The Croydon Poisonings

[sdreid]

As best I can tell, Tom's book was Echoes of the Past and it looks like it was published in 1977. Grace died in 1973 at age 87 - no libel worries.

[SPDDrew]

Edmund's Writing

RWE mentions that Edmund had a small income from writing stories....has anyone ever read any?

[SPDDrew]

Tom's Book

I have a copy of Tom's book, some passages appear virtually unchanged in RWE's book if memory serves

[SPDDrew]

The Fellowes Program

While entertaining and interesting to watch I don't think it stands up to even the most cursory of scrutiny when it comes to factual accuracy.

[Rosella]

^ Yes, I agree. I often think in that series Fellowes just decided to point to a possible murderer, simply because he could!

[sdreid]

I was thinking about this case the other day and wound up sort of tranfering my theory to the Bravo Case but I'll go ahead and post it here as another very slight possibility.

There has always pretty much been a theory that Violet murdered the first two then killed herself. What if she killed the first two then poisoned herself to remove herself as a suspect and throw suspicion on someone else? That is, she poisoned herself with what she thought was less than a fatal dose but mistakenly took too much. Again, only a tiny possibility; mainly because Violet wasn't a suspect at the time, in fact, the deaths weren't even known to be murders at time.

[Rosella]

What possible motive could she have, however, for murdering Vera? She certainly didn't care for her son in law but surely (unless she was completely insane) she would have guessed that Edmund's death may have been regarded as suspicious. (Even though it wasn't for some months, as we know.) In those circumstances Edmund's nearest and dearest, specifically his wife, would have been in the firing line. Anyway, I just can't see the elderly Violet creeping round the Duff cellars treating a bottle or two of beer to some arsenic.

As for Vera, mother and daughter were exceptionally close. Even if Vera suspected her mother of murder I don't believe she would ever have told anyone. Violet was apparently anti-suicide (regarded as a crime then) and quite religious. She became depressed after Vera's death and told her servant she didn't know how she could go on. She did, though. I do think she may have had an inkling it was Grace who had caused her husband's death.

[belinda]

That's really interesting Stan. What about motive?

[sdreid]

That's really interesting Stan. What about motive?

Hi Belinda:

I actually think Grace is the most likely culprit but I just thought this scenario was slightly possible.

As for motive, she disliked Duff and thought he was bad for her daughter. Regarding Vera, that's very difficult but I can think of three rather nebulous ones. (1)She was just a homicidal maniac so she didn't need a reason. (2)There was some friction between her and Vera that we know nothing about. (3)She knew or feared that Vera knew she killed her son-in-law. In this last case, it would have to be feared otherwise Vera would have figured out what was going on and spilled the beans as soon as she became sick.

[Mayerling]

I believe that Grace Duff murdered her mother and sister for monetary reasons, and have done so ever since reading 'The Riddle of Birdhurst Rise' about twenty five years ago. Surely though the premise that Tom Sidney took his wife and family off to live in the U.S. on the advice of Scotland Yard is rather flawed?

Unless the inheritance from Mrs Sidney, Tom's mother, was tied up in some way, surely there would be no pecuniary advantage in Grace killing her brother? If he died suddenly in some mysterious way the money he had would be left to his wife and family, you would think.

Maybe both Tom and Scotland Yard had the feeling that Grace was getting used to the poisoning process and was going to kill again, just for the hell of it!

Hi Rosella,

There is a circuitous way Grace would gain the inheritance from Mrs. Sidney. Instead of going straight at Tom, she goes after his wife and family - in a measured time sequence (over a long period - to TRY to quell suspicions), and when they are gone (unless Tom leaves his estate to the Royal Family or to some major charity that Grace can't touch) his death will lead to her getting the inheritance. Since the other killings may have been set up in any order like this (to hide the motive and actual target as much as possible) the killer would use the same method trying to get Tom.

Jeff

[Rosella]

Gosh, Jeff, ANOTHER three deaths in the same extended family! In the meantime Grace and her remaining offspring remain in blooming health, and Tom and the authorities would suspect nothing? Still no PM's or inquests? That would be extremely risky. I know Mary Ann Cotton used much the same method but you would hope things had moved on in the fifty odd years since those days. It would have served Grace right in that scenario if Tom had married again AND moved away!

[Mayerling]

Gosh, Jeff, ANOTHER three deaths in the same extended family! In the meantime Grace and her remaining offspring remain in blooming health, and Tom and the authorities would suspect nothing? Still no PM's or inquests? That would be extremely risky. I know Mary Ann Cotton used much the same method but you would hope things had moved on in the fifty odd years since those days. It would have served Grace right in that scenario if Tom had married again AND moved away!

Although I suggested doing it over a long period of time, you have a good point. Moreover if the police suggested to Tom to move far from his sister, they obviously had hard suspicions and would have been keeping a sharp eye out at what was going on afterwards.

Actually it would have served Grace right (if she was the killer and was aiming for that legacy) if Tom, to teach her a lesson, had announced he changed his will and was leaving the legacy to the Royal Family. She might have tried to go after King George V and his five surviving kids, and Queen Mary, but I think she'd have real problems getting at them. And even if she did....?

Jeff

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

If the authorities had behaved in a less gentlemanly manner towards the lady suspect and done what they should have done - which was to exhume the bodies of two of her earlier victims - the case against her would have been proven beyond all doubt.

[Ms Diddles]

I've recently read The Riddle of Birdhurst Rise by RWE as I'd spotted barnflatwyngarde's recommendation over on another thread.

It's a fascinating case and a brilliant book.

The story reads exactly like the plot of an Agatha Christie. It's uncanny.

I'm currently reading Diane Janes' "The Croydon Arsenic Mystery" (not as good as RWE) and wondered what others who had read these books thought.

Barn - Do you favour the Grace Duff dunnit theory?

To my mind this seems the likeliest solution, but I'm not entirely sure.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I've recently read The Riddle of Birdhurst Rise by RWE as I'd spotted barnflatwyngarde's recommendation over on another thread.

It's a fascinating case and a brilliant book.

The story reads exactly like the plot of an Agatha Christie. It's uncanny.

I'm currently reading Diane Janes' "The Croydon Arsenic Mystery" (not as good as RWE) and wondered what others who had read these books thought.

Barn - Do you favour the Grace Duff dunnit theory?

To my mind this seems the likeliest solution, but I'm not entirely sure.

Hi Ms D. I only read that book around a month ago so it’s a bit of a coincidence you mentioning it. When I first became interested in true crime one of the very first books that I read was RWE’s on the case. I remember it having the same general cover design as Rumbelow’s JtR book. It’s been a long time (30+ years I’m guessing) but I’d say that I enjoyed his book more although I wasn’t entirely convinced of his solution (although I couldn’t dismiss it.) Janes illness/illness/suicide theory seems on the face of it to be a bit of a stretch but far from impossible. I certainly wouldn’t like to give a strong opinion on the one though. Another fence that I’m quite happy to sit on. I think that RWE captured the time and events better though. Janes came in too early with the legal proceedings imo. We need to hear some background and full story first before getting to investigation and legal stuff.

I might look into her other books at some point though. I’ve just started reading The Mount Stewart Murder by Chris Paton. It’s the UK’s oldest unsolved murder case (1866) It’s started well. Not too much waffle and no padding with excessive and irrelevant family detail stretching back to Agincourt.