The Croydon Poisonings

[barnflatwyngarde]

Thanks Barn!

I was just curious as to your thoughts on Grace's guilt.

My take on it was more that it had to be her by default.

The motive didn't sound very strong, and trite though it is to say, she just didn't seem the type.

Her guilt was the only explanation that made any sense.

A fascinating case and I agree, a brilliant book.

Good to see you back!

I hope you are fully recovered and reaping the benefits of a brand new knee!

I agree Ms D, in many ways Grace was the last person standing.
I don't think that Tom Sidney did it, whereas Grace had motive, if she did indeed have the hots for the doctor.
What is great about the case is that every book on the murders points the finger at someone different.
There is absolutely no consensus, which for true crime buffs like us is an absolute boon.

[Ms Diddles]

Hi Ms D, the wanderer has returned!
Apologies for my absence from this happy little community, but hospital beckoned, as did a new knee.
When I was recuperating I think I saw a post from you asking my views on whether I thought that Grace Duff was guilty as posited by Richard Whittington-Egan.
The short answer is yes.

I think that RWE makes a strong case against Grace as being the killer.
His book is one of my favourite true crime books, and I can recommend it to anyone.

I hope this finds you well.

Thanks Barn!

I was just curious as to your thoughts on Grace's guilt.

My take on it was more that it had to be her by default.

The motive didn't sound very strong, and trite though it is to say, she just didn't seem the type.

Her guilt was the only explanation that made any sense.

A fascinating case and I agree, a brilliant book.

Good to see you back!

I hope you are fully recovered and reaping the benefits of a brand new knee!

[barnflatwyngarde]

No worries, Herlock!

It's my fault for posting before I'd finished the book.

Yeah, it's definitely worth having a copy of RWE in your collection.

I picked it up as Barn had said something about it being one of his favourite true crime books.

I'm inclined to agree with him.

It's very well researched, well written and evocative of the period.

Hi Ms D, the wanderer has returned!
Apologies for my absence from this happy little community, but hospital beckoned, as did a new knee.
When I was recuperating I think I saw a post from you asking my views on whether I thought that Grace Duff was guilty as posited by Richard Whittington-Egan.
The short answer is yes.

I think that RWE makes a strong case against Grace as being the killer.
His book is one of my favourite true crime books, and I can recommend it to anyone.

I hope this finds you well.

[Fiver]

I hadn't heard of the case before, though apparently Agatha Christie wrote about it and the case inspired elements of some of her works. One person I haven't seen mentioned as a suspect, is Dr Elwell, who attended all three victims before their deaths and in the final case, prescribed the medicine that contained poison in the last dose of the bottle. It would require Elwell to be an opportunistic killer, finishing off patients who had already taken ill.

Possible motives might be:

* A sense of power.
* He was, as rumor claimed, having an affair with Grace Duff, and though it would help her.
* He mistook Grace's flirtation for genuine interest, then as a man "scorned", decided to eliminate members of her family to cause her pain and/or leave her as a suspect or worse.

[Herlock Sholmes]

No worries, Herlock!

It's my fault for posting before I'd finished the book.

Yeah, it's definitely worth having a copy of RWE in your collection.

I picked it up as Barn had said something about it being one of his favourite true crime books.

I'm inclined to agree with him.

It's very well researched, well written and evocative of the period.

It wasn’t that long ago that I got rid of my own copy because I have to have regular purges due to a lack of storage space but I regret getting rid of that one (tbh there are quite a few that I regret giving away). God knows how many books I’ve given to charity shops over the last 10 years. 2000 is my guess. I’d have kept pretty much every one if I could have. Last week I got rid of 44 or 45 books on the JFK assassination and I've got 5 bags for the charity shops in the spare room. That will leave me with around a 1000.

I just checked to see if the RWE is available on Kindle but it’s not. You’d think that a true crime classic would have been turned into an ebook by now? That said, i’m not a huge fan of ebooks but I can see the benefits. I’ve currently got 37 on my Kindle app and just 10 on Apple Books.

[Ms Diddles]

My apologies about the spoilers Ms D. I don’t know why it didn’t occur to me? I’m thinking about looking for a cheap copy of the RWE book and giving it another go at some point.

No worries, Herlock!

It's my fault for posting before I'd finished the book.

Yeah, it's definitely worth having a copy of RWE in your collection.

I picked it up as Barn had said something about it being one of his favourite true crime books.

I'm inclined to agree with him.

It's very well researched, well written and evocative of the period.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock,

Yeah, I agree that the RWE book is better written and evokes the time and place much better.

I haven't finished the Jane's book so I still haven't got to her conclusions yet.

Don't worry about your spoilers though, I'd read on this thread that suicide is going to be postulated in the case of Violet Sidney so it wasn't a complete surprise.

TBH I had found myself wondering if there could be a more innocent explanation for the deaths (accidental ingestion / natural causes) but I find it really hard to buy into the notion that Violet committed suicide.

It's rather trite to say but she just didn't sound like the type, and more pertinently she had stated after becoming sick that she thought she had been poisoned and the medicine tasted strange.

I find it hard to understand why anyone who had knowingly administered poison to themselves would do that.

You'd think she would worry about incriminating her family and would just go to bed, leave a note and expire quietly there.

I haven't got that far in the book though, so I should probably shut up about it until I've actually read Diane Janes conclusions!

My apologies about the spoilers Ms D. I don’t know why it didn’t occur to me? I’m thinking about looking for a cheap copy of the RWE book and giving it another go at some point.

[Ms Diddles]

Mark John Maguire's podcast They Got Away with Murder has an episode devoted to this case: "The Black Widow of Croydon: The Great Poisoning Mystery of 1929" (2020 Feb 25). I haven't watched it for years, so I don't remember details. I'll try to re-watch it today or tomorrow.

Thanks C.F.!

I'll see if I can look that out.

The Julian Fellowes TV doc sounds interesting too.

[Ms Diddles]

Hi Ms D. I only read that book around a month ago so it’s a bit of a coincidence you mentioning it. When I first became interested in true crime one of the very first books that I read was RWE’s on the case. I remember it having the same general cover design as Rumbelow’s JtR book. It’s been a long time (30+ years I’m guessing) but I’d say that I enjoyed his book more although I wasn’t entirely convinced of his solution (although I couldn’t dismiss it.) Janes illness/illness/suicide theory seems on the face of it to be a bit of a stretch but far from impossible. I certainly wouldn’t like to give a strong opinion on the one though. Another fence that I’m quite happy to sit on. I think that RWE captured the time and events better though. Janes came in too early with the legal proceedings imo. We need to hear some background and full story first before getting to investigation and legal stuff.

I might look into her other books at some point though. I’ve just started reading The Mount Stewart Murder by Chris Paton. It’s the UK’s oldest unsolved murder case (1866) It’s started well. Not too much waffle and no padding with excessive and irrelevant family detail stretching back to Agincourt.

Hi Herlock,

Yeah, I agree that the RWE book is better written and evokes the time and place much better.

I haven't finished the Jane's book so I still haven't got to her conclusions yet.

Don't worry about your spoilers though, I'd read on this thread that suicide is going to be postulated in the case of Violet Sidney so it wasn't a complete surprise.

TBH I had found myself wondering if there could be a more innocent explanation for the deaths (accidental ingestion / natural causes) but I find it really hard to buy into the notion that Violet committed suicide.

It's rather trite to say but she just didn't sound like the type, and more pertinently she had stated after becoming sick that she thought she had been poisoned and the medicine tasted strange.

I find it hard to understand why anyone who had knowingly administered poison to themselves would do that.

You'd think she would worry about incriminating her family and would just go to bed, leave a note and expire quietly there.

I haven't got that far in the book though, so I should probably shut up about it until I've actually read Diane Janes conclusions!

[C. F. Leon]

Mark John Maguire's podcast They Got Away with Murder has an episode devoted to this case: "The Black Widow of Croydon: The Great Poisoning Mystery of 1929" (2020 Feb 25). I haven't watched it for years, so I don't remember details. I'll try to re-watch it today or tomorrow.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I've recently read The Riddle of Birdhurst Rise by RWE as I'd spotted barnflatwyngarde's recommendation over on another thread.

It's a fascinating case and a brilliant book.

The story reads exactly like the plot of an Agatha Christie. It's uncanny.

I'm currently reading Diane Janes' "The Croydon Arsenic Mystery" (not as good as RWE) and wondered what others who had read these books thought.

Barn - Do you favour the Grace Duff dunnit theory?

To my mind this seems the likeliest solution, but I'm not entirely sure.

Hi Ms D. I only read that book around a month ago so it’s a bit of a coincidence you mentioning it. When I first became interested in true crime one of the very first books that I read was RWE’s on the case. I remember it having the same general cover design as Rumbelow’s JtR book. It’s been a long time (30+ years I’m guessing) but I’d say that I enjoyed his book more although I wasn’t entirely convinced of his solution (although I couldn’t dismiss it.) Janes illness/illness/suicide theory seems on the face of it to be a bit of a stretch but far from impossible. I certainly wouldn’t like to give a strong opinion on the one though. Another fence that I’m quite happy to sit on. I think that RWE captured the time and events better though. Janes came in too early with the legal proceedings imo. We need to hear some background and full story first before getting to investigation and legal stuff.

I might look into her other books at some point though. I’ve just started reading The Mount Stewart Murder by Chris Paton. It’s the UK’s oldest unsolved murder case (1866) It’s started well. Not too much waffle and no padding with excessive and irrelevant family detail stretching back to Agincourt.

[Ms Diddles]

I've recently read The Riddle of Birdhurst Rise by RWE as I'd spotted barnflatwyngarde's recommendation over on another thread.

It's a fascinating case and a brilliant book.

The story reads exactly like the plot of an Agatha Christie. It's uncanny.

I'm currently reading Diane Janes' "The Croydon Arsenic Mystery" (not as good as RWE) and wondered what others who had read these books thought.

Barn - Do you favour the Grace Duff dunnit theory?

To my mind this seems the likeliest solution, but I'm not entirely sure.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

If the authorities had behaved in a less gentlemanly manner towards the lady suspect and done what they should have done - which was to exhume the bodies of two of her earlier victims - the case against her would have been proven beyond all doubt.

[Mayerling]

Gosh, Jeff, ANOTHER three deaths in the same extended family! In the meantime Grace and her remaining offspring remain in blooming health, and Tom and the authorities would suspect nothing? Still no PM's or inquests? That would be extremely risky. I know Mary Ann Cotton used much the same method but you would hope things had moved on in the fifty odd years since those days. It would have served Grace right in that scenario if Tom had married again AND moved away!

Although I suggested doing it over a long period of time, you have a good point. Moreover if the police suggested to Tom to move far from his sister, they obviously had hard suspicions and would have been keeping a sharp eye out at what was going on afterwards.

Actually it would have served Grace right (if she was the killer and was aiming for that legacy) if Tom, to teach her a lesson, had announced he changed his will and was leaving the legacy to the Royal Family. She might have tried to go after King George V and his five surviving kids, and Queen Mary, but I think she'd have real problems getting at them. And even if she did....?

Jeff

[Rosella]

Gosh, Jeff, ANOTHER three deaths in the same extended family! In the meantime Grace and her remaining offspring remain in blooming health, and Tom and the authorities would suspect nothing? Still no PM's or inquests? That would be extremely risky. I know Mary Ann Cotton used much the same method but you would hope things had moved on in the fifty odd years since those days. It would have served Grace right in that scenario if Tom had married again AND moved away!