Lizzie Borden Case

[RivkahChaya]

I saw that program too, in fact both of them. I don't buy the sexual abuse theory, there is absolutely no proof. However, there is proof Mr. Borden was going to leave everything to his second wife.

That is motive enough.

I'm with you. The incest theory has been around for about as long as incest has been hovering around in the news, along with the "repressed memory" nonsense.

Andrew didn't have to leave everything to his second wife. By the laws in Massachusetts at the time, she got everything. Lizzie and Emma would get a small trust to cover bare bones expenses, and that was all.

Here's the kicker: if Abby and Andrew died on the same day, but the coroner ruled that Andrew died first, the bulk of the estate, including the house where Lizzie and Emma lived, would go to Abby's nearest relative.

If you ask me, that makes complete sense of one of the lingering puzzles of the case: why was Abby killed and left upstairs, and the killer hung around for an hour, then kill Andrew as soon as he got home? Abby was killed and left in a place that was visually inaccessible, and left long enough to get cold, and for the blood pool to congeal. Then, Andrew was killed as soon as he got home, and alarm was sounded-- by Lizzie-- while he was still warm, and the blood was still oozing. There would be no other conclusion than that Abby died first. That meant Emma and Lizzie would get everything, except Abby's jewelry.

If there's a question as to why then-- why that day, that year, well, I'm not sure why that exact day. Maybe it was hot, and Lizzie had her period, and she was especially fed up with the fact that her father would not install indoor plumbing. Why that year was a little easier.

Lizzie had just turned 32 a couple of weeks before. That was "old maid" territory. Whether or not she wanted to get married is beside the point: back then, there were few ways for a woman to support herself, and if Lizzie did not have either a husband, or family money, she was out in the cold, possibly literally. She had recently had a falling out with Abby, and had stopped calling her "mother." I don't know what it was about, but the point is that, Abby had been Lizzie's mother figure since she was very small. Until then, Lizzie may have felt that Abby would always take care of her financially, but after the argument, she was no longer sure. Last, Andrew, in a rare loosening of the purse-strings, had sent Lizzie on a trip to Europe, where she'd traveled first class, and stayed in very good hotels, all with indoor plumbing, and a lot modern conveniences and luxuries Andrew didn't allow. The Borden home was the equivalent of having a rotary phone and a black-&-white TV in the 21st century. By reports, Lizzie often asked her father to update the house, but he wouldn't, not because he couldn't afford to, but because he was a bit of a miser.

It also might have dawned on Lizzie that if Abby died of natural causes before Andrew, he might take it into his head to marry again. Who knows?

She probably just got to a "time to grab the handles of fate" point, and make some things happen, rather than sitting around, listening to the clock tick, hoping, and worrying.

I like to think that under similar circumstances, I would not personally resort to double murder. However, I can certainly understand her growing feelings of desperation.

[Ally]

Staying in the house is what made me convinced that Lizzie did it. Specifically in the case of Abigail Borden, there is absolutely no way a stranger could have snuck up and done her all without anyone knowing. The layout of the house is incredibly weird but the room she was in had a direct line of sight to the stairs and I can't imagine she'd have allowed a stranger with an ax to walk right up to her without uttering any sort of scream or noise. Especially when you consider she was struck from behind and there was no way, no possible way, to sneak up behind her, she had to have known who was standing there.

When you factor in the time delay between her death and Andrew Borden's... She did it.

[Grimmspendulum]

I have actually stayed at the house a few years ago and was actually pretty neat. Although other than just a casual interest in the case, in my unofficial opinion is that she did it. She was defiantly caught as mentioned above burning a pile of clothes and blood soaked rags I believe were also found that she blamed it on her period. Its only circumstantial evidence I know but it just seems that it was either her or the maid possibly both, but most likely Lizzie.

[ChainzCooper]

I saw that program too, in fact both of them. I don't buy the sexual abuse theory, there is absolutely no proof. However, there is proof Mr. Borden was going to leave everything to his second wife.

That is motive enough.

I was thinking the same thing when I was watching both shows. That this could be a case of blaming the victim(s). But then again it just made me mutter 'wow' to myself because the two shows came to same conclusion and I had never heard of that theory before. Maybe it was just a coincidence that I watched them within such a short amount of time from one another or maybe not. I really can't say
Jordan

[Beowulf]

Saw two recent programs detailing the Borden Murders. One was this psychic show which I usually don't watch but was bored. In it the two psychics went to the Borden House and claimed that they finally figured out the murderer and what the motive was. That Lizzie killed her parents because her Dad was having incest with her. They had this device that had a flashing red light they said would go on and off any time a spirit would contact them. So it kept beeping on and off constantly which freaked them out so they hightailed it out of there.They claimed it was Andrew's spirit doing it and was following them around because they finally found out his big secret. I kind of found the show funny but then I watched another program about the case on another network that looked at the murders using a modern detectives and a profiler. They found blood splatter using luminol in the basement beneath the first floor floorboards (which they said may or may not have been Andrew's) and on a wash basin but the thing that made me sit up on the couch and take note of the show was the profiler. He came to the exact conclusions the psychics did on the other show that if you put together what we know now to what people didn't know then was that Andrew was having incest with Lizzie which was the motive to her killings. He based it on Andrew's behavior typical of sexual abusers trying to maintain complete secrecy and Lizzie giving him a ring (her class ring I think I don't remember.) It just made me do a double take because I hadn't heard of that theory let alone within the same week of another on two different shows. Maybe the psychic was right and I shouldn't have laughed at her
Jordan

I saw that program too, in fact both of them. I don't buy the sexual abuse theory, there is absolutely no proof. However, there is proof Mr. Borden was going to leave everything to his second wife.

That is motive enough.

[ChainzCooper]

Saw two recent programs detailing the Borden Murders. One was this psychic show which I usually don't watch but was bored. In it the two psychics went to the Borden House and claimed that they finally figured out the murderer and what the motive was. That Lizzie killed her parents because her Dad was having incest with her. They had this device that had a flashing red light they said would go on and off any time a spirit would contact them. So it kept beeping on and off constantly which freaked them out so they hightailed it out of there.They claimed it was Andrew's spirit doing it and was following them around because they finally found out his big secret. I kind of found the show funny but then I watched another program about the case on another network that looked at the murders using a modern detectives and a profiler. They found blood splatter using luminol in the basement beneath the first floor floorboards (which they said may or may not have been Andrew's) and on a wash basin but the thing that made me sit up on the couch and take note of the show was the profiler. He came to the exact conclusions the psychics did on the other show that if you put together what we know now to what people didn't know then was that Andrew was having incest with Lizzie which was the motive to her killings. He based it on Andrew's behavior typical of sexual abusers trying to maintain complete secrecy and Lizzie giving him a ring (her class ring I think I don't remember.) It just made me do a double take because I hadn't heard of that theory let alone within the same week of another on two different shows. Maybe the psychic was right and I shouldn't have laughed at her
Jordan

[sdreid]

No Problem Archaic

Lizzie's house is still around and every year on that day they go all out. It's a B&B. Lizzieborden.com I think.

Same as it ever was.

Yes, they did the same in Villisca for their 100th I believe. We love our multiple ax murder houses here in the U.S.

[Beowulf]

Hi Stan.

Thanks for pointing that out; I didn't realize this was the anniversary.

Best regards,
Archaic

Lizzie's house is still around and every year on that day they go all out. It's a B&B. Lizzieborden.com I think.

Same as it ever was.

[Archaic]

Hi Stan.

Thanks for pointing that out; I didn't realize this was the anniversary.

Best regards,
Archaic

[sdreid]

120 years ago today.

[Archaic]

Hi Tom.

For the sake of those not familiar with the details of the case, here's an article about "Uncle John" on a different Lizzie Borden website, called
The Lizzie Borden Collection : http://www.thelizziebordencollection...icum-morse.php

I'm less suspicious of the involvement of Uncle John than of Andrew's illegitimate son William Borden, who apparently wanted his share of the Borden money. There's been talk of threats and an extortion attempt. This may be why Uncle John rushed to Fall River in answer to William's letter: they needed to talk.

But maybe what happened is that Lizzie overhead her father and uncle talking about giving William money to quiet him, feared losing her inheritance, and this in addition to all the other pressures at play caused her to turn to murder?

She seemed to have already been thinking about it, having just bought some Prussic Acid that she lied about in court. Maybe Lizzie felt that after she overheard the men talk she couldn't wait to use poison, and so "took an axe"?

Best regards,
Archaic

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Archaic,

I've visited that website for many, many years. I also own many copies of their Lizzie magazine, The Hatchet. The sisters who run this show really know their stuff and are very respectful of the case and serious about it.

As for who killed Andrew and Abby, there's no question it was Lizzie. The only question left to my mind is 'Was Uncle John involved?' I plan to look more closely at that question in the future.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Archaic]

Hi Geo, just saw your post. You're very welcome.

It's an excellent website, isn't it? Lots of solid information without the usual urban legends and sensationalism.

So do you think Lizzie did it?

I think the evidence is compelling... so far, anyway.

Take care,
Archaic

[Semper_Eadem]

Thanks Archaic for sharing this neat link.

I always figured there was a lot of suppressed hate that Lizzie had towards her parents, she had 32 years of spates and petty arguments with them behind her and Lizzie Bordon was stagnant in that house. I could see her doing chores while waiting for her dad to get home. In many ways I think of Lizzie as a teenager in an adult's body due to her actions before and during and after the murder. I think in many ways she did not get to mature emotionally due to the way she was raised. I think this might of been true with Emma as well, although Emma did nurse their mother through her last illness. Which might of given her a certain maturity. Lizzie being 3 years old at her mother's death was spared nursing her and the loss of her mother might of retarded Lizzie's emotional development.

[Archaic]

Andrew & Abby Borden Autopsy Reports

Here are the Autopsy Reports for Andrew and Abby Borden, originally taken from the website above then posted to the internet on their own:

http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/LizzieBorden/bordenautopsies.html

Pretty horrific stuff.

Best regards,
Archaic