like foreplay.

It makes me wonder at what precise moment things turned nasty and, if it was relatively soon after exiting the taxi, why did Helen accompany BJ into the back court or not scream the place down if she was forced.

She sounds like a feisty Glasgow lass.

Anyone got any thoughts on this?

Hi Ms D,
I spent the first 11 years of my life living in a glasgow tenement.

There were 3 houses on every landing with a shared toilet for every landing.
There was no door at the front or the back of the tenement, you could walk off the front street straight through to the back court.
The back court was a large area where the outside bins were and where the washing was hung up to dry.

The houses on Earl Street look as if they are quite modern for 1960's Glasgow, they are much nicer than the kind of tenement I grew up in (see photo attached).
However I can say with certainty that there would be no security doors obstructing entry to the close or the back court.

I have no idea why they went to the back court, I can only ussume it was for a kiss and cuddle.
If Helen had been attacked in the close itself, the echo would have reverberated throughout the building.
The close was in effect a huge echo chamber, so I assume that she went through the close to the back court willingly.

[barnflatwyngarde]

Sorry guys, while I'm wallowing in nostalgia, I thought that I'd share this excellent photo.

It shows kids playing in the back court and shows the washing and the bins that were in the back court, another reason why there would no secure doors at the front or back of the close is that the binmen would need access to the bins in the back court.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Great photo Barn

[cobalt]

A very powerful photo where every face tells a story and church spires are visible behind the rather grim stonework of the tenements. I'd guess it was taken around the mid 1950s- maybe part of the Bert Hardy collection for Picture Post?

[Herlock Sholmes]

I wonder how many of those kids are still alive? A more sinister thought though - that lad on the right could have turned out to have been Bible John.

[Ms Diddles]

Hi Ms D,
I spent the first 11 years of my life living in a glasgow tenement.

There were 3 houses on every landing with a shared toilet for every landing.
There was no door at the front or the back of the tenement, you could walk off the front street straight through to the back court.
The back court was a large area where the outside bins were and where the washing was hung up to dry.

The houses on Earl Street look as if they are quite modern for 1960's Glasgow, they are much nicer than the kind of tenement I grew up in (see photo attached).
However I can say with certainty that there would be no security doors obstructing entry to the close or the back court.

I have no idea why they went to the back court, I can only ussume it was for a kiss and cuddle.
If Helen had been attacked in the close itself, the echo would have reverberated throughout the building.
The close was in effect a huge echo chamber, so I assume that she went through the close to the back court willingly.

Thanks for your thoughts Barn!

I've lived in a few Glasgow tenements in my time too (although by the time I got here they all had indoor toilets and locks on the close doors, so I've had it easy!).

I hadn't realised that they were all open access back in the day, so that answers my question.

I agree that any noise inside the close would have been heard by all tenants, so the attack could not have commenced there.

I do think the winching in the back court (to use an apt Glasweigan expression) sounds a bit incongruous coming so soon after the scuffle witnessed by Hannah, but maybe the falling out just added to the passion!

[Ms Diddles]

Sorry guys, while I'm wallowing in nostalgia, I thought that I'd share this excellent photo.

It shows kids playing in the back court and shows the washing and the bins that were in the back court, another reason why there would no secure doors at the front or back of the close is that the binmen would need access to the bins in the back court.

Great picture, Barn!

I am now trying to identify the church and work out where that is!

[Ms Diddles]

A very powerful photo where every face tells a story and church spires are visible behind the rather grim stonework of the tenements. I'd guess it was taken around the mid 1950s- maybe part of the Bert Hardy collection for Picture Post?

It's great isn't it?

It looks like Bert Hardy.

I quite like Oscar Marzaroli's photos too.

They're extremely evocative and really bring the old tenements to life.

[Ms Diddles]

I wonder how many of those kids are still alive? A more sinister thought though - that lad on the right could have turned out to have been Bible John.

Ha! Now you say it, he does look rather tall, slim and sandy haired....

Is that a milk and roses complexion??

The wee girl in the picture has just stolen his last tin of beans and called him a ginger twat.

His anger is going to ferment into a lifetime of violence and misogyny, and it all started in that back court!

Nice spot, Herlock!

[barnflatwyngarde]

Great picture, Barn!

I am now trying to identify the church and work out where that is!

Ms D, my guess would probably be that it's the Gorbals.
The deprivation is very noticeable, and the council paid very little attention to the Gorbals, until they decided to raze it to the ground.
Also there are some fine old churches in that area of Glasgow. If not the Gorbals, possibly Bridgeton?

[barnflatwyngarde]

It's great isn't it?

It looks like Bert Hardy.

I quite like Oscar Marzaroli's photos too.

They're extremely evocative and really bring the old tenements to life.

I agree about Oscar Marzarolli's photographs.
My avatar is a Marzarolli photo " Golden Haired Lass".

[Herlock Sholmes]

I agree about Oscar Marzarolli's photographs.
My avatar is a Marzarolli photo " Golden Haired Lass".

I thought it was you Barn. I know that they used to dress young lads as girls in the Victorian era.

[Ms Diddles]

I agree about Oscar Marzarolli's photographs.
My avatar is a Marzarolli photo " Golden Haired Lass".

Do you know, I have seen your avatar for all these years and never made the connection before!

Some mystery solver I am!!