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  • Originally posted by John G View Post

    I've just checked the link- very good analysis. It's a while since I've contributed to the Wallace thread, but I'm still very much interested in the case.

    What do you think about the burnt Macintosh issue? The prosecution argued that she could have had the cost around her and she fell as she was struck, so as to burn her skirt in the lit fire. The defence suggest it was drapped over her shoulder when struck: Mrs Johnstone had suggested that it was the sort of thing a woman would do. And I believe it was CCJ's suggestion that she had the coat drapped over her shoulder as she was intending to go next door for help, i.e. having detected a sneak thief.

    Either way, I think it creates problems for the argument that Wallace was the killer, i.e. because it suggests the murder was unplanned, otherwise why would Julia have been afforded the opportunity to put on the Macintosh, presumably with the intention of exiting the house.

    I don't think Wallace could have been wearing the Macintosh, because that would mean he accidentally set fire to himself in his own home, and I can't believe be did that very often!

    The only way I see Wallace setting fire to himself is if he was involved in a dynamic struggle with Julia, chasing her around the room, blocking off the exits, but that seems highly implausible to me.

    Just one more question. If Wallace worked with an accomplice then who exactly would he trust? After all, he seemed a bit of a loner, with few if any friends-certainly not Parry, who misappropriated the insurance money when he covered Wallace's round, and who he seems to have detested.
    If John G is short for John Gannon, then first of all I must say I am legitimately honoured you would read and acknowledge my work. I have used your book as my main research guide since I first became interested in the case.

    In regards to the mackintosh, I think the idea put forward by the defence and Mrs. Johnston is the correct one.

    I unfortunately do not see CCJ's solution as being possible at all. If Julia had just discovered someone burgling her, why is her next move to go into the parlour? To me I feel that unless there are two people in that home, Julia was struck down before any robbery took place. If she had just discovered a burglar (who then decided to kill her), I'd expect her to be found dead in the kitchen where she found him... Or alternatively in the hallway or scullery as she attempted to escape from the threat.

    What she wouldn't do after finding out a stranger is not who he says he is (as per CCJ's idea), is go and cozy herself by the fire.

    If Wallace did it himself and I knew that was the case, I would take the final ghostwritten John Bull article as an OJ Simpson type confession. In other words it was held up as a shield while he battered her to death.

    But my suggestion is Julia had done exactly what Mrs. Johnston instinctively thought she had done, and had thrown it round her shoulders admitting someone into the home and parlour (which would take a little while to warm up).

    As per who Wallace would have worked with? Well, according to testimony recovered by Wilkes, Gordon "quite liked" Wallace. Vice versa Wallace termed Parry a family friend. Just recently before the Christmas just gone, Parry had given Wallace a gift in the form of a calendar. Not something I'd expect from a sworn enemy! I see a collaboration as quite plausible.
    Last edited by WallaceWackedHer; 01-29-2020, 09:20 AM.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by WallaceWackedHer View Post

      If John G is short for John Gannon, then first of all I must say I am legitimately honoured you would read and acknowledge my work. I have used your book as my main research guide since I first became interested in the case.

      In regards to the mackintosh, I think the idea put forward by the defence and Mrs. Johnston is the correct one.

      I unfortunately do not see CCJ's solution as being possible at all. If Julia had just discovered someone burgling her, why is her next move to go into the parlour? To me I feel that unless there are two people in that home, Julia was struck down before any robbery took place. If she had just discovered a burglar (who then decided to kill her), I'd expect her to be found dead in the kitchen where she found him... Or alternatively in the hallway or scullery as she attempted to escape from the threat.

      What she wouldn't do after finding out a stranger is not who he says he is (as per CCJ's idea), is go and cozy herself by the fire.

      If Wallace did it himself and I knew that was the case, I would take the final ghostwritten John Bull article as an OJ Simpson type confession. In other words it was held up as a shield while he battered her to death.

      But my suggestion is Julia had done exactly what Mrs. Johnston instinctively thought she had done, and had thrown it round her shoulders admitting someone into the home and parlour (which would take a little while to warm up).

      As per who Wallace would have worked with? Well, according to testimony recovered by Wilkes, Gordon "quite liked" Wallace. Vice versa Wallace termed Parry a family friend. Just recently before the Christmas just gone, Parry had given Wallace a gift in the form of a calendar. Not something I'd expect from a sworn enemy! I see a collaboration as quite plausible.
      Hi,

      Unfortunately, I'm not John Gannon, that's been asked before, but thanks for asking!

      You've made some good points there, certainty food for thought, and I certainly didn't realize that Parry was considered a family friend, so thanks for info.

      Your theory that Julia admitted someone into her home seems very plausible, and is supported by Mrs Johnstone's suggestion.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by John G View Post

        Hi,

        Unfortunately, I'm not John Gannon, that's been asked before, but thanks for asking!

        You've made some good points there, certainty food for thought, and I certainly didn't realize that Parry was considered a family friend, so thanks for info.

        Your theory that Julia admitted someone into her home seems very plausible, and is supported by Mrs Johnstone's suggestion.
        Well I still appreciate you taking the time to read and acknowledge my work

        My friend Josh who I have closely worked with has known of the case for ~20 years since he was at school, and fortunately for me he has a rain man tier memory, so he can recall very obscure facts he read once years ago. That has proven very useful indeed.

        If you want to research the case yourself, definitely invest in a Kindle copy of Gannon's book. It is definitely the most thoroughly researched book on this case. Gannon's book on Kindle + the Kindle search function is incredibly useful as a researcher wanting to find statements or information about certain individuals quickly.

        Though Gannon's book is currently the best resource, I'm hoping my website will be THE Wallace Case resource. I just have to make a trip down to Liverpool and I will have the entirety of the case files - and if I can locate Munro's files then that would be a bonus jackpot! The police's files have been pruned a fair bit sadly - but I'd like to see what I can recover.

        I'm planning to expand the site, make it a true freedom of information hub. No piece of evidence in this case should be concealed in my opinion, the public deserve all of the information at their fingertips.

        Hoping I can make that a reality.

        ---

        Also I should add, that it's interesting the police managed to sentence a man to die on the basis he COULD have done something (and essentially forcing timings in reconstructions to ensure this), without ever even thinking about or proving why he WOULD have...

        It has recently (just today in fact) come to my attention that this case is given to law students as a prime example of a miscarriage of justice.
        Last edited by WallaceWackedHer; 01-29-2020, 11:38 AM.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by WallaceWackedHer View Post

          Well I still appreciate you taking the time to read and acknowledge my work

          My friend Josh who I have closely worked with has known of the case for ~20 years since he was at school, and fortunately for me he has a rain man tier memory, so he can recall very obscure facts he read once years ago. That has proven very useful indeed.

          If you want to research the case yourself, definitely invest in a Kindle copy of Gannon's book. It is definitely the most thoroughly researched book on this case. Gannon's book on Kindle + the Kindle search function is incredibly useful as a researcher wanting to find statements or information about certain individuals quickly.

          Though Gannon's book is currently the best resource, I'm hoping my website will be THE Wallace Case resource. I just have to make a trip down to Liverpool and I will have the entirety of the case files - and if I can locate Munro's files then that would be a bonus jackpot! The police's files have been pruned a fair bit sadly - but I'd like to see what I can recover.

          I'm planning to expand the site, make it a true freedom of information hub. No piece of evidence in this case should be concealed in my opinion, the public deserve all of the information at their fingertips.

          Hoping I can make that a reality.

          ---

          Also I should add, that it's interesting the police managed to sentence a man to die on the basis he COULD have done something (and essentially forcing timings in reconstructions to ensure this), without ever even thinking about or proving why he WOULD have...

          It has recently (just today in fact) come to my attention that this case is given to law students as a prime example of a miscarriage of justice.
          No problem. I haven't actually got Gannon's book, so I'll have to take your advice and get round to purchasing it.

          I find the trial transcript to be really useful, but your website seems very detailed. extremly informative-good luck with devloping it. I've also relied on the Inner City Living site, which has lots of detailed info.
          I've actually got a law degree, so interesting the case is being discussed by students.

          Although I don't think Parry acted alone, I feel he probably had some involvement; I think he was very likely to have been Qualtrough, for example, and Parkes' testimony-partly confirmed by Dolly Atkinson, is damning.

          However, I'm not s convinced about his alibi as some. Firstly, I find it convenient that Parry, Brine and Dennison all give an estimate of his leaving of "around 8:30." Secondly, the time itself is convenient abd coincidental, i.e just a few minutes before Wallace returns home and discovers the body. Thirdly, I think it a bit odd that he spends 3 hours at Brine's-wasn't he only there about a birthday invitation? I can't believe he stayed so long because he was best pals with 15 year old Dennison, although Olivia Brine's husband was conveniently away at sea, so be could have been interested in her.

          I also don't think he would have had much of a problem in convincing Dennison to be somewhat economical with the truth, i.e. on the basis that he did visit Brine's but left significantly earlier than he claimed. The dapper Parry, who was popular with the ladies, and had a shiny car-at a time when car ownership wasn't particularly common, must have seemed a world away from Dennison's spotty teenage friends. And I think Brine would then have found it very difficult to contradict both Parry and her nephew, who'd she would be droppjng right in it, something I think she'd be reluctant to do.


          I agree that Wallace is a poor candidate, and I don't think he should even have been arrested. All the substansive evidence is in his favour, such as no blood splatter on his clothing, which no one has satisfactorily explained in my opinion; no sensible explanation of what he did with the murder weapon; his voice didn't remotely match Qualtrough's, according to someone who knew him well, and no evidence he was good at impersonation; no good explanation as to how the coat got burned, from the perspective of Wallace being the killer.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by John G View Post

            No problem. I haven't actually got Gannon's book, so I'll have to take your advice and get round to purchasing it.

            I find the trial transcript to be really useful, but your website seems very detailed. extremly informative-good luck with devloping it. I've also relied on the Inner City Living site, which has lots of detailed info.
            I've actually got a law degree, so interesting the case is being discussed by students.

            Although I don't think Parry acted alone, I feel he probably had some involvement; I think he was very likely to have been Qualtrough, for example, and Parkes' testimony-partly confirmed by Dolly Atkinson, is damning.

            However, I'm not s convinced about his alibi as some. Firstly, I find it convenient that Parry, Brine and Dennison all give an estimate of his leaving of "around 8:30." Secondly, the time itself is convenient abd coincidental, i.e just a few minutes before Wallace returns home and discovers the body. Thirdly, I think it a bit odd that he spends 3 hours at Brine's-wasn't he only there about a birthday invitation? I can't believe he stayed so long because he was best pals with 15 year old Dennison, although Olivia Brine's husband was conveniently away at sea, so be could have been interested in her.

            I also don't think he would have had much of a problem in convincing Dennison to be somewhat economical with the truth, i.e. on the basis that he did visit Brine's but left significantly earlier than he claimed. The dapper Parry, who was popular with the ladies, and had a shiny car-at a time when car ownership wasn't particularly common, must have seemed a world away from Dennison's spotty teenage friends. And I think Brine would then have found it very difficult to contradict both Parry and her nephew, who'd she would be droppjng right in it, something I think she'd be reluctant to do.


            I agree that Wallace is a poor candidate, and I don't think he should even have been arrested. All the substansive evidence is in his favour, such as no blood splatter on his clothing, which no one has satisfactorily explained in my opinion; no sensible explanation of what he did with the murder weapon; his voice didn't remotely match Qualtrough's, according to someone who knew him well, and no evidence he was good at impersonation; no good explanation as to how the coat got burned, from the perspective of Wallace being the killer.
            I think we're of one mind... I'm also uncertain about Parry's alibi. It doesn't 100% cover him from killing Julia by the way (just very strong - he'd have like 5 minutes if he did) but there's evidence from others that there was coercion at play:

            Firstly Lily Lloyd admits to partially falsifying an alibi.

            Secondly on Radio City (I think in the part I am missing - there are 4 parts I have 3), someone said when they were a child Parry's parents came over and tried convincing her parents to get Gordon out of the country.

            So there's good evidence something like that could have gone on. But Phyllis Plant was also given as a name (we just don't have her statement - so she may well have left before 20:30 for all we know). If Phyllis was able to corroborate 20:30 that would be three people persuaded to lie for someone they know to be a probable murderer.

            (It should be noted it was Leslie Williamson with whom he arranged a birthday party, it wasn't while at Brine's house.)

            Furthermore, his recollection of movements after leaving Brine's are detailed and all very innocuous. They were never checked so they could be invented, but he discusses buying cigarettes, collecting an accumulator part for his car, etc... It's not until 11 at night that he goes to John Parkes.

            Now, let's assume he really did go about his business buying cigarettes etc, it seems unlikely he would be doing this if he knew he was now involved in a murder and knew he had murder weapons (etc.) that he had to get rid of... To me, by the description of the tale given by Parkes, it seems like Parry received those murder instruments unexpectedly - hence his anxiety blurting out about the iron bar etc. So I think what happened is when he drove down to meet the accomplice(s) they dumped these things on him.

            I'm not sure if the mitten was even worn but may have been grabbed and used to wipe down a blood-splattered weapon. I say this only because it seems peculiar to keep only one...yet OJ Simpson also had one singular glove in his car. Weird how that could go down - but I assume it's because the first glove they take off is taken off with a hand wearing a glove, it's when they take the second one off they'd be putting their bare hand on it. I haven't thought on it too much but very roughly something to do with that?

            ---

            As for the murder weapon if Wallace did it, I'm of the opinion it was likely never removed from the house at all.

            If this is such a premeditated ingenious scheme, then surely he would have thought to wrap up the murder weapon in something like newspaper so he can do the deed, leave the item where he found it (throwing the newspaper into the fire or flushing it down the toilet of course), and not have to go out on a trip with an iron bar shoved up his sleeve.

            But like I said I don't think a bad plan means it's necessarily not a real one. Wrapping it is the smartest choice, but whether or not someone would necessarily think of that is uncertain.

            Comment


            • Parry’s alibi for the time of the murder is rock solid. We have no reason for suspecting that the Brine’s lied. There were at least four people that were there that night. What motive could they have had for providing a false alibi in a murder investigation? Average people were unlikely to have wanted to have risked getting in trouble with the police for providing a false alibi. Parry then said that he went to get cigarettes and a newspaper at a Post Office in Maiden Lane which was therefore checkable. As was Hignett’s shop where he went to collect his accumulator battery. Then there was the Williamson’s of course. This left Parry with zero time to go to Wolverton Street to kill Julia.

              It also pretty much discounts the idea that Parry went to rendezvous with his accomplice. The murder took place sometime between 6.35 and 8.45. Anyone getting in to number 29 on Party’s suggestion would undoubtedly have been told “you need to be out of there by x o’clock.” It’s unlikely in the extreme that Parry would have pushed it as late as 8.45 because he couldn’t know how persistent William would have been. If someone was watching for when William left it’s also unlikely in the extreme that they’d have left it too long before going in. If they were using the 7.30 meeting time excuse then 7.30 would appear to have been the likeliest time. How likely is it that our mystery man would have sat around chatting to Julia for 45 minutes before springing into action? So even at the latest we would have to conclude that the robbery/murder was done and dusted by around 8.00.

              So does Parry dash to rendezvous with his sidekick to collect his share of the spoils from wherever he’s waiting for him? No, he continues chatting at the Brine’s until 8.30. So does he then go and meet his sidekick? No he goes and buys cigarettes and a newspaper. Hardly an unavoidable task? So is it then off to meet the sidekick? Nope it’s off to Hignett’s to pick up his accumulator battery. Something he could have easily done the next day. This would have taken him to say 8.45. Then he goes to the Williamson’s for 10 minutes or so (another checkable alibi) by which time it’s around 9.00. His sidekick has been kicking his heels somewhere for the biggest part of an hour. Nothing Parry did that night speaks of any involvement in any way.

              We can also add that after going to see his sidekick and despite finding out that this simple robbery was now a murder and that the gallows were looming and despite being lumbered with a bloody mitten and murder weapon he turns up at Lily Lloyd’s looking and behaving perfectly normally and calmly. None of this is believable.

              But nothing in this case is as unbelievable than Parkes nonsense.

              It’s been said that Parry arrived at the garage at 11.00. I don’t know where this comes from. Parkes said the early hours of the morning. So Parry waits hours before deciding not to try cleaning the car himself (or with his accomplice) somewhere private. He chooses a garage where he’s neither welcome or trusted. As soon as Parkes sees the mitten (again, who uses a mitten in a robbery?) he immediately coughs. In a dimly lit 1930’s garage couldnt he have said that it was an old mitten that he used for painting or whatever? No, straight to a confession. Then, completely without prompting he tells this man (who has recently told him to his face that he didn’t trust him) where he’d hidden the murder weapon! And just to top it all off (and much to Rod’s annoyance when I pointed this out) at no point in the proceedings does Parry tell Parkes to keep his mouth shut. This story is nonsense. At very best it might have been Parry trying to drop Parkes in it with the police. And talking of the police. Can we really believe that the police were handed the killer on a plate and couldnt even be bothered to send an officer to check the drain. Not at all worried that someone else might do it and present the weapon to them or even to the press? And despite this fantastic story being common knowledge around the garage according to one of the Atkinson’s it never once seeps out to become widely known. And Parkes never breathes a word of this until he’s revealed by mystery man looking for a payout 50 years later!

              The Parkes story really should be recognised for the utter twaddle that it is.
              Regards

              Herlock




              “ Herlock is the cleverest man that I’ve ever met.” - Stephen Hawking.
              “ I wish that I could have achieved half as much as Herlock.”- Neil Armstrong.
              “ What a voice Herlock has.” - Luciano Pavarotti.
              “ I wish that I could dump Harry for Herlock.” - Meghan Markle.
              “ I know that it’s not good to be jealous but I just can’t help it.” - John Holmes.

              Comment


              • The innocuous actions weren't checked though. The alibi he gave for the night of the call was also easily checked and turned out to be nonsense.

                In regards to Parry we have:

                1. A confession which is known to be false.

                2. A statement from Lily Lloyd that she fudged a minor part of Gordon's alibi (of course when ensuring the evidence is seen all from one angle this will be discredited as her being jilted - though we know they kept in contact their entire life even after this).

                3. A statement that Parry's parents attempted to coerce friends into having him shipped off to another country (which you can choose to not believe, and also they may do this even if he's innocent but suspected).

                ---

                In any case, even with the single false alibi alone, there is proof that Parry's word as to his movements should not be taken at face value until proven to be true. Maybe he "was mistaken" about his days again for all we know?

                ---

                I think the mitten strengthens what Parkes said, because it's such an unusual thing. In a straight up lie I'd expect him to say it was a leather glove. If he was a proven liar then I'd be inclined towards the practical joke.

                Not sure about the rendezvous. There's two men in the house I think, not sure so much that Gordon is a getaway driver. Not sure so much when he would go to see them. But if Parkes is accurate then taking Parry's movements (which we shouldn't technically believe without proving, considering what I mentioned) as truthful, it looks strongly like he does not know what's happened until later and then panics. On the surface that is the impression, though of course it could be that he becomes anxious when he sees Parkes has found incriminating evidence...

                So if he's acting all innocent, then suddenly anxious and panicked, it seems most probable that it would be at the point where his behavior switched that he realized what had happened and how he was implicated.

                Parkes did not receive money for the statement, and given there were friends who knew about this tale - including those on Radio City - unless they are also liars then he did in fact tell people what had happened at the time.
                Last edited by WallaceWackedHer; 01-30-2020, 01:18 AM.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by WallaceWackedHer View Post

                  I think we're of one mind... I'm also uncertain about Parry's alibi. It doesn't 100% cover him from killing Julia by the way (just very strong - he'd have like 5 minutes if he did) but there's evidence from others that there was coercion at play:

                  Firstly Lily Lloyd admits to partially falsifying an alibi.

                  Secondly on Radio City (I think in the part I am missing - there are 4 parts I have 3), someone said when they were a child Parry's parents came over and tried convincing her parents to get Gordon out of the country.

                  So there's good evidence something like that could have gone on. But Phyllis Plant was also given as a name (we just don't have her statement - so she may well have left before 20:30 for all we know). If Phyllis was able to corroborate 20:30 that would be three people persuaded to lie for someone they know to be a probable murderer.

                  (It should be noted it was Leslie Williamson with whom he arranged a birthday party, it wasn't while at Brine's house.)

                  Furthermore, his recollection of movements after leaving Brine's are detailed and all very innocuous. They were never checked so they could be invented, but he discusses buying cigarettes, collecting an accumulator part for his car, etc... It's not until 11 at night that he goes to John Parkes.

                  Now, let's assume he really did go about his business buying cigarettes etc, it seems unlikely he would be doing this if he knew he was now involved in a murder and knew he had murder weapons (etc.) that he had to get rid of... To me, by the description of the tale given by Parkes, it seems like Parry received those murder instruments unexpectedly - hence his anxiety blurting out about the iron bar etc. So I think what happened is when he drove down to meet the accomplice(s) they dumped these things on him.

                  I'm not sure if the mitten was even worn but may have been grabbed and used to wipe down a blood-splattered weapon. I say this only because it seems peculiar to keep only one...yet OJ Simpson also had one singular glove in his car. Weird how that could go down - but I assume it's because the first glove they take off is taken off with a hand wearing a glove, it's when they take the second one off they'd be putting their bare hand on it. I haven't thought on it too much but very roughly something to do with that?

                  ---

                  As for the murder weapon if Wallace did it, I'm of the opinion it was likely never removed from the house at all.

                  If this is such a premeditated ingenious scheme, then surely he would have thought to wrap up the murder weapon in something like newspaper so he can do the deed, leave the item where he found it (throwing the newspaper into the fire or flushing it down the toilet of course), and not have to go out on a trip with an iron bar shoved up his sleeve.

                  But like I said I don't think a bad plan means it's necessarily not a real one. Wrapping it is the smartest choice, but whether or not someone would necessarily think of that is uncertain.
                  Yes, I find the fact that he continued to accumulate alibis later in the evening to be suspicious; it's almost as if he thought he might need them

                  Wallace had absolutely no need to remove or even hide the murder weapon. Thus, if he elects to kill Julia with the poker it will have his finger prints on it. But so what...It's his poker, which he must have used many times, of course it'll have his prints on! If there are no other prints on the poker apart from Julia's then he simply argues the assailant must have worn gloves. In fact, with any luck Parry may have used the poker during one of his many visits, even Marsden.

                  Just one of many errors from a supposed assailant who was supposed to be a criminal mastermind!

                  Comment


                  • Parry's alibi is hardly rock solid. I find it extremely odd that he spent 3 hours at Brine's house with a 15 year old boy! And, as I noted, Parry could have been having an affair witj Brine, and I don't think he would have had too much trouble persuading Denison to be economical with the truth. In fact, it's really no alibi at all. How did they no it was "around 8:30; the fact that they estimated proves that, at the very least, no one checked the clock.

                    And why would Parkes lie? No one on here has ever met him, so we're in no position to question his veracity. Dolly Atkinson, who did no him, his convinced he told the truth. Her opinion therefore takes precedence. And it's completely wrong that he didn't say a word for 50 years-he told the Atkinson's at the time, as confirmed by Dolly Atkinson.

                    Against Parry we have some sort of Marvel Comic super anti-hero. A man capable of avoiding blood splatter, despite the fact that the forensic experts said that the assailant would have had blood on him; the power to make murder weapons disappear; tge power to disguise his voice, to the extent it wouldn't be recognized by someone he'd known for years...unbelievable!

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by John G View Post

                      Yes, I find the fact that he continued to accumulate alibis later in the evening to be suspicious; it's almost as if he thought he might need them

                      Wallace had absolutely no need to remove or even hide the murder weapon. Thus, if he elects to kill Julia with the poker it will have his finger prints on it. But so what...It's his poker, which he must have used many times, of course it'll have his prints on! If there are no other prints on the poker apart from Julia's then he simply argues the assailant must have worn gloves. In fact, with any luck Parry may have used the poker during one of his many visits, even Marsden.

                      Just one of many errors from a supposed assailant who was supposed to be a criminal mastermind!
                      Very true about the weapon.

                      I recall Wallace said a wood chopper had been missing for 12 months and that was then found in a closet under the stairs, so it seems maybe the home is a tad cluttered and items tend to get lost - so I couldn't be positive anything really was missing. Goodman's claim the iron bar was later found is debatable given the police supposedly took the fireplace unit out of the wall (it was apparently under the fireplace the residents found it).

                      Wallace though, clearly has no need to remove anything if he himself battered Julia. In fact, it's dangerous to risk going out with an iron bar shoved up his sleeve or something.

                      My view is that Parry's movements on the murder day for the most part are probably true, up until later in the evening.

                      So the accumulator thing etc. I tend to believe, although like you said I don't think we should say with certainty a man proven to have falsified alibis is telling the truth about these movements. But I tend to think that is probably true.

                      Now assuming this is in fact a robbery plan, there are no mobile phones back then. If Gordon and his pals had arranged a late night meeting for when there's few people around to share the proceeds, Gordon won't know what's happened until word spreads to him or he meets these pals.

                      And then with Lily's partly false alibi for him, where she extends the time further back... If Parry has made her say he came to see her earlier, that very, very heavily suggests that during that time (from the faked time he saw Lily to the real one), he was doing something he really should not have been doing. So maybe this would be the point where he meets his pals, pushes the weapon down a grid on Priory Road etc.

                      Sadly we don't have testimony from people at Hignett's etc. as to what his behaviour was like even if he did arrive. I can only assume he was acting totally normal. But then something happens (finding out about Julia) and he becomes anxious... Even in a prank call scenario he would naturally become very anxious to hear that Julia has been murdered while Wallace was out looking for Menlove Gardens lol...

                      ---

                      I should add here, that I did some following up on the Redditor's suggestion that "Men Love" Gardens was chosen because Parry thought Wallace was "sexually odd".

                      I've checked for other similar addresses the person could have used, as if there are others it would (marginally) strengthen the idea the address was used for that reason.

                      And there is in my brief research, one right by Sefton Park:

                      Albert Road South, East and West. No North.

                      I'm not sure how I go about checking when streets were first built, but it looks like the caller had options in this respect if those roads were there at the time.

                      I will inquire with Liverpool locals to see if there are others. Google Maps doesn't allow wildcards for some reason so it's not easy to search * road north (etc.) for example.

                      Myself and my friend Josh have also considered a possibility the caller either used East by accident (confused East and West), or did not know there wasn't an East... The fact he gives the house number 25 suggests some familiarity (West is all odd numbers - its counterpart East therefore would be as well), but for example chess club member Deyes lived opposite the Gardens and didn't know there wasn't an East (just hadn't heard of it).
                      Last edited by WallaceWackedHer; 01-30-2020, 08:30 AM.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by WallaceWackedHer View Post

                        Very true about the weapon.

                        I recall Wallace said a wood chopper had been missing for 12 months and that was then found in a closet under the stairs, so it seems maybe the home is a tad cluttered and items tend to get lost - so I couldn't be positive anything really was missing. Goodman's claim the iron bar was later found is debatable given the police supposedly took the fireplace unit out of the wall (it was apparently under the fireplace the residents found it).

                        Wallace though, clearly has no need to remove anything if he himself battered Julia. In fact, it's dangerous to risk going out with an iron bar shoved up his sleeve or something.

                        My view is that Parry's movements on the murder day for the most part are probably true, up until later in the evening.

                        So the accumulator thing etc. I tend to believe, although like you said I don't think we should say with certainty a man proven to have falsified alibis is telling the truth about these movements. But I tend to think that is probably true.

                        Now assuming this is in fact a robbery plan, there are no mobile phones back then. If Gordon and his pals had arranged a late night meeting for when there's few people around to share the proceeds, Gordon won't know what's happened until word spreads to him or he meets these pals.

                        And then with Lily's partly false alibi for him, where she extends the time further back... If Parry has made her say he came to see her earlier, that very, very heavily suggests that during that time (from the faked time he saw Lily to the real one), he was doing something he really should not have been doing. So maybe this would be the point where he meets his pals, pushes the weapon down a grid on Priory Road etc.

                        Sadly we don't have testimony from people at Hignett's etc. as to what his behaviour was like even if he did arrive. I can only assume he was acting totally normal. But then something happens (finding out about Julia) and he becomes anxious... Even in a prank call scenario he would naturally become very anxious to hear that Julia has been murdered while Wallace was out looking for Menlove Gardens lol...

                        ---

                        I should add here, that I did some following up on the Redditor's suggestion that "Men Love" Gardens was chosen because Parry thought Wallace was "sexually odd".

                        I've checked for other similar addresses the person could have used, as if there are others it would (marginally) strengthen the idea the address was used for that reason.

                        And there is in my brief research, one right by Sefton Park:

                        Albert Road South, East and West. No North.

                        I'm not sure how I go about checking when streets were first built, but it looks like the caller had options in this respect if those roads were there at the time.

                        I will inquire with Liverpool locals to see if there are others. Google Maps doesn't allow wildcards for some reason so it's not easy to search * road north (etc.) for example.

                        Myself and my friend Josh have also considered a possibility the caller either used East by accident (confused East and West), or did not know there wasn't an East... The fact he gives the house number 25 suggests some familiarity (West is all odd numbers - its counterpart East therefore would be as well), but for example chess club member Deyes lived opposite the Gardens and didn't know there wasn't an East (just hadn't heard of it).
                        Yes, I agree Parry's alibis for later in the evening were probably correct, although he did seem intent on accumulating as many albis as possible that night. I wonder why?

                        The Goodman story is nonesense and uncorroborated. As you say, the police supposedly dismantled the fireplace. Moreover, the bar would still have been blood stained, which it wasn't, it was merelu described as rusty..

                        Regarding Wallace, why would he be crazy enough to think the Qualtrough plan would work? Thus, Close would pretty much have to arrive within a gloden few minutes. If he's early, the police will say he had enough time; if he's late, Wallace misses his tram, which would be disastrous, as the police would say that was because he was busy murdering his wife.

                        The problem his, Close didn't arrive at a set time, neither did he possess a watch, as far as I know, and Wallace couldn't be sure he'd have checked and accurately remembered the time anyway. In any event, Close did neither of those things: he simply lied. It was only because of Wildman's evidence that Wallace is alibied, something he couldn't possibly have foreseen.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by John G View Post
                          Parry's alibi is hardly rock solid. I find it extremely odd that he spent 3 hours at Brine's house with a 15 year old boy! And, as I noted, Parry could have been having an affair witj Brine, and I don't think he would have had too much trouble persuading Denison to be economical with the truth. In fact, it's really no alibi at all. How did they no it was "around 8:30; the fact that they estimated proves that, at the very least, no one checked the clock.

                          And why would Parkes lie? No one on here has ever met him, so we're in no position to question his veracity. Dolly Atkinson, who did no him, his convinced he told the truth. Her opinion therefore takes precedence. And it's completely wrong that he didn't say a word for 50 years-he told the Atkinson's at the time, as confirmed by Dolly Atkinson.

                          Against Parry we have some sort of Marvel Comic super anti-hero. A man capable of avoiding blood splatter, despite the fact that the forensic experts said that the assailant would have had blood on him; the power to make murder weapons disappear; tge power to disguise his voice, to the extent it wouldn't be recognized by someone he'd known for years...unbelievable!
                          Good point about the Brine timing precision. It's a shame we don't have Phyllis Plant's testimony (she may well have left before 8:30 and be unable to corroborate that part).

                          Thinking on the house number thing, it occurred to me that I don't think maps would show house numbers or whether streets are even or odd. Therefore the pick of 25 is either pot luck, or the caller has either been there before or used a directory.

                          In a directory I assume it would be much easier to find roads where there's a North South and West but no East (for example) if the whole "no East" thing was done on purpose.

                          In such a case the directory will be in alphabetical order, so someone looking for such an address by flicking through a directory would see Albert Road West East and South first - given it's an "A", it would be right near the start.

                          I'm not sure if that has any significance whatsoever but just throwing that out there anyway.

                          Comment


                          • I've come out of posting retirement - very briefly - to warn everyone to beware of commentators creating strawmen.

                            This is how Julia Wallace ends up in the parlour according to my interpretation of Accomplice (other variations are possible): "He glanced up to see the slight figure of Julia standing by the door, the sepia glow of the gas lamp illuminating the shocked expression on her face. Her instincts were always to avoid confrontation, and they prevailed even now. "Mr Qualtrough," she said faintly, her voice quivering with fear. "I forgot I'm due round at my neighbour's. I'm late as it is. You'll have to leave now." She turned, hoping it was the last time she would see the man, and grabbed a mackintosh from the coatstand in the hall. She draped it around her shoulders and headed to the front door. At this point the intruder should have bolted by the back door and left with the money as planned. This was the rational course of action, but Parry had unwittingly enlisted the services of a man with a short fuse whose response to confrontation was invariably the same: violence. Already angered by the perceived betrayal of the trifling spoils, he believed Julia was fleeing to raise the alarm. A primeval fight-or-die instinct flared up like a forest fire within him. Julia felt a grip tighten like a python around her left arm, pulling her back and then forcing her into the parlour. Paralysed by fear, she could not cry out, as if all the air in her lungs and been squeezed from her. Without saying a word, the intruder shoved her into the large armchair to the left of the fireplace. His eyes were crazed with panic and rage. Glancing down, he saw an iron bar standing on the hearth..." (Move to Murder, p. 124)

                            This is summarised by WWH as: "What she wouldn't do after finding out a stranger is not who he says he is (as per CCJ's idea), is go and cozy herself by the fire."

                            Now a brief point on Accomplice Plus (Parry the caller, Marsden the sneak thief, an unknown man the distractor). I like many points of this theory, but if Accomplice Plus is true, then Wallace is innocent, and when he says that Julia invariably bolted the backyard gate and bolted the back door, leaving Wallace to enter at the front when he returned at night, we should believe him. In which case, no duplicate key is going to get a second accomplice into the house through the back (the counter that the back door and gate were found unbolted by Wallace on his return is not effective because the killer almost certainly left by both). And Marsden cannot enter through the front because then he would be identified by Julia and the whole Qualtrough ruse would fall apart anyway.

                            At this point, if I had an agenda, I should just say "Unfortunately, Accomplice Plus is impossible" and leave it at that. However, I like the theory and there is a neat way to save it from this potential defeater. The distractor in the parlour asks to go the lavatory. Julia will almost certainly send him to the outside WC - meaning he has to unbolt the back door and is then able to unbolt the back gate, which is adjacent to the outside WC. The second accomplice (Marsden) is waiting in the entry and will enter the house a minute after the distrator has gone back inside. Good plan, eh?

                            However, this means Accomplice Plus borrows even more from Accomplice: "His words were exactly as Parry had instructed. 'I’m sorry to impose, Mrs Wallace, but can I use the lavatory?' As he expected, Julia directed him to the outside toilet, as she had done with Parry many times when he had called for musical afternoons." (Move to Murder, p. 122). Indeed, Accomplice Plus and Accomplice are identical on all the key evidentiary areas (Wallace = innocent, Parry = Caller, Brine = True, Parkes = True, Hall = mistaken) which means logically, for any reasonable person, Accomplice Plus cannot be the best (#1) and Accomplice the worst (#10). Of course, Accomplice Plus might be superior to Accomplice, and it might be the best overall theory, too.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by John G View Post

                              Yes, I agree Parry's alibis for later in the evening were probably correct, although he did seem intent on accumulating as many albis as possible that night. I wonder why?

                              The Goodman story is nonesense and uncorroborated. As you say, the police supposedly dismantled the fireplace. Moreover, the bar would still have been blood stained, which it wasn't, it was merelu described as rusty..

                              Regarding Wallace, why would he be crazy enough to think the Qualtrough plan would work? Thus, Close would pretty much have to arrive within a gloden few minutes. If he's early, the police will say he had enough time; if he's late, Wallace misses his tram, which would be disastrous, as the police would say that was because he was busy murdering his wife.

                              The problem his, Close didn't arrive at a set time, neither did he possess a watch, as far as I know, and Wallace couldn't be sure he'd have checked and accurately remembered the time anyway. In any event, Close did neither of those things: he simply lied. It was only because of Wildman's evidence that Wallace is alibied, something he couldn't possibly have foreseen.
                              Well with the bar, in fairness if it was wrapped (which I'd expect if Wallace did it), there wouldn't be blood stains - but then I wouldn't imagine he'd hide it either.

                              Regarding Close, if we assume Wallace is guilty then had Close come earlier he would simply have arrived at Menlove Gardens earlier (as it happens, he only had 10 minutes to spare).

                              However even if he killed Julia I don't think Alan Close was ever accounted for. If he was, and he was the be all and end all of the alibi, when cops asked Wallace who last saw Julia alive he's instantly going to say the milk boy. The milk boy didn't even come forward straight away did he? I think I saw he came on Sunday on the trial, though he told his pals on the Wednesday. He's a bit of a mess on the stand so I can't tell... But if he came Sunday, Wallace must surely have been sweating thinking his alibi is not going to say anything.

                              Wallace's plan if he killed Julia would be a little ridiculous. He destroys his own defence with a lot of his later statements. For example: say he left his home at 18:45, if he knows Alan is so vital (which even if guilty I don't think he accounted for), why wouldn't he fudge 5 minutes? The police could hardly deem him guilty/the courts could hardly hang him for being 5 minutes out on his time estimate!!!

                              He is also much better off with a more normal name and real address slightly further away to destroy the objections like "why didn't you check a directory in advance?" or "why didn't the bizarre name make you suspicious?"... And if he's going to use Qualtrough he's clearly attempting to frame Parry/Marsden....... But why? He says Julia would never admit strangers, only the cash box is ransacked.

                              Isn't it more likely he'd get away with a crime if he just looted Julia's handbag and obvious items instead of being like "oh yeah by the way the cash box was stolen from and only about 3 people know where I keep it."

                              Is he really THAT lucky that out of this tiny suspect pool he's forced upon the case the guy he names as his prime suspect just so happens to give a false alibi, and one of the others has "flu"? What are the odds?!

                              Is he smart enough to foresee the cafè being so perfect to frame Parry due to the chess fixtures being publicly visible and Parry having seen him there while he was at chess before?

                              I'd say unless he already knew for sure Parry and/or Marsden had no alibi (such as in a conspiracy) to know he could throw them under the bus, it would be utterly stupid to tighten the suspect pool to all of 3 or 4 people or w.e... I really don't think there's much chance at all of a solo Wallace theory.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by ColdCaseJury View Post
                                I've come out of posting retirement - very briefly - to warn everyone to beware of commentators creating strawmen.

                                This is how Julia Wallace ends up in the parlour according to my interpretation of Accomplice (other variations are possible): "He glanced up to see the slight figure of Julia standing by the door, the sepia glow of the gas lamp illuminating the shocked expression on her face. Her instincts were always to avoid confrontation, and they prevailed even now. "Mr Qualtrough," she said faintly, her voice quivering with fear. "I forgot I'm due round at my neighbour's. I'm late as it is. You'll have to leave now." She turned, hoping it was the last time she would see the man, and grabbed a mackintosh from the coatstand in the hall. She draped it around her shoulders and headed to the front door. At this point the intruder should have bolted by the back door and left with the money as planned. This was the rational course of action, but Parry had unwittingly enlisted the services of a man with a short fuse whose response to confrontation was invariably the same: violence. Already angered by the perceived betrayal of the trifling spoils, he believed Julia was fleeing to raise the alarm. A primeval fight-or-die instinct flared up like a forest fire within him. Julia felt a grip tighten like a python around her left arm, pulling her back and then forcing her into the parlour. Paralysed by fear, she could not cry out, as if all the air in her lungs and been squeezed from her. Without saying a word, the intruder shoved her into the large armchair to the left of the fireplace. His eyes were crazed with panic and rage. Glancing down, he saw an iron bar standing on the hearth..." (Move to Murder, p. 124)

                                This is summarised by WWH as: "What she wouldn't do after finding out a stranger is not who he says he is (as per CCJ's idea), is go and cozy herself by the fire."

                                Now a brief point on Accomplice Plus (Parry the caller, Marsden the sneak thief, an unknown man the distractor). I like many points of this theory, but if Accomplice Plus is true, then Wallace is innocent, and when he says that Julia invariably bolted the backyard gate and bolted the back door, leaving Wallace to enter at the front when he returned at night, we should believe him. In which case, no duplicate key is going to get a second accomplice into the house through the back (the counter that the back door and gate were found unbolted by Wallace on his return is not effective because the killer almost certainly left by both). And Marsden cannot enter through the front because then he would be identified by Julia and the whole Qualtrough ruse would fall apart anyway.

                                At this point, if I had an agenda, I should just say "Unfortunately, Accomplice Plus is impossible" and leave it at that. However, I like the theory and there is a neat way to save it from this potential defeater. The distractor in the parlour asks to go the lavatory. Julia will almost certainly send him to the outside WC - meaning he has to unbolt the back door and is then able to unbolt the back gate, which is adjacent to the outside WC. The second accomplice (Marsden) is waiting in the entry and will enter the house a minute after the distrator has gone back inside. Good plan, eh?

                                However, this means Accomplice Plus borrows even more from Accomplice: "His words were exactly as Parry had instructed. 'I’m sorry to impose, Mrs Wallace, but can I use the lavatory?' As he expected, Julia directed him to the outside toilet, as she had done with Parry many times when he had called for musical afternoons." (Move to Murder, p. 122). Indeed, Accomplice Plus and Accomplice are identical on all the key evidentiary areas (Wallace = innocent, Parry = Caller, Brine = True, Parkes = True, Hall = mistaken) which means logically, for any reasonable person, Accomplice Plus cannot be the best (#1) and Accomplice the worst (#10). Of course, Accomplice Plus might be superior to Accomplice, and it might be the best overall theory, too.
                                Julia didn't bolt the back door. I've read in a book Wallace said Julia bolted the yard door and being protected would thus not bolt the back door! Someone who jumped the yard wall would be able to get in with a dupe key.

                                I've thought of this before.

                                Also the stranger can unbolt it of course - but it is far better that he never ventures out into the kitchen.

                                As you posted here, the passage to me is legitimately almost impossible and it's not bias. Indeed my idea is very similar to yours but the differences I think make it impossible. Julia paralyzed by fear from making any sound while the guy drags her into the parlour (not disturbing any furniture in this struggle), and forces her down into the chair?

                                Come on man... You know that didn't happen. He would just bash her in the hallway... This is why it's last, I even put a note about it - it's a great idea but the way it's presented is impossible.

                                Plus Julia screamed when Mr. Cadwallader entered their bedroom at night. I mean I'm sure being grabbed is scarier but there's some slight evidence she wouldn't go mute.
                                Last edited by WallaceWackedHer; 01-30-2020, 09:27 AM.

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