kennedy assassination

[joelhall]

i know one fact that disputes the lone gunman theory...

that the warren commission published their evidence, where the ballistics showed there to be at least 4 bullets, and they used this evidence to claim there were only 3.

this is used as a case study in illustrated guide to forensics, dr. zakaria erzinclioglu.

[dougie]

Hi joel,
Is there a link to that info/argument....Id be interested to see/read it.
regards

[sdreid]

The only second gunman was Ruby.

Kennedy was just as dead with one shooter so why double the risk of being caught with two gunmen? It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

There were all kinds of rumors connected with this case. On the afternoon it happened, the first report I heard said that Kennedy and Johnson were in a meeting room and someone burst in and shot both of them although LBJ was only wounded.

[dougie]

Stan,
Yes quite,there were unfounded rumours then ,now and probabley more to come in the future. And its interesting that quite a few of the silliest theories have originated from people in a position to know better.In some ways of course its a bit of a dissapointment to realise that nobody else was involved. Conspiracies, cover -ups and the rest is a lot more exciting than the plain old "screwball with a rifle" syndrome.
But if anybody wants conspiracy theories, visit the education forum jfk assassination f for them,I think even Martians are involved in one of the theories Its amazing what some people choose to believe.
regards

[joelhall]

Hi joel,
Is there a link to that info/argument....Id be interested to see/read it.
regards

no link i know of but i will post the relevent information when i get back in tonight

joel

[Stephen Thomas]

Is there a link to that info/argument....Id be interested to see/read it.

http://jfkmurdersolved.com/warren.htm

[dougie]

The details within that link and the conclusions that follow have been proved incorrect years ago.

[joelhall]

hey guys,

now i should point out this is the only credible evidence ive seen that some of the conclusions made by the warren commision are unsafe.

this does not prove a conspiracy, who did the shooting, nor prove oswalds innocence. it merely shows that the conclusion of 2 bullets only is called into question, also that there was only one shooter (whomever that may be).

this is taken from the illustated guide to forensics - true crime scene investigtions by dr. z. erzinclioglu, sevenoaks, 2004.

dr. zakaria erzinclioglu, a forensics scientist, has been sr. research associate at cambridge university, director of the forensic science research centre at durham university, and an affiliated researcher at cambridge university, as well as being involved in over 500 murder cases in britain and the us.

this if from page 108, involving the evidence on the bullet fragments taken from the car.

the results, from the warren commision, which were reviewed independantly by dr. erzinclioglu, are as follows...

'the results of the study of the fragments were held by the warren commission to show that only two bullets struck the occupants of the car. this is puzzling, since it is clear that the trace element evidence shows that more than two bullets were fired.

'the results for traces of silver, in parts per million, were as follows (the ranges of the results are given in brackets):

1. from connallys stretcher 8.8 +/- 0.5 (8.3-9.3)
2. from connallys wrist 9.8 +/-0.5 (9.3-10.3)
3. large fragment from car 8.1 +/-0.6 (7.5-8.7)
4. from kennedys brain 7.9+/-0.3 (7.6-8.2)
5. small fragments from car 8.2 +/-0.4 (7.8-8.6)

'the range of silver in 1 & 2 just meet, which is inconclusive, since they could represent either one or two bullets.
the ranges for the remaining three specimens overlap considerably and suggest that the fragments came from one bullet.

'the results of the antimony analysis showed the following results:

1. from connallys stretcher 833 +/-9 (824-842)
2. from connallys wrist 797 +/-7 (790-804)
3. large fragment from car 602 +/-4 (598-606)
4. from kennedys brain 621+/-4 (617-625)
5. small fragments from car 642+/-6 (636-648)

'none of the ranges of trace antimony in the bullets or fragments overlap, yet these results were used to demonstrate that only two bullets were fired, which is an impossible conclusion. of particular interest is the fact that the two connally bullets show very different ranges. what all this means is another matter. it certainly does not prove conspiracy. but this is not the point. the point is that, in spite of the fact that some of the evidence suggests that the accepted version of events is incorrect, that very evidence was used to "demonstrate" the opposite. such things do happen in forensic science.'

this is the only real evidence i have seen to seriously question the accuracy of the warren commissions report.

joel

[sdreid]

I also remember hearing that evening on a foreign shortwave radio station that the "shooters" were firing from the overpass, again, completely fictitious.

[dougie]

hey guys,

now i should point out this is the only credible evidence ive seen that some of the conclusions made by the warren commision are unsafe.

this does not prove a conspiracy, who did the shooting, nor prove oswalds innocence. it merely shows that the conclusion of 2 bullets only is called into question, also that there was only one shooter (whomever that may be).

this is taken from the illustated guide to forensics - true crime scene investigtions by dr. z. erzinclioglu, sevenoaks, 2004.

dr. zakaria erzinclioglu, a forensics scientist, has been sr. research associate at cambridge university, director of the forensic science research centre at durham university, and an affiliated researcher at cambridge university, as well as being involved in over 500 murder cases in britain and the us.

this if from page 108, involving the evidence on the bullet fragments taken from the car.

the results, from the warren commision, which were reviewed independantly by dr. erzinclioglu, are as follows...

'the results of the study of the fragments were held by the warren commission to show that only two bullets struck the occupants of the car. this is puzzling, since it is clear that the trace element evidence shows that more than two bullets were fired.

'the results for traces of silver, in parts per million, were as follows (the ranges of the results are given in brackets):

1. from connallys stretcher 8.8 +/- 0.5 (8.3-9.3)
2. from connallys wrist 9.8 +/-0.5 (9.3-10.3)
3. large fragment from car 8.1 +/-0.6 (7.5-8.7)
4. from kennedys brain 7.9+/-0.3 (7.6-8.2)
5. small fragments from car 8.2 +/-0.4 (7.8-8.6)

'the range of silver in 1 & 2 just meet, which is inconclusive, since they could represent either one or two bullets.
the ranges for the remaining three specimens overlap considerably and suggest that the fragments came from one bullet.

'the results of the antimony analysis showed the following results:

1. from connallys stretcher 833 +/-9 (824-842)
2. from connallys wrist 797 +/-7 (790-804)
3. large fragment from car 602 +/-4 (598-606)
4. from kennedys brain 621+/-4 (617-625)
5. small fragments from car 642+/-6 (636-648)

'none of the ranges of trace antimony in the bullets or fragments overlap, yet these results were used to demonstrate that only two bullets were fired, which is an impossible conclusion. of particular interest is the fact that the two connally bullets show very different ranges. what all this means is another matter. it certainly does not prove conspiracy. but this is not the point. the point is that, in spite of the fact that some of the evidence suggests that the accepted version of events is incorrect, that very evidence was used to "demonstrate" the opposite. such things do happen in forensic science.'

this is the only real evidence i have seen to seriously question the accuracy of the warren commissions report.

joel

Hi Joel,
Interesting....here is some testimony from a Proffessor Guinn of the univ of california.Guinn was the leading authority on neutron activation analysis (NAA)..He testified that "unlike other manufactured bullets, Mannlicher Carcano ammunition composition (particularly ,but not exclusively in antimony content) vary from bullet to bullet ,even within the same case" and that there was always "a measurement uncertainty,and one can never tell whether real measures within this particular bullet are a little higher or a little lower"
Question..."So at any time you conduct an naa examination of a bullet fragment,you would probabley come upwith different parts per million. Is that correct?
Guinn.... "Yes even with the same fragment, even if you ran it over and over again"
Guinn said that he had totalled the weight of the bullet fragments...3 from Connallys wrist,two from kennedys brain,the stretcher bullet..the 2 fragments on the floor of the presidential limousine....total weight 226 grains..the weight of 2 UNDAMAGED bullets would have been 322 grains...in other words LESS than the weight of 2 bullets.....the fragments not weighed were several minor flakes left in connallys wrist and a fragment left in connallys femur.
He was asked "is there no evidence that more than 2 bullets had hit anything with oin the limousine? he replied "That is correct,and there is solid evidence that there were only 2"
The NAA scientific evidence showed that ALL the bullet fragments(including the "stretcher bullet" which amounted to 2 whole bullets were fired from oswalds rifle and NO other rifle.
regards

[DrPL]

If I may be so bold, there is an excellent discussion of bullet fragments and how their quantity and weight as altered over the years at:

http://www.dealeyplazauk.org/

- then go into resources, then Articles, and then "The Wounding of John Connally" towards the bottom of the page.

Best wishes

Paul

[dougie]

DRPL
Hi, had a quick look, was quite interesting....however its known how many bullets were fired...its known from which rifle they came from...its known the location from which the bullets were fired....its known whos rifle it was.....and last but not least its known who fired it.So really however much nitpicking goes on.....the verdict cant sensibley be disputed.Almost every murder case has unexplained odds and ends.Usually small, insignificant things that others pick up on to dispute the most obviously correct verdicts.People are still arguing over the A6 murder for the very same reasons,even though its been proved beyond,far beyond even any shred of reasonable doubt who the culprit was....its fun i guess.
regards

[dougie]

A few photos of jack ruby some might not have seen

[HollyDolly]

Kennedy Assassination

My dad worked at Security Service at KellyAFB,in military intelligence.He was at IBM at computer school when it happend.I recall him saying that one gentleman said Johnson did it.
I guess that was the belief of many locals at the time, that LBJ had some hand in it.Why I have no idea,but they felt he was behind it.

[dougie]

Holly dolly,
I think through the years almost everyone has been accused of some degree of involvement in the assassination....something in the region of 1,200 "known " figures and countless more lesser known .Thats one of the main problems with conspiracy theorists....they never know when to stop!
regards