Bible John: A New Suspect by Jill Bavin-Mizzi

[Ms Diddles]

A few thought on BJ's remark as remembered by Jeannie: 'My father says these places are dens of iniquity.' It's a strange type of mature adult who quotes his father's moral precepts inside a dance hall. Not much of a pick up line in its own right. A bit of a turn off I would think. Did you ever go to a dance hall and say to a prospective (sexual) partner, 'My mum/dad says?' It's a passion killer.

Agree!

"These places are dens of iniquity" would be pompous enough, but "my father says these places are dens of iniquity" takes it to a whole other level of prissy!

I guess it's not inconsistent with his "you know what happened to the adulterous woman" and "I prayed at Hogmanay" chat.

In terms of his patter, he certainly was not a skilled operator!


Remember he is uttering the words inside one of the very establishments his father has denounced. So how can BJ be claiming his father as a moral authority whilst at the same time flouting the very authority he is proclaiming? It is completely contradictory: he either accepts his father's moral precepts or he does not. So what's he doing here dancing around looking for a shag? Is he a religious fanatic or a atheistic rebel?

very good point and something that I'd not considered before.

Maybe Helen and Jeannie should have sensed something awry here, as the bouncers and manager did. Maybe they did but settled for a cheap taxi home.

This is something I've pondered but not reached any conclusions about.

On the one hand, it seems likely that on leaving the Barrowlands Helen and Jeannie were in it for a free ride home.

However as the journey progressed and it was suggested that the taxi was to drop Jeannie off first and then double back to drop Helen, there could have been no doubt that BJ's intention was to get Helen alone.

This would have been immediately apparent to both Helen and Jeannie.

I can only assume from this that Helen was "up for it" and Jeannie was aware of that and happy to facilitate.

I'd bet my bottom dollar that there would have been some form of surreptitious communication between the sisters to establish that Helen was indeed wanting to be left alone with BJ.

That's generally how it works!

IIRC Jeannie said something like she got out of the taxi round the corner or just along from her house as she didn't want BJ to see where she lived (or did I imagine that?).

I guess she must have sensed something a bit "off" but didn't want to spoil Helen's fun, probably assuming that Helen could handle the weirdo with the crap patter!


Finally, the word 'father' if accurately reported is a little unusual. In conversationalist Scots the forms 'dad,' 'da,' or 'faither' were more common and still are to this day. 'Father' has a clear religious resonance which actually anticipates the Bible John blather that Jeannie remembered in the taxi journey. BJ's form of register was clearly that of a religious person in my view which seemed a bit 'cute' at the time to Helen and Jeannie but turned out to be lethal. Such a man must have had this as a regular feature of his verbal discourse. It could hardly be hidden. Barn has no memory of such a register from Templeton.

Interesting thoughts Cobalt!

[barnflatwyngarde]

That's interesting, Barn!

Perhaps our perceptions are coloured by the well-worn tropes of crime fiction.

The dedicated murder detective whose lazer-focus on one specific crime leads to the break-up of his marriage and descent into alcohol abuse / substance misuse or madness (delete as appropriate).

Perhaps the reality is far more prosaic?

Hi Ms D, Yeah, I thought the information I found out about Joe Beattie was striking.

But I suppose that it is only striking if you come at it from the position of assuming that the leadership of a team looking for a triple killing serial killer would be a full time job.

The papers reported that in one of the 1970 murder cases Beattie was involved in, he was the lead officer, and in the other he was co-lead officer.
In the other cases, his exact role is not specified.

I wrote in my post that the Bible John murder squad was in existence from 1968-1972.
This was a date that I got from the internet, but I have tried, without success to find any corroboration for these exact dates, so I think that they should be treated with caution.

It just strikes me as strange that the hunt for a serial killer was not given top priority.

[Ms Diddles]

I have been doing a trawl through old newspapers, digging out some interesting articles relating to all aspects and people of the case.
I have found a couple of things relating to Joe Beattie that I think are interesting.

Apparently the original murder case team was in existence from 1968 - 1972, led by Joe Beattie for most of this period.
I know nothing about the workings of Glasgow Police, but I would assume that whoever led the murder squad looking for a brutal serial killer, would be doing it as a full time job.
But this appears not to be the case.

Newspapers report that Joe Beattie was involved in, and sometimes leading, in murder cases on the following dates:

20th May 1970
21st June 1970
28th July 1970
29th Oct 1970

Also, on 21st April 1970 he was involved in a drugs case.

This seems to imply that Joe Beattie was not involved in leading the Bible John murder team full time in 1970.

Also, The Sunday Post of 10 January 1971 states that Joe Beattie was put in charge of the investigation into the Ibrox Stadium disaster of 2nd January 1971 which led to the deaths of 66 people.

The paper says that Joe Beattie "was moved from his usual office at the Central Division, where for over a year he has masterminded the massive Bible John murder hunt".

The above facts seem to imply that in 1970, Joe Beattie was not 100% involved in the Bible John Investigation, and that his involvement in the case quite possibly ended in January 1971.

That's interesting, Barn!

Perhaps our perceptions are coloured by the well-worn tropes of crime fiction.

The dedicated murder detective whose lazer-focus on one specific crime leads to the break-up of his marriage and descent into alcohol abuse / substance misuse or madness (delete as appropriate).

Perhaps the reality is far more prosaic?

[cobalt]

On a political level, I'm slightly surprised the Bible John investigation lasted until 1972. The tabloids are often criticised for exploiting crime to boost sales, but had an inspired Glasgow newspaper sub editor not contrived the ingenious moniker 'Bible John' would many of us today have even been aware of these murders? The media focus probably helped drive the initial investigation.

The female victims were from the lower social class and, horror of horrors, had actually been out enjoying themselves. Had they not been grouped together under the Bible John soubriquet I suspect they would have long been forgotten. In that sense the sub editor did the victims and we seekers after justice a service.

A few thought on BJ's remark as remembered by Jeannie: 'My father says these places are dens of iniquity.' It's a strange type of mature adult who quotes his father's moral precepts inside a dance hall. Not much of a pick up line in its own right. A bit of a turn off I would think. Did you ever go to a dance hall and say to a prospective (sexual) partner, 'My mum/dad says?' It's a passion killer.

Remember he is uttering the words inside one of the very establishments his father has denounced. So how can BJ be claiming his father as a moral authority whilst at the same time flouting the very authority he is proclaiming? It is completely contradictory: he either accepts his father's moral precepts or he does not. So what's he doing here dancing around looking for a shag? Is he a religious fanatic or a atheistic rebel? Maybe Helen and Jeannie should have sensed something awry here, as the bouncers and manager did. Maybe they did but settled for a cheap taxi home.

Finally, the word 'father' if accurately reported is a little unusual. In conversationalist Scots the forms 'dad,' 'da,' or 'faither' were more common and still are to this day. 'Father' has a clear religious resonance which actually anticipates the Bible John blather that Jeannie remembered in the taxi journey. BJ's form of register was clearly that of a religious person in my view which seemed a bit 'cute' at the time to Helen and Jeannie but turned out to be lethal. Such a man must have had this as a regular feature of his verbal discourse. It could hardly be hidden. Barn has no memory of such a register from Templeton.

[New Waterloo]

Hi Herlock. Thanks for pointing that out. Yes in the Podcast I now recall. Must stop calling it a Blog (its an age thing)

Hannahs ID seems very convincing and I think carries some weight. It is quite something to be so positive after several years.

I think I will listen again to the Podcast and Jeannie's recollection. I get the feeling we are missing something about that journey.

I have to remind myself of the other victims movements after leaving the Barrowlands.

NE

[Herlock Sholmes]

I have been doing a trawl through old newspapers, digging out some interesting articles relating to all aspects and people of the case.
I have found a couple of things relating to Joe Beattie that I think are interesting.

Apparently the original murder case team was in existence from 1968 - 1972, led by Joe Beattie for most of this period.
I know nothing about the workings of Glasgow Police, but I would assume that whoever led the murder squad looking for a brutal serial killer, would be doing it as a full time job.
But this appears not to be the case.

Newspapers report that Joe Beattie was involved in, and sometimes leading, in murder cases on the following dates:

20th May 1970
21st June 1970
28th July 1970
29th Oct 1970

Also, on 21st April 1970 he was involved in a drugs case.

This seems to imply that Joe Beattie was not involved in leading the Bible John murder team full time in 1970.

Also, The Sunday Post of 10 January 1971 states that Joe Beattie was put in charge of the investigation into the Ibrox Stadium disaster of 2nd January 1971 which led to the deaths of 66 people.

The paper says that Joe Beattie "was moved from his usual office at the Central Division, where for over a year he has masterminded the massive Bible John murder hunt".

The above facts seem to imply that in 1970, Joe Beattie was not 100% involved in the Bible John Investigation, and that his involvement in the case quite possibly ended in January 1971.

Like you Barn I don’t know how the set-up worked but as a Superintendent it’s perhaps not that surprising that Beattie would have overseen multiple case with perhaps a Chief Inspector looking after the day to day running of each individual case?

I wonder when any news will be forthcoming of the investigation that Glasgow Police are supposed to be undertaking as a result of Audrey Gillian’s podcast?

[barnflatwyngarde]

I have been doing a trawl through old newspapers, digging out some interesting articles relating to all aspects and people of the case.
I have found a couple of things relating to Joe Beattie that I think are interesting.

Apparently the original murder case team was in existence from 1968 - 1972, led by Joe Beattie for most of this period.
I know nothing about the workings of Glasgow Police, but I would assume that whoever led the murder squad looking for a brutal serial killer, would be doing it as a full time job.
But this appears not to be the case.

Newspapers report that Joe Beattie was involved in, and sometimes leading, in murder cases on the following dates:

20th May 1970
21st June 1970
28th July 1970
29th Oct 1970

Also, on 21st April 1970 he was involved in a drugs case.

This seems to imply that Joe Beattie was not involved in leading the Bible John murder team full time in 1970.

Also, The Sunday Post of 10 January 1971 states that Joe Beattie was put in charge of the investigation into the Ibrox Stadium disaster of 2nd January 1971 which led to the deaths of 66 people.

The paper says that Joe Beattie "was moved from his usual office at the Central Division, where for over a year he has masterminded the massive Bible John murder hunt".

The above facts seem to imply that in 1970, Joe Beattie was not 100% involved in the Bible John Investigation, and that his involvement in the case quite possibly ended in January 1971.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Just been listening the BBC Blog again. I think McInnes being older and with members of his family police officers the matter regarding the fire would have been more likely in his mind than Templeton. Having said that Templeton by the very nature of his job would have been well read and more academic so may have been aware of the accusations through reading reports, newspapers etc. Good points by Cobalt and all.

A couple of other things struck me while listening. Probably been mentioned before but there will in no doubt be photographs of Mcinnes taken when he was arrested and charged with offences. Have these ever been released. Probably some time restriction on their publication although it is true to say that we do often see 'mug shots' of offenders taken of offenders recently charged so not sure how that is able to happen.

Also when listening to the Blog there seems to be some early confusion regarding his description. The army describes McInnes as a 'heavy slow man' where past neighbours describe him as very thin and sparrow like when talking of descriptions during a similar time period. This is odd.

Of course he may have put on more body mass whilst in the army. Just an observation. Don't know where it takes us really but did wonder if the army report was talking about the right man and not another person with the surname McInnes.

NW

Hi NW,

I seem to recall that the taxi driver, Alexander Hannah, was shown a photograph of McInnes which had been taken after his arrest for a previous offence. He not only identified him but he also pointed out that he looked younger in the mugshot. (I believe that this was in the podcast btw)

[barnflatwyngarde]

A couple of observations regarding the cigarette machine incident on the night Helen Puttock was murdered. I think they point away from John Templeton being the killer.

The Barrowland Ballroom was destroyed in a fire in 1958 and reopened in late 1960. As is often the case there were rumours of it being 'an insurance job' but these soon faded from public memory. Yet BJ, 10 years later, brings up this allegation in his heated disagreement with Barrowland staff. To me this suggests a person who was hanging around dance halls at the time of the fire and felt in some way related to the event. McInnes would have been 19 at the time of the fire and therefore very much within the age group who would be going out to the dancing.
Templeton on the other hand was aged only 14 at the time. Admittedly, Templeton might have become familiar with the rumour but it would hardly have registered very deeply at that age, not enough to employ it as a verbal weapon a decade later. To me the allegation supports the belief that BJ, with his slightly out of fashion look, was nearer to 30 than a man in his mid 20s.

For the second point I am relying on Barn's personal impressions of John Templeton. Throwing out wild allegations of corruption with the risk of being forcibly ejected from the premises does not fit with the picture Barn has supplied to us of John Templeton, the Glasgow Library attendant. And I doubt that flashing a Glasgow Library ticket would carry much weight in the Barrowland.

Hi Cobalt,
I think that you make some interesting points.
The story about the Barrowland fire being an "insurance job" is one that would have circulated and spread via pubs and other forms of the social grapevine.
I can't imagine that it was ever reported in the press and media.

And yes, after 10 years, it is surprising that the killer would bring it up in conversation, and lends credence to cobalt's theory that the killer would be closer to thirty years old.

Again, cobalt makes a good point re the incident about the cigarette machine.
I did meet John Templeton on quite a few occasions and spoke to him quite a few times, and having thought about it, the John Templeton I knew was, in my opinion, unlikely to get into a possible ruck with some tough Barrowland bouncers.

So, well done cobalt for teasing out these interesting points.

[New Waterloo]

Just been listening the BBC Blog again. I think McInnes being older and with members of his family police officers the matter regarding the fire would have been more likely in his mind than Templeton. Having said that Templeton by the very nature of his job would have been well read and more academic so may have been aware of the accusations through reading reports, newspapers etc. Good points by Cobalt and all.

A couple of other things struck me while listening. Probably been mentioned before but there will in no doubt be photographs of Mcinnes taken when he was arrested and charged with offences. Have these ever been released. Probably some time restriction on their publication although it is true to say that we do often see 'mug shots' of offenders taken of offenders recently charged so not sure how that is able to happen.

Also when listening to the Blog there seems to be some early confusion regarding his description. The army describes McInnes as a 'heavy slow man' where past neighbours describe him as very thin and sparrow like when talking of descriptions during a similar time period. This is odd.

Of course he may have put on more body mass whilst in the army. Just an observation. Don't know where it takes us really but did wonder if the army report was talking about the right man and not another person with the surname McInnes.

NW

[cobalt]

I don't think these two comments are quite the same, although I agree they share a pompous morality.

The dance halls as 'dens of iniquity' comment is a very general comment not specific to any of Glasgow's many dancehalls of the time which included The Barrowland, The Majestic. the Dennistoun Palais, the Locarno and the the Plaza. It's the type of comment made by a person who has never been inside any of these premises. The sort of comment a moralising parent might offer across the dinner table.

However the insurance fraud claim was made quite specifically about the Barrowland which had indeed been destroyed by fire in 1958, a decade before the killings. A 14 year old boy who had never been in a dancehall would hardly have distinguished one venue from another, even at his parents' promptings. Especially ten years later. But a patron who remembered the 'scandal' would have been confident enough to throw out the allegation in the heat of the moment. This doesn't necessarily point to McInnes but it does indicate someone in his age profile to me. As indeed do the ages of the victims.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Yes, that’s a good point too Ms D. Someone who had heard his dad say that dancehalls like Barrowland where dens of iniquity might also have heard his dad say “and that fire was an insurance job too.”

[Ms Diddles]

A couple of observations regarding the cigarette machine incident on the night Helen Puttock was murdered. I think they point away from John Templeton being the killer.

The Barrowland Ballroom was destroyed in a fire in 1958 and reopened in late 1960. As is often the case there were rumours of it being 'an insurance job' but these soon faded from public memory. Yet BJ, 10 years later, brings up this allegation in his heated disagreement with Barrowland staff. To me this suggests a person who was hanging around dance halls at the time of the fire and felt in some way related to the event. McInnes would have been 19 at the time of the fire and therefore very much within the age group who would be going out to the dancing.
Templeton on the other hand was aged only 14 at the time. Admittedly, Templeton might have become familiar with the rumour but it would hardly have registered very deeply at that age, not enough to employ it as a verbal weapon a decade later.

Interesting thoughts, Cobalt.

You make a very good point.

The only thing I would say to counter this would be that the reference to the fire / insurance job would be consistent with the "my dad says these places are dens of iniquity " statement.

Perhaps scathing comments about the Glasgow dance halls were a regular component of conversation in the Templeton household?

[Herlock Sholmes]

The point about the fire is a good one Cobalt. Templeton could have heard a rumour via older family or locals talking in shops etc but, although not conclusive (and you haven’t presented it as conclusive of course) it’s something that you would feel likelier to get picked up and recalled by someone a little older than Templeton would have been at the time. If we were doing a tick box exercise we would have to score that one in favour of McInnes I think.

Your second point is a very valid one too. Does Templeton sound like kind of guy that would risk ending up out on the pavement on his a**e after haranguing the manager and a bouncer. I bet there were a few men who could tell stories of run-ins with Barrowlands bouncers.

[cobalt]

A couple of observations regarding the cigarette machine incident on the night Helen Puttock was murdered. I think they point away from John Templeton being the killer.

The Barrowland Ballroom was destroyed in a fire in 1958 and reopened in late 1960. As is often the case there were rumours of it being 'an insurance job' but these soon faded from public memory. Yet BJ, 10 years later, brings up this allegation in his heated disagreement with Barrowland staff. To me this suggests a person who was hanging around dance halls at the time of the fire and felt in some way related to the event. McInnes would have been 19 at the time of the fire and therefore very much within the age group who would be going out to the dancing.
Templeton on the other hand was aged only 14 at the time. Admittedly, Templeton might have become familiar with the rumour but it would hardly have registered very deeply at that age, not enough to employ it as a verbal weapon a decade later. To me the allegation supports the belief that BJ, with his slightly out of fashion look, was nearer to 30 than a man in his mid 20s.

For the second point I am relying on Barn's personal impressions of John Templeton. Throwing out wild allegations of corruption with the risk of being forcibly ejected from the premises does not fit with the picture Barn has supplied to us of John Templeton, the Glasgow Library attendant. And I doubt that flashing a Glasgow Library ticket would carry much weight in the Barrowland.