Meredith Kercher case

[jason_c]

After reading this thread it looks as if Amanda Knox is turning into Louise Woodward.

[Garry Wroe]

The problem with shoddy investigations followed by incompetent trials is that no-one wins. If Knox was in some way culpable for Meredith’s rape and murder, such circumstances serve only to engender public sympathy and may even result in a guilty woman walking free. Similarly, the Kercher family deserve closure. They deserve to know the truth and see justice served. As things stand, they appear to have been done a huge disservice by the Italian authorities, irrespective of Knox’s guilt or innocence.

Contrary to the assumptions of some posters, investigative and judicial incompetence are issues that are not confined to Italy. What about OJ Simpson, or the way in which Michael Jackson subverted American justice by the simple expedient of buying off the chief prosecution witness? Here in the UK, we’ve had the cases of the Guildford bombers and Barry George. Then we have the mothers convicted of infanticide solely on the belief of an ‘expert’ paediatrician that ‘one cot-death in a family is a tragedy, two is suspicious, and three is murder’. But all of these examples pale into insignificance when one examines the Belgian case involving Marc Dutroux.

Without seeing all of the evidence, it is impossible to formulate a concrete opinion about Amanda Knox. Whether she is a convenient scapegoat or the scheming murderess that the prosecution would have us believe, the one undeniable truth is that Italian jurisprudence is unfit for purpose. As such, Knox’s conviction can never be considered safe.

Regards.

Garry Wroe.

[John Hacker]

Does this TV documentary contain sinister music at appropriate moments?

A more in depth analysis of the case woud be found in court transcripts, either in Italian or English. Its interesting to note that posters lambasting the media are the same ones now using media reports as proof of innocence.

The first lesson of "Ripperology" is to take media reports with a grain of salt.

Yep. Transcripts would be more useful, but none are available so we have to make do with what we got.

For an overview of what was actually presented at trial "truejustice" does have a series of articles summarizing the prosecutions case day by day and it definately needs to be taken with more than a grain of salt (it's not a site for unbiased or rational information), but even if taken at face value the prosecutions case is still incredibly feeble and impossible to take seriously.

[jason_c]

Does this TV documentary contain sinister music at appropriate moments?

A more in depth analysis of the case woud be found in court transcripts, either in Italian or English. Its interesting to note that posters lambasting the media are the same ones now using media reports as proof of innocence.

The first lesson of "Ripperology" is to take media reports with a grain of salt.

[Malkmus]

Hi, guys... Had been loosely interested in this case since hearing about it maybe a year ago and started becoming more interested in the last weeks, but it wasn't until today that i started digging deeper in to the details.
My immediate reaction was that this was another case of someone likely innocent who was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Then I was on another forum and started reading about her contradicting stories and I started to think, well that's fishy, maybe she did do it.
And then I happened across that 48 Hour mystery special and your guys' comments and I AM SICK.
It boggles my mind that this is happening to someone and the nightmare they must have to live in every day. I also find it very disheartening that the people who are so sure of Amanda's guilt resort to childish tactics like snide comments about her demeanor and using her nickname in a derogatory manner.

I have to say the biggest piece of evidence in all this that makes me certain of her innocence (and her boyfriend), is the involvement of Rudy Guédé. Before I knew the details of the story I had an impression that all the defendants were basically well-acquainted college students. But Rudy is so clearly left-field that it puts everything in context.

I thought to myself what is more likely:

A: That Amanda and Raffaele somehow befriended a known drug dealer and thief, and planned a sex orgy with her roommate where they knew they were going to kill her? Oh, and by the way, before they all met up Raffaele made sure to bring the kitchen knife along to this pre-meditated orgy that he would inexplicably just bring back home with him instead of tossing in to a dumpster or body of water.

or B: That Amanda and Raffaele, two kids in school, were at Raffaele's place smoking dope while Rudy Guédé, a known criminal (who did not know the two students but did know people living near Amanda's apartment) broke in and raped and murdered Meredith.

One of these scenarios happens everyday. The other happens in movies and crime novels.

[The Good Michael]

Thanks Archie,

Wether or not she's guilty, if that is actual Italian method at work, it is disgraceful. There might be visible behavior patterns in people, but they are not always constant within a group, and vary greatly by age, social background, emotion, and even nationality. Those Italians must have studied Skinner too long.

Cheers,

Mike

[Archaic]

Italian Official Explains That "Behavior = Guilt"

For those of you who don't have time to watch the full-length documentaries, news clips, etc. on this case, here is a 30-second excerpt that will give you a startling insight into how "guilt was established" in this case.

This is the head of Italy's 'Serious Crime' division explaining that they established guilt in this case by watching things like behavior and expression during the interrogation, as that told them everything they needed to know.

He actually states that because they are such incredibly sophisticated interrogators they don't need to rely on any other method of criminal investigation!!

Translation: they don't need pesky things like facts, believable motives and physical evidence.

It's only 30 seconds long, please watch and see what you think. Personally, I found it absolutely astounding.

"Behavior = Guilt Interview": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWkZPWRS3N0

Best regards, Archaic

Note:The whole interview with this official & a number of others is on the 48 hrs doc if you are interested.

[Ally]

Ally,


The bar owner who was exonerated is a Congolese, the boyfriend is Italian, the other murderer Rudy Guede is from the Ivory Coast and the American woman Knox since all of the accussed have different nationalities why do you choose to defend ONLY the American woman. Why is that ? biased ? I think you are biased.

And I think you are weak-minded and a borderline irrational, incapable of a coherent argument as well as prone to making up evidence that suits your whim, but my personal opinion of you is as probably relevant to you as your is to me, which is to say not at all. The alleged phone calls between Guede and Knox are total BS and you know it. This was not at all mentioned at trial and is just one more example of hysterical media making up facts and gullible gossip mongering people like you choosing to believe it.

As for why I am focusing on Knox, it's because she is the one EVERYONE is focusing on including YOUR italian media. If you actually read my earlier post I mentioned sollecito and said that his life was equally ruined but no one was talking about him because he's not worth mentioning because he's not a "she-devil, sex crazed whore" like KNox so it's hardly entertaining. I am well aware, and have said so, that if he is innocent, his life has been destroyed as well by the media and the insane and laughable joke of a prosecutor, but since YOUR OWN country is more interested in the American than the Italian, why do you expect mine to be any different? She makes a much better story.

I find it interesting that you claim ours is a pro-American interest, while denying any anti-American bias at work. You do like to have it both ways don't you?

[John Hacker]

The bar owner who was exonerated is a Congolese, the boyfriend is Italian, the other murderer Rudy Guede is from the Ivory Coast and the American woman Knox since all of the accussed have different nationalities why do you choose to defend ONLY the American woman. Why is that ? biased ? I think you are biased.

I'd like a swing at this too :-)

The focus on Knox in this case is a direct result of Migini's insane obsession with her. He chose to paint her as the center of a murderous triangle so the coverage on both sides tends to focus on her.

As for the others, the case against Sollecito is as non-existant as the one against Knox. There's no reason to suspect either of them at this point.

Lumumba was clearly not involved and no matter what pressures were put upon her, Knox DOES have to answer for implicating him. It was inexcusible.

Guede... The guy whose prints were everywhere... Whose DNA was on her body... With a history of knife carrying... burglery... Who would defend the guilty? The only thing you can really say here is that the killer of Kercher got off a lot more lightly than he deserved. And he probably would have gotten an appropriate punishment if not for the deranged fantasies of Migini which prevented him from focusing on the guilty in his pursuit of 2 people that were almost certainly not involved.

[JennyL]

The bar owner who was exonerated is a Congolese, the boyfriend is Italian, the other murderer Rudy Guede is from the Ivory Coast and the American woman Knox since all of the accussed have different nationalities why do you choose to defend ONLY the American woman. Why is that ? biased ? I think you are biased.

I'm not Ally and I'm sure she can and will reply for herself but as I feel the same way the accusation could be leveled at me. So here's my answer:

I "choose to defend ONLY the American woman" because SHE is--brace yourself--the ONLY one in the media being called satanist, witch, she-devil, evil, you name it. Apparently Knox is seen as a psychopath the likes of which puts Susan Atkins to shame. Oh, and speaking of Susan Atkins-and Leslie Van Houten and Patricia Krenwinkel-those American women were actually acting out in court the supposed insane grinning evil that Amanda Knox gives off with her every cough, yet to my knowledge they never came in for the kind of wild invective that Knox has-unreal!

I talk about her because I do see bias: a largely irrational, xenophobic bias against a young woman from an "arrogant" country who is "depraved"(has sex!), who is a "degenerate"(smoked some pot! A college student! Unbelievable!)...and it's dismissed as typical US arrogance that she's supported by people who think she might be innocent of murder. I'll tell you something I do believe about Americans: we are by and large mutts, whose families came from everywhere else(including Italy), we are the melting pot-and as a result most of us feel a kinship for the rest of the world that I daresay that world doesn't understand or wouldn't believe in.

Bottom line: if Knox were Italian I'd have the same reservations and disbelief at the railroading here.

Nowhere have I seen anyone in the EU or other press even mention her onetime boyfriend-the Italian. He was found guilty too. And then there's Guede, the actual and only murderer imho, the guy with a record, the one whose adult behavior fits a much more likely and plausible rape-murder scenario than a college roomie and her recent boyfriend do.

But no, you'd think the case was only concerning Knox. Totally fair and unbiased. Sure.

[John Hacker]

I used to believe the same, im not so sure now. The evidence against them is more substantial than stated by some on this forum. And the criticizing of the Italian judicial system by some of Knox's supporters will not help her case.

More substantial? Perhaps. But in the same way paper towels are more substantial than Kleenex. Stronger? Yeah. Strong? No.

Outside of the supposed oddness of their behavior and the constant wackiness of the prosecution in slamming Knox's character to distract from the paucity of evidence or a rational explination of what occurred we have:

1) A knife with Knox's DNA on the handle and allegedly that of Kercher near the tip... that the judge's independent expert felt was inconsistent with some of the and that the DNA count on the tip was too low to be realiable. As well as concerns about the testing methodology.

2) The bra clasp allegedly with Sollecito's DNA. Given the video of it being collected it's hard to argue that should be given any weight whatsoever.

3) Instances of "mixed" DNA in 3 places in the flat. This is the strongest evidence by far, but since she lived there her DNA was likely to be everywhere and without a detailed scientific report regarding the exact nature of the evidence I'm not inclined to grant this much weight given that the crime scene "experts" complete lack of understanding of how to take samples or prevent contamination.

4) The footprint alleged to belong to Sollecito that was inconsistent with his foot which had a hammer toe.

The biggest problem with the case IMO is that the police and prosecution have zero credibility given their incompetance and apparent insanity respectively. Migini's rantings in particular turned what should have been a serious trial on the merits of the evidence into a bad joke. Even his insistence that the crime happened in a "drug fueled" state shows he doesn't even understand the effects of the most common drug out there. If marijuana led to murderous rages and dead roomates college campuses would look like inner city Detroit.

And as far as I can tell, no one has been able to offer a single case that even vaguely parallels what is alleged to have happened here. 3 adults, 2 of whom have no violent history, with minimal prior association deciding to kill someone close to one of them for a laugh. If we're to take the "evidence" on it's face it HAS to be premeditated. They would have had to have brought a kitchen knife.

It's easy to say that the disgust by which many view this trial is "anti-Italian" sentiment, but I for one had no problems with their system until I got a good look at it and what I've seen doesn't make me feel like Justice was done here. I've got plenty of criticism for the US system as well (elected judges and prosecutors are an abominaton IMO) and I just call 'em like I see 'em.

It's hard to believe that national sentiment didn't play into at least one part of this tragedy. 6 of the 8 jurors were wearing Italian flag pins.

[Archaic]

I suggest you are driven by emotion and strong nationalistic feelings not critical and analitical thinking, you are not looking at the facts and the evidence which in the end, its what is left after you sift the wheat from the shaft, not the fantasy mounted by the parents of one of the murderers. And in the end, this is what is going to prevail.

I assure you, I am NOT driven by nationalistic sentiments, and I find that accusation extremely offensive- in fact, it's quite insulting. You obviously don't know me, or my views, or even how many English friends I have. I value all human lives, not only American ones.
What I wanted all along and still want now is justice for the victim, Meredith.

That's why I believed the little bits of "evidence" I had heard against her fellow students- it made absolutely zero difference to me that one was American and the other Italian.
If they are guilty, I want them to go to prison- and for a hell of a lot longer than 25 or 26 years! As I explained previously, I had absolutely NO sympathy for them until I heard some new information a few days ago. Now I am shocked at what has happened.

>Did you even bother to watch that '48 hours' documentary with its interviews of the 2 authors who experienced the Inquisition-style Italian Police interrogation methods first-hand? (They said they were ready to crack and confess to anything- and this was 2 grown men after about 3 hours of questioning.)

>Did you bother to watch the Police video of the NON-bloody bathroom and see the photo of the bathroom that the jury was shown? It looked like a scene from a horror film.

> Have you seen the Italian Police video showing them mishandling & contaminating evidence, even leaving a key piece, the bra clasp, it on the floor for 6-1/2 weeks- during which time their own police video shows that it oddly somehow changed position? (Gee, i wonder how that happened?) Funny thing is, only then was it collected- after being passed around, right on film, by hands that were touching other objects- then tested and "proven" to have Raffaele's DNA all over it!

(I'm not sure I posted that police video, but I'll go find it & post it for everyone here to examine for themselves.)

[B]>Why didn't Guede ever mention that they other 2 were with him they were??[/B

This occult stuff is utter baloney. If he & Raffaele exchanged any phone calls, it was probably because Guede was well-known as the local pot dealer.

Guede broke in, assaulted Meredith, murdered her, and fled the country. He was probably high on something much stronger than marijuana and he was known to make a living from drug-dealing and burglary. He was also known to carry a knife.

Do you really think Guede would undergo extradition for murder and then simply not bother to inform on 2 people he barely knew in order to get a reduced sentence?

How is it justice for Meredith if her killer Guede gets a sentence of only 30 years? Do you think he deserves to be out on parole in 15 or 20 years? I don't. I'd give him life in prison, no parole.

How is it justice for Meredith's if her two college friends are convicted of a crime that there's no reason to believe they committed?

If Amanda and Raffaele REALLY killed her and this can BE PROVEN VIA EVIDENCE- not rumor, gossip, and perverse gothic fantasies- then I say they each deserve life in prison; throw away the key.

How is Meredith supposed to rest in peace if there is no justice for her horrible murder?
In my opinion it's like victimizing her all over again.

Best regards, Archaic

[jason_c]

I'm just looking at the evidence and there simply isn't any to support a conviction. I know it's not as exciting a story as the "Extreme Rent Sex Manga Jelousy" theory, but what the evidence suggests here is your basic sexual assault ending in death perpetrated by a single attacker.

And it is hardly over and done with. I would be very suprised if either Knox or Sollecito were in prison after the first round of appeals and shocked if they were after the second. (If reached)

I used to believe the same, im not so sure now. The evidence against them is more substantial than stated by some on this forum. And the criticizing of the Italian judicial system by some of Knox's supporters will not help her case.

[John Hacker]

John Hacker

And Amanda Knox didn't tell any lies... okay. But this is all over and done with.
the case is OVER. She is in jail where she belongs and the rest of this is superfluous. You believe Knox's lies but at the end of the day the people who counted saw through her lies.

I'm just looking at the evidence and there simply isn't any to support a conviction. I know it's not as exciting a story as the "Extreme Rent Sex Manga Jelousy" theory, but what the evidence suggests here is your basic sexual assault ending in death perpetrated by a single attacker.

And it is hardly over and done with. I would be very suprised if either Knox or Sollecito were in prison after the first round of appeals and shocked if they were after the second. (If reached)

[scarletpimpernel]

John Hacker

And Amanda Knox didn't tell any lies... okay. But this is all over and done with.
the case is OVER. She is in jail where she belongs and the rest of this is superfluous. You believe Knox's lies but at the end of the day the people who counted saw through her lies.