Meredith Kercher case

[scarletpimpernel]

Ally,

Another thing I forgot to mention was that in the Italian court system you can either choose to have a fast-track trial, like the one Guede chose to have earlier on, or a long winded trial, like the one that Knox and her Italian boyfriend chose. This is why Guede's sentence was processed a lot earlier than Knox's and Sollecito's but in the end, the result is the same, it doesn't matter how many experts and clever lawyers you pay and you bring to your trial if you are telling lies, you will be found out and the result will be exactly the same. During this time, Knox's parents spend their time contracting a media handler to put them in all the chat shows in America, like Oprah, Montel, or Faux news where the only ones to stay silent over the course of the past two years as the rift over Knox's guilt poisoned international debate and garnered tawdry headlines where Meredith Kercher family. " The elegance of Silence " their attorney commented at the end of the trial. Their behaviour in contrast was very dignified.

The bar owner who was exonerated is a Congolese, the boyfriend is Italian, the other murderer Rudy Guede is from the Ivory Coast and the American woman Knox since all of the accussed have different nationalities why do you choose to defend ONLY the American woman. Why is that ? biased ? I think you are biased.

[John Hacker]

The story of the alleged calls between Knox and Guede appears to be a just a load of hooey. It's was reported on "truejustice.org" (A site that resembles some of the more outlandish suspect threads here, except instead of people countering crazy speculation with logic everyone sits back and cheers the most rediculous reasoning) and has turned up in stories who don't do fact checking. It certainly never surfaced at trial. A lot of what appears on "truejustice" appears to be rumor at best, and deliberate misinformation at worst.

What was introduced regarding the cellphones was that they were turned off earlier in the evening than was normal. Not exactly damning.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/story?id=7131195&page=1

The only association between Guede and Knox/Sollecito is that Guede was apparently friends with some people living in another flat in the same building as Kercher.

No matter how it's spun, the police seriously muffed the collection of evidence in this case and the scant forensic evidence should be given zero credibility. If you want to see the keystone cops in action, take a look at this video of the collection of the bra clasp some 45 days after the crime. It's certainly enlightening as to the standards they operated under.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMaTI0SiuLw

[scarletpimpernel]

Ally,

In answer to your question about the phone records which show Knox spoke to Rudy Guede " several times " before and after the murder. You can find it on the Independent Newspaper 6th of December 2009, page 11 an article written by Greg Walton.

Also, regarding why the murderers were not given a life sentence in prison, it was a consession that was done due to their youth. About my comments earlier, you are refusing to see the evidence. Mobile phone records Ally, those do not lie. Why do you prefer to believe this other nonsense of witchcraft leveled at serious detective work, the jury and the Italian courts ? Listen to yourself ! For you, everyone is at fault except Knox's LIES. She lied about the bar owner being there at the scene of the crime, when in fact, it was her friend Rudy Guede, the one who was there with Knox and also her boyfriend. Through these phone records the police were able to trace Guede, his DNA was in Meredith vagina, Sollecito's DNA was on the victim's brassiere and Knox's DNA was on the handle of the murder weapon plus the victim's DNA was on the BLADE. Of course, Knox's defense team would say that it wasn't so, but then, they would say that, since that is damning evidence, except that blood is not that easy to get rid of.

Another thing that everyone should know, is that Meredith Kercher practiced Karate, so only just one assailant wouldn't have been enough to subdue and kill her. The bruises on both of her shoulders indicate that she was held down. When you only find lies from the accussed, the police relied on the mobile phone records, this is how they were able to exonerate Mr. Lumumba because his mobile phone records indicated that he had text Knox from his bar to tell Knox not to come to work that night. Knox is a callus woman who didn't give a fig, if Mr. Lumumba served a life sentence on her say so, if the police had believed her lies, this is time an innocent man would be serving a 30 year sentence. Can't you see that ?

It is the character of the person that plays a part here to be believed or not Ally. Knox told serious lies. She is a liar and a murderer and deserves to be where she is.

[Ally]

[QUOTE=scarletpimpernel;109282]Archaic, Ally and the rest.

There is more damning evidence against these three which are:

Phone records show Knox spoke to Rudy Guede several times before and after the murder. Guede was also sentenced to 30 years in prison for his role in the killing.

Really. She spoke to him? Well toss her ass in jail. Could you provide a link to these alleged phone calls? I mean considering the police were tapping her phone from almost day one after the murder, and much is made of her conversations with Sollecito, I find it incredible that details of her conversations with Guede, who has now been convicted of the murder isn't splashed all over the news as well.

I suggest you are driven by emotion and strong nationalistic feelings not critical and analitical thinking, you are not looking at the facts and the evidence which in the end, its what is left after you sift the wheat from the shaft, not the fantasy mounted by the parents of one of the murderers. And in the end, this is what is going to prevail.

Actually I don't have many strong nationalistic feelings as I am not a person defined by country. But thanks for attempting to portray me as a hysteric because you can't actually argue the facts. I am perfectly capable of sorting the wheat from the chaff, thanks, that's what I am doing. And so far, I think the Italian media has done a worse job of promoting a fantasy about this girl than her family has.

[Ally]

[QUOTE=caz;109289]Hi Ally,

This astounds me. If one has no evidence against someone, one has no business even suspecting that they are guilty, never mind KNOWING it. What can possibly be behind such knowledge? Psychic ability?

Well considering psychic knowledge and no evidence appears to have convicted this girl, I guess it's not that far-fetched but I was referring specifically to a case here in the States where a man's wife went missing. He was a police officer named Drew Peterson. The wife he had while courting Stacey (the current missing wife) had died under mysterious circumstances that was ruled accidental drowning in her home bathtub after another police officer who personally knew Drew was on the coroners jury and personally assured the other jurists Drew would never kill anyone despite several domestic violence calls that had gone uninvestigated (because of his police officer status). So the death was ruled accidental. Flash forward to Stacey. She has two young kids and after planning to leave Drew, she vanishes without a trace or without a phone call to her parents or her family she was very close to. A neighbor says that a day after Stacey was last seen, he helped Drew move a large blue barrel out of his garage and into his truck.

He'll never be convicted of murdering his Stacey (although he might be convicted of murdering Kathleen since she was disinterred and a new autopsy and a new coroner ruled it homicide instead of accidental drowning). But really, yes, I think the evidence as known is sufficient for most people to say that they "know' he did it. Which is not in anyway the same thing as saying there is PROOF he did it.

Trouble is, all we’ve been shown are pictures of Knox grinning in court like a naïve fifteen year old. She is a grown woman and presumably of reasonable intelligence. Guilty or not, what the heck was she doing GRINNING in the context of Meredith’s dreadful last minutes on earth?

I am sorry this is the kind of shoddy accusation that makes me nuts. This trial has stretched on FOR YEARS. Are you telling me, that in the entire length of that time, this women is never allowed to smile again, laugh again or have any kind of expression on her face other than horror, terror, remorse or anguish. I sincerely doubt that times she's caught grinning in court have been related to descriptions of bloody death or Meredith struggling. She's smiling at people who smile at her, who support her, she smiles at seeing her family. Things that ALL of us might do spontaneously if we were trapped in jail accused by a kangaroo court of a crime we didn't commit.

There is not a single report of this girl cackling hysterically while Meredith's dreadful last minutes on earth are described. He smiles are all in context of seeing people and talking to people who she views as friends and allies.

How about the rights of British students living in a foreign country not to be foully murdered in a drug-crazed sex attack?

How about the rights of ANYONE not to be murdered in a drug-crazed sex attack. But since I haven't seen any evidence of a drug crazed sex attack by either Knox or Sollecito, that's not sufficient for me to say they get their rights denied.

Sollecito admitted to smoking pot that night but claimed to be alone in his flat.

Well let's shoot him....dirty drug addict.

Not very loyal to Knox because where was she supposed to be during this time?

Or maybe he was trying to protect her from getting in trouble with the law over drugs?

Her stories wavered between being with her boyfriend all the time and away from the murder house, or putting her fingers in her ears to muffle the screams coming from Meredith as she was attacked and raped in her bedroom by a totally innocent barman.

Her "stories" wavered after the police asked her to IMAGINE what had happened that night and also were hammering about that totally innocent barman because she'd sent him a text that said "see you later" which the police apparently took as being a set up for the crime. So maybe, Think about this, given the evidence, maybe Sollecito WAS innocent alone in his flat and it was really Amanda and the Barman who met up and planned it and all the witnesses who say he was in the bar were lying.

I mean if we are throwing out all the evidence and only going by what people say happened, we can totally put anyone in the frame.

If the latter story had been true, surely Knox would have used her mobile phone to call the police and get help for her slowly dying housemate - instead the smooching couple’s mobile phones were both switched off at the same time that night and the police made the grim discovery without any help from either of them.

Maybe their phones were turned off because they were having drug crazed sex, but sans Meredith.

However corrupt people in America think the Italian police are, I simply don’t get how a completely innocent woman would have been pressured into making up a story involving her being an ear witness in that house if she was with her boyfriend in his flat all night and knew nothing until the police had found Meredith.

As has already been stated, she claims that the police told her to imagine what had happened and she did so. My question is, why haven't we heard transcripts TAPES of this if the police are convinced of what she said and how she said and this is wrong, why haven't they released the tapes made of the interview to prove what she said....oh that's right...they didn't record the 14 hour interrogation. Interesting isn't that? No record of this long 14 hour interrogation where she supposedly claimed all these things freely, without intimidation or being hit. Eventually I am sure we'll see a nice carefully edited transcript of the interrogation but regardless of whether you find them corrupt or not, failing to record an interrogation in a murder case would surely have to be considered suspiciously inept.

If they had found Sollecito, the ITALIAN boyfriend, innocent (or if the victim had been Italian), I’d have more sympathy with anyone alleging anti-American bias in this case.

I personally haven't alleged anti-american bias. I've alleged hopeless incompetence and showboating to a corrupt degree, which can happen in even an american trial, though our justice system is set up to eliminate the ability of this kind of idiocy to actually occur in the courtroom.

I did think the Kercher family behaved with incredible dignity at the press conference, and I felt for them. (I've never met the two brothers.) They displayed no triumph or even anger directed at the convicted couple.

I think they behaved with incredible dignity as well. I don't know though what that has to do with the possibility that someone was wrongfully convicted of murder. If you can't separate your feelings for the victims family from the case against the alleged killers, I can see how this wouldn't be your best subject to argue rationally.

So far NO one has actually made a reasoned argument of her guilt. It's all how she smiled, how she looked, how she behaved. Where's the EVIDENCE?

[caz]

For the first time since I have started studying true crime, there's been a conviction in a case I've followed where I haven't been convinced of the person's guilt.

I find it interesting because I was having a conversation with a lot of people recently about a case here in the states where there is also no evidence whatsoever that a particular individual is guilty, but everyone knows full well he is, and I have been posing the question to all and sundry: if you were on his jury, without any evidence, would you convict if you KNEW he'd done it.

But I think the worst of it is, I am not even fully convinced she's done it in this case. I just wish there had been one single piece of physical evidence that was unimpeachable against either one of them.

Or barring that, a solid motive.

The lack of motive, the lack of evidence and the lack of any real information just makes me wonder if she was convicted based on a media trial and not a real one.

Hi Ally,

This astounds me. If one has no evidence against someone, one has no business even suspecting that they are guilty, never mind KNOWING it. What can possibly be behind such knowledge? Psychic ability?

As for her behavior in court, frankly if I'd been wrongly accused of murder, vilified and spoken of as a devil and whore, hated with the hate usually specially reserved for the worst of the worst and looking at the end of my life as I know it in my early 20s, I'd be damned furious if I were innocent. And I'd look that way every day in court as I don't happen to possess a poker face and my acting skills couldn't cover for the horror and anger I'd feel for my situation. Think about it: whatever the shock and sadness she felt at her roommate's death, if Amanda were innocent of killing her, how else would she be feeling at being wrongly accused? How does anyone feel when that happens(and it has).

Hi Jenny,

Trouble is, all we’ve been shown are pictures of Knox grinning in court like a naïve fifteen year old. She is a grown woman and presumably of reasonable intelligence. Guilty or not, what the heck was she doing GRINNING in the context of Meredith’s dreadful last minutes on earth?

I always thought studying abroad was a wonderful idea...Maybe the US Justice Dept. and the Universities should brief every American student on all the rights they will no longer have when they live in a foreign country. Here I'm an adult and I had no idea the Italian system was so different.

How about the rights of British students living in a foreign country not to be foully murdered in a drug-crazed sex attack?

Sollecito admitted to smoking pot that night but claimed to be alone in his flat. Not very loyal to Knox because where was she supposed to be during this time? Her stories wavered between being with her boyfriend all the time and away from the murder house, or putting her fingers in her ears to muffle the screams coming from Meredith as she was attacked and raped in her bedroom by a totally innocent barman. If the latter story had been true, surely Knox would have used her mobile phone to call the police and get help for her slowly dying housemate - instead the smooching couple’s mobile phones were both switched off at the same time that night and the police made the grim discovery without any help from either of them.

However corrupt people in America think the Italian police are, I simply don’t get how a completely innocent woman would have been pressured into making up a story involving her being an ear witness in that house if she was with her boyfriend in his flat all night and knew nothing until the police had found Meredith. Did they use thumb screws? They already had a murder conviction in this case, so what was the big deal about finding two more guilty if there was no shred of evidence against them?

If they had found Sollecito, the ITALIAN boyfriend, innocent (or if the victim had been Italian), I’d have more sympathy with anyone alleging anti-American bias in this case. We don’t know what went on in that jury room, but they did spend 14 hours going over what some say was no evidence at all, and could not find that crucial bit of reasonable doubt. I wasn’t there so I can’t say why that was. And to be fair to the Italians, under their law every convicted person has an automatic appeal, whether they want one or not.

I did think the Kercher family behaved with incredible dignity at the press conference, and I felt for them. (I've never met the two brothers.) They displayed no triumph or even anger directed at the convicted couple.

Love,

Caz
X

[The Good Michael]

I was merely seeking to indicate my starting point based on early reports on the case in England.A minimum of research reveals I was wrong and I've never been afraid to admit I was wrong.So once again I apologise for any offence.

Whatever. You said that you surmised a typical American response. The insult there suggests that Americans are only concerned with our own regardless of right and wrong. That thinking, regardless of apology, is insulting and isn't truer for America than anywhere else. That's where the apology fails; in the thinking behind the comment.

Mike

[The Good Michael]

I suggest you are driven by emotion and strong nationalistic feelings not critical and analitical thinking, you are not looking at the facts and the evidence which in the end, its what is left after you sift the wheat from the shaft, not the fantasy mounted by the parents of one of the murderers. And in the end, this is what is going to prevail.

I suggest that people who can spell analytical may be able to separate wheat from the chaff, while those who cannot are left with the shaft.

Mike

[scarletpimpernel]

Archaic, Ally and the rest.

There is more damning evidence against these three which are:

Phone records show Knox spoke to Rudy Guede several times before and after the murder. Guede was also sentenced to 30 years in prison for his role in the killing.

I suggest you are driven by emotion and strong nationalistic feelings not critical and analitical thinking, you are not looking at the facts and the evidence which in the end, its what is left after you sift the wheat from the shaft, not the fantasy mounted by the parents of one of the murderers. And in the end, this is what is going to prevail.

[Archaic]

Hi, everyone. The more I look into this case the more shocked and bewildered I am that it could happen in 2009.

I had no idea that an EU nation like Italy had such lax laws regarding Juries- and in a MURDER case no less.
Can you imagine American juries attending court only twice a week, and in the meantime sitting around blithely watching tv and reading the most outrageous tabloid coverage of their case? Or taking a TWO MONTH summer vacation right in the middle of a homicide trial? It's surreal.
(Do other European nations permit this?)

I'm starting to feel like the Italian legal procedure is just a notch above the one in 'Monty Python and the Holy Grail', where the official method of proving a woman is a witch is to show she's made of wood- throw her in a lake to see if she floats or build a bridge out of her.

Brummie, I think i understand why you wanted to apologize, and I feel that's a nice gesture on your part; of course it's accepted.

As I stated previously, I honestly feel ashamed of myself now for not having looked into this case prior to the last few days. I don't watch TV and had just heard bits & pieces of the case, or little CNN news snippets on my computer. I wasn't particularly interested because I assumed that the Italian Government actually had the evidence and the confessions that they claimed to have.

But now I feel that the tragedy of Meredith Kercher's senseless death has been compounded, and that only injustice has been served.

If Amanda and Rafaelle are innocent of Meredith's death, three young lives have been destroyed instead of one.

Best regards, Archai

[Casebook Wiki Editor]

Not to mention there's no hope in hell of me coming off as sweet and demure and pure.

Not to mention you do a mean cartwheel.

[Ally]

LOL....I have always said that if Stephen ever dies under mysterious circumstances I might as well just resign myself to life in prison. One look at my bookshelf, chock full of amazing stuff like "Practical Homicide Investigation" and shelf after shelf of murder texts.....they'll throw away the key without even a semblance of a trial. Not to mention there's no hope in hell of me coming off as sweet and demure and pure.

I really do think at some point we need to start looking at the damage that "freedom of the press" is causing. I don't think our forefathers ever intended it to mean the kinds of intrusion into the personal and private lives of citizens that is happening today. It was meant to be a safeguard against government censorship related to criticism of the government and it's turned into something completely different and altogether unsavory.

[Casebook Wiki Editor]

Suddenly devoid of any desire to revisit Italy lest I be falsely accused, smeared by tabloids posing as journalism and at the mercy of some crazed prosecutor

I would think they'd play up the Casebook angle....that alone should be good for life. Do they have the death penalty ?

[Carol]

I've just looked at the video of the bathroom that Archaic found for us. How newspaper editors can live with themselves after allowing such a misleading photo to be published as 'evidence' I do not know.

Studying the video and 'pretending' to be Amanda I am sure I would not have been at all worried by seeing the 'bloody' footprint on the mat or even if I had seen the little bit of blood in the bidet. After all, we females have periods every month (apart from pregnancy, of course) and I, at least, had several 'accidents' over the years when my period took me by surprise and came very suddenly. The most notable being when the blood ran down my leg and even got into my shoe. That took quite a bit of cleaning up. I can easily imagine Amanda could have thought that had happened and took a shower without a second thought.
Carol

[Suzi]

I've just found this excellent link to the case. It goes into great detail about the evidence.

http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php

It now seems as if there was an interpreter as Knox's Nov.5 questioning.

Superb link- thanks jason