Did the Right Man Hang

[Herlock Sholmes]

Yep, thanks from me too, Eten. Although I'm a long way from doubting Courtney's guilt and/or him having escaped the drop, I'm still enjoying the programme and will certainly tune in.

Hi Herlock - wondered if you were referring to me rather than 'Roger' in your post. Not an issue for me but obviously can't speak for the esteemed rjpalmer.

Best regards,
OneRound

Hi OneRound,

To be honest it would have to be both of you. Roger expressed the same opinion over on JTR Forums

[etenguy]

Yep, thanks from me too, Eten. Although I'm a long way from doubting Courtney's guilt and/or him having escaped the drop, I'm still enjoying the programme and will certainly tune in.

Best regards,
OneRound

It’s hard to see how the defence could hope to have carried a suicide verdict. Why would she have chosen that location to commit suicide? Would she really have thrown the knife 14 feet away and then bled to death? It’s just not believable. I can’t recall though if it was proven to have been the actual knife? The abortion theory is just about possible I think but I just can’t see someone being hanged in Courtenay’s place though. So far I’d have to agree with Roger that there’s just not enough there to convince that Courtenay wasn’t the killer. Episode 7 has to produce some ‘wow’ piece of evidence to change my opinion and, I’m guessing, everyone else’s.

I agree with you both going into the 7th episode - it seems more likely to me that an urban myth has grown around this case and that is what the reporters are hearing. Nevertheless, the reporters are engaging and the investigation is interesting. I'm not expecting any grand revelation but keen to hear from their star witness and what they have to add.

[OneRound]

Thanks for that Eten, I’m looking forward to it though I’m pretty much expecting an anti-climax. I had read the article that you posted and a couple of others. It’s hard to see how the defence could hope to have carried a suicide verdict. Why would she have chosen that location to commit suicide? Would she really have thrown the knife 14 feet away and then bled to death? It’s just not believable. I can’t recall though if it was proven to have been the actual knife? The abortion theory is just about possible I think but I just can’t see someone being hanged in Courtenay’s place though. So far I’d have to agree with Roger that there’s just not enough there to convince that Courtenay wasn’t the killer. Episode 7 has to produce some ‘wow’ piece of evidence to change my opinion and, I’m guessing, everyone else’s.

Yep, thanks from me too, Eten. Although I'm a long way from doubting Courtney's guilt and/or him having escaped the drop, I'm still enjoying the programme and will certainly tune in.

Hi Herlock - wondered if you were referring to me rather than 'Roger' in your post. Not an issue for me but obviously can't speak for the esteemed rjpalmer.

Best regards,
OneRound

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock and OneRound

The next, and final episode (I think - already episode 7 of a six part series) of 'Did the Right Man Hang' is broadcast at midday on Saturday (9th)

Enjoy.

Thanks for that Eten, I’m looking forward to it though I’m pretty much expecting an anti-climax. I had read the article that you posted and a couple of others. It’s hard to see how the defence could hope to have carried a suicide verdict. Why would she have chosen that location to commit suicide? Would she really have thrown the knife 14 feet away and then bled to death? It’s just not believable. I can’t recall though if it was proven to have been the actual knife? The abortion theory is just about possible I think but I just can’t see someone being hanged in Courtenay’s place though. So far I’d have to agree with Roger that there’s just not enough there to convince that Courtenay wasn’t the killer. Episode 7 has to produce some ‘wow’ piece of evidence to change my opinion and, I’m guessing, everyone else’s.

[etenguy]

Hi Herlock and OneRound

The next, and final episode (I think - already episode 7 of a six part series) of 'Did the Right Man Hang' is broadcast at midday on Saturday (9th)

Enjoy.

[etenguy]

Found this in the Belfast Telegraph of 05/07/2008:

Courtney protested his innocence to the end. But was this the end of this convicted killer? Rumours for years afterwards abounded in the Armagh area that Courtney was indeed alive and well in Australia, where he was said to have been seen by several people who took advantage of the £10 Programme.

They must have surely been mistaken, though, because the inquest into his death was carried out at Belfast Prison by the City Coroner, Mr T E Alexander, at 10 o'clock that same morning, two hours after the bolt was pulled. Pierrepoint was the reported executioner. Witnesses to the execution were: the prison medical officer, Dr O'Flaherty, Captain R W Stevens, the prison governor, and Mr Valentine Wilson, the Under-Sheriff for Co Armagh.

Full article at: https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/i...-28247843.html

[etenguy]

Hi Eten,

I didn’t realise that the guy who has the Wallace book out in January used to post on here? I’m going to do a bit of reading through before I read his book (which ive pre-ordered) There’s a huge gap between when he first said that his book would be out soon until now. A gap of years in fact.

Have you ordered it?

Not yet, Herlock. I'll look in January.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock

The idea of a botched abortion is, as you say, entirely plausible. The coroner's report should help understand whether that is a likely possibility. I guess that is tied up with the records they can't access at the moment.

It is an interesting investigation, a bit of a fishing trip in some respects, but it seems they may have landed something. I agree that it would be good to have more such programs. I seem to remember a cold case series some time back, but cannot recall the name. Also, there is a BBC program - Murder, Mystery and my Family - which you may enjoy if you haven't already watched. Two barristers review historic murder cases that led to a death sentence but the evidence may not meet the standards of today (some on youtube and I would guess also iplayer).

Hi Eten,

Yes I saw both series of Murder, Mystery and My family but, just checking wiki, I didn’t know that there had been 4 series. I think that I’ve only seen two. There’s also a book out which I did consider getting but to be honest I was slightly put off by the fact that there were no photographs which I always like to see in a factual book.

.....

I didn’t realise that the guy who has the Wallace book out in January used to post on here? I’m going to do a bit of reading through before I read his book (which ive pre-ordered) There’s a huge gap between when he first said that his book would be out soon until now. A gap of years in fact.

Have you ordered it?

[etenguy]

Whilst I agree with OneRound that there’s no solid evidence that Courtenay didn’t kill Minnie rumours aren’t always necessarily false. Or there might be a kernel of truth within them. That there were more than one source (who had no knowledge of each other) saying that Minnie Reid died as a result of a botched abortion at least adds some weight to the suggestion. So I think that the suggestion is at least plausible. It’s more difficult of course to see how the wrong man could have been hanged but, as Eten mentions, there’s the discrepancy in height between the prison records and the ships manifest. It’s a tantalising suggestion but they would need to produce much more to make it a likely proposition.

I think it’s an interesting case and it’s just a pity that no one dug around 30 or 40 years ago and got to talk to some of those more closely involved (whether they would have talked of course) As it stands I’d go with both of you but with part of me still thinking that the botched abortion part is at least a plausible possibility. It will be interesting to see what episode 7 reveals. It’s a pity that there aren’t more podcasts like this.

Hi Herlock

The idea of a botched abortion is, as you say, entirely plausible. The coroner's report should help understand whether that is a likely possibility. I guess that is tied up with the records they can't access at the moment.

It is an interesting investigation, a bit of a fishing trip in some respects, but it seems they may have landed something. I agree that it would be good to have more such programs. I seem to remember a cold case series some time back, but cannot recall the name. Also, there is a BBC program - Murder, Mystery and my Family - which you may enjoy if you haven't already watched. Two barristers review historic murder cases that led to a death sentence but the evidence may not meet the standards of today (some on youtube and I would guess also iplayer).

[Herlock Sholmes]

Whilst I agree with OneRound that there’s no solid evidence that Courtenay didn’t kill Minnie rumours aren’t always necessarily false. Or there might be a kernel of truth within them. That there were more than one source (who had no knowledge of each other) saying that Minnie Reid died as a result of a botched abortion at least adds some weight to the suggestion. So I think that the suggestion is at least plausible. It’s more difficult of course to see how the wrong man could have been hanged but, as Eten mentions, there’s the discrepancy in height between the prison records and the ships manifest. It’s a tantalising suggestion but they would need to produce much more to make it a likely proposition.

I think it’s an interesting case and it’s just a pity that no one dug around 30 or 40 years ago and got to talk to some of those more closely involved (whether they would have talked of course) As it stands I’d go with both of you but with part of me still thinking that the botched abortion part is at least a plausible possibility. It will be interesting to see what episode 7 reveals. It’s a pity that there aren’t more podcasts like this.

[etenguy]

I’ve just listened to episodes 5 and 6. I do find this an intriguing case. It’s well worth following. I’d assumed though that episode 6 was the final one but an episode 7 is due out early in the new year and tantalisingly a new witness surfaces! Gordy, who has doubts, reckons that the new witness convinces him that there’s truth in the story.

Hi Herlock

I've caught up with these episodes now and looking forward to part 7 of a 6 part series. The new witness though sounds a bit unreliable - stating one thing and then rowing back. It will be interesting to see if there is anything substantial to come.

I was pleased to hear that Gordon Adair's operation appears now to have made a positive difference.

Hi Herlock - I've also now done my homework and caught up with all the broadcast episodes. Similar to my comments after the first two episodes, I like the production; in particular, the clear and non-sensationalist way in which Gordy Adair and Ophelia Byrne go about things.

It's also quite tantalising that the case doesn't yet belong to long ago history but nonetheless now predates nearly all of us. Regarding the latter, I do question whether too much is being built upon rumour and second hand conversations over the years. Just because a modern theory as to the cause of Minnie's Reid's death (a failed abortion) cannot be disproved now, it's also important to recognise that this does not prove that was originally considered to have happened is wrong. Frustrating that all the adults involved at the time have inevitably since died whilst some paper records lack clarity or detail. My natural inclination would be to attribute that last point to the standards of the day rather than presupposing any conspiracy.

From what we have from the time and for all Gordy and Ophelia's recent efforts, I am unconvinced of there being truth in the story of Harold Courtney's innocence. As well as other incriminating factors, he had the means and the motive. I can well understand the jury's verdict and see no reason to believe they were wrong.

Hi OneRound

I tend to agree with you.

As for the further story of Courtney somehow escaping the noose and someone else being hanged in his place, I side with Al above in regarding that as 'ridiculous'. So much seems to stem from what some random guy in Australia said - or is alleged to have said - thirty odd years after the hanging. Steve Fielding, biographer of the Pierrepoints, was pretty dismissive of this possibility in episode 6, albeit more politely than I expected.

Notwithstanding my views on Courtney's guilt and execution as above, I'll still happily listen to episode 7. Gordy at least deserves that.

Best regards,
OneRound

There is one piece of evidence though that is suggestive that Courtney was not the man hanged. That is the discrepancy in the height of the hanged man (5'9") and Courtney's height of 6' plus. Not enough to prove anything, but seems to be the one documented piece of information that supports the possibility.

Best wishes for 2021 - let's hope it is so much better than 2020.

[OneRound]

I’ve just listened to episodes 5 and 6. I do find this an intriguing case. It’s well worth following. I’d assumed though that episode 6 was the final one but an episode 7 is due out early in the new year and tantalisingly a new witness surfaces! Gordy, who has doubts, reckons that the new witness convinces him that there’s truth in the story.

Hi Herlock - I've also now done my homework and caught up with all the broadcast episodes. Similar to my comments after the first two episodes, I like the production; in particular, the clear and non-sensationalist way in which Gordy Adair and Ophelia Byrne go about things.

It's also quite tantalising that the case doesn't yet belong to long ago history but nonetheless now predates nearly all of us. Regarding the latter, I do question whether too much is being built upon rumour and second hand conversations over the years. Just because a modern theory as to the cause of Minnie's Reid's death (a failed abortion) cannot be disproved now, it's also important to recognise that this does not prove that was originally considered to have happened is wrong. Frustrating that all the adults involved at the time have inevitably since died whilst some paper records lack clarity or detail. My natural inclination would be to attribute that last point to the standards of the day rather than presupposing any conspiracy.

From what we have from the time and for all Gordy and Ophelia's recent efforts, I am unconvinced of there being truth in the story of Harold Courtney's innocence. As well as other incriminating factors, he had the means and the motive. I can well understand the jury's verdict and see no reason to believe they were wrong.

As for the further story of Courtney somehow escaping the noose and someone else being hanged in his place, I side with Al above in regarding that as 'ridiculous'. So much seems to stem from what some random guy in Australia said - or is alleged to have said - thirty odd years after the hanging. Steve Fielding, biographer of the Pierrepoints, was pretty dismissive of this possibility in episode 6, albeit more politely than I expected.

Notwithstanding my views on Courtney's guilt and execution as above, I'll still happily listen to episode 7. Gordy at least deserves that.

Best regards,
OneRound

[Herlock Sholmes]

I’ve just listened to episodes 5 and 6. I do find this an intriguing case. It’s well worth following. I’d assumed though that episode 6 was the final one but an episode 7 is due out early in the new year and tantalisingly a new witness surfaces! Gordy, who has doubts, reckons that the new witness convinces him that there’s truth in the story.

[etenguy]

Looks like episodes 5 and 6 are available to listen to. Episode 5 is only available until the 28th though. I’ll give them a listen tomorrow.

Thanks for the reminder, forgot about this. I'll have a listen before they disappear,

[Herlock Sholmes]

Looks like episodes 5 and 6 are available to listen to. Episode 5 is only available until the 28th though. I’ll give them a listen tomorrow.