Lizzie Borden Case

[jason_c]

I may be alone in this but I don't know any woman who would describe herself as a feminist. Any woman worth her salt is in favour of equality in the workplace, etc., but I wouldn't necessarily call them feminists. We're just women trying to get along in this world, and get along with everyone. Chauvinistic men can simply be ignored.

Well said babe.....

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Errata, I don't know how old you are, but I know Grave Maurice is pretty old, so back in his day it was hip to belong to some civil rights group or another, thus many women were feminists. My mother was not among them. And very few women are actual feminists. Thinking women should be paid the same as a man for the same job is not feminist, it's just common sense. It's something virtually all of us can agree on. If you are not an activist in the cause, you are not a feminist. Feminists are the nuts who got it to where half of hurricanes must have a male name, and try to get the word 'history' changed to something that does not defer to the masculine. Women have all equal rights now, so that's what the cause is reduced to. A feminist believes in the superiority of her sex. You know what the male counterpart is called? Male chauvinist pig, or sexist. How fair is that? But I digress. And I think it was ChainzCooper who brought up Lizzie being a lesbian.

Incidentally, I believe there is still such a thing as a 'real man' and a 'real woman' and there always will be. All the left wing propaganda in the world won't change that.

Hi Louisa,

Thanks for the support, but I would be surprised if you would view feminism with the same disdain I do. As a man, I'm conscious of the fact that feminists are anti-Tom, and anything anti-Tom sucks hardcore.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[The Grave Maurice]

...I don't know any woman who would describe herself as a feminist.

That, to me, is a very interesting statement, Louisa. I assume that you must be young. When I was young, I don't think I knew any women who didn't call themselves feminists. My wife still does.

As to whether Lizzie dunnit, of course she did. There are no other believable options.

[louisa]

I may be alone in this but I don't know any woman who would describe herself as a feminist. Any woman worth her salt is in favour of equality in the workplace, etc., but I wouldn't necessarily call them feminists. We're just women trying to get along in this world, and get along with everyone. Chauvinistic men can simply be ignored.

[Errata]

You're quite fond of stating your opinions as facts, it seems. No worries, we all do the same sometimes. As a matter of fact, I do have a problem with any special interest group who screws with historical accuracy in order to further their cause or movement, whether it be the Nazis (who published their own Ripper pamphlet) or feminazis. Feminists make horrendous historians and have completely muddled the Borden case. While I have no particular problem with lesbians as such, I have little patience for the modern feminist activist (straight or gay), who as a man I view in a similar way as you probably view a white supremacist group. Because you're female, you would naturally not share this view. Conversely, I hold much respect for early feminists who operated at a time when such a thing was truly necessary. Through my research in Ripper suspect Robert D'Onston Stephenson, I learned about Vittoria Woodhull, and thought she was pretty bad ass. Same with Annie Besant and a number of others who put themselves at personal risk for a good cause.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

First of all, I'm sorry I ever brought up the lesbian theory. I just meant to throw that out there as a crack. It was proposed by two researchers (men by the way) but no one, including me, takes it seriously.

I don't think that my statement of "opinion as fact" is out of line, or is not fact. Are there feminists out there with a psychotic need to rewrite history in order to make women look either more independent or more oppressed by men? Absolutely. I despise them as well. But that isn't all feminists. It isn't even a majority of feminists. It's a shrill minority. I'm a feminist. I believe in many feminist ideals that still have not been accomplished because the psychos won't shut the hell up. I mean, rewrite history later. Achieve pay equity now. Think men are scum all you want, but shut your mouth and do something about domestic violence, prostitution, medical inequity and family planning. I'm sure your mother was a feminist, I'm sure most women you know are feminists. We aren't those agitating hysterics anymore than Christians are the Westboro Baptist Church.

But this has probably derailed this thread pretty effectively. Which I did not intend to do. Mea Culpa

[louisa]

"Because you're female, you would naturally not share this view"

Tom - I'm female and I share your the views in your above post.

[Tom_Wescott]

No evidence for 'Lezzie' Borden

Not for nothing, but the tone of your post comes off as pejorative to both lesbians and feminists. And you may not have intended to give that impression. But it compels me to point out that being either a lesbian or feminist is not a state of being deserving of scorn.

You're quite fond of stating your opinions as facts, it seems. No worries, we all do the same sometimes. As a matter of fact, I do have a problem with any special interest group who screws with historical accuracy in order to further their cause or movement, whether it be the Nazis (who published their own Ripper pamphlet) or feminazis. Feminists make horrendous historians and have completely muddled the Borden case. While I have no particular problem with lesbians as such, I have little patience for the modern feminist activist (straight or gay), who as a man I view in a similar way as you probably view a white supremacist group. Because you're female, you would naturally not share this view. Conversely, I hold much respect for early feminists who operated at a time when such a thing was truly necessary. Through my research in Ripper suspect Robert D'Onston Stephenson, I learned about Vittoria Woodhull, and thought she was pretty bad ass. Same with Annie Besant and a number of others who put themselves at personal risk for a good cause.

In any event, Borden having taken a celebrity friend hardly makes her a lesbian, and this completely overlooks the apparent physical relationship Lizzie enjoyed with her coachman, much to her sister's chagrin. If I'm not mistaken, Nance was a spitfire who was as known for her male associates as much as anything else. Borden's appeal to her was most likely the fact that she was a woman who butchered her parents. One can hardly blame Nance for her curiosity and utilizing her celebrity to get close to Borden to satisfy her curiosity. If a real friendship grew from that, then so be it. But to suggest a love affair could only be used to support an agenda, whether it be pro-gay (who also grossly condemn Andrew as an abusive child molester whom Lizzie heroically struck back at) or anti-gay (to build an argument for Lizzie as some sort of deviant with a secret life). I can't support either side as it's not historically responsible.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[belinda]

The Borden case is very interesting. Bridget Sullivan knew more than she ever told which is a pity.

[louisa]

In almost every case where a murder happens in someone's home, the same thing happens..........people start saying that they saw a tramp or a strange looking man loitering in the area, or similar. I presume that people just want to help, but unfortunately they send the police off in the wrong directions and waste valuable time.

As we all know by now, murders of this type are almost always carried out by family members or by somebody known to the family.

I suspect that Lizzie and her sister were sick to death of being dictated to by an overly strict father and a bossy stepmother. They could see no end to this state of affairs - it could go forever. (as both were spinsters with no marriage prospects in sight).

When a child grows up but continues to live with his/her parents they effectively still get treated as a child by the parents.

Lizzie must have realised how wonderful life would be without these two people and I think her sister would have agreed.

[Errata]

There are actually zero signs that Lizzie was a lesbo. This is propaganda that started when the feminists became interested in the case.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Signs was probably not the best word choice. It was a conclusion based on her friendship with Nance O'Neill and her break with her sister.

Not for nothing, but the tone of your post comes off as pejorative to both lesbians and feminists. And you may not have intended to give that impression. But it compels me to point out that being either a lesbian or feminist is not a state of being deserving of scorn.

[Tom_Wescott]

There are actually zero signs that Lizzie was a lesbo. This is propaganda that started when the feminists became interested in the case.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Errata]

Hi Errata,

Of course Lizzie wielded the hatchet, unless you're suggesting her unknown boyfriend came over and did it with her standing by, but that's too risky, and no man was seen coming or going. I mention 'unknown boyfriend' because Andrew was overheard talking to Lizzie about a man she was presumably seeing, and telling her she couldn't see him any more. However, the fact that no evidence of this man came about with everyone talking and gossiping makes me question if this conversation between father and daughter ever happened.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

There actually seems to be some signs that Lizzie was a lesbian, but that's probably neither here nor there.

Actually two men were seen around the time of the murder of Andrew Borden. A man was spotted in a coach stopped just past the house by a neighbor, and a woman who lived over the store down the street saw a guy hopping on the fence by the pear tree, presumably to pick pears. Is either of these guys the killer? Probably not. But maybe.

I actually don't think it would be that hard to let someone in the house and have them hang around unseen until both murders could be accomplished. That house is impossible. I don't know if there is a layout of the place online, but I've been in it and it's like it was designed by a madman. Two sets of stairs, completely non interchangeable. There are no hallways, so the rooms open directly into each other, where the doors aren't locked or blocked. If they were careful, someone could probably squat in the spare bedroom for weeks without anyone noticing. Thats part of the reason the descriptions of various actions seem so confusing. Because the house is confusing.

[ChainzCooper]

I thought the word around the campfire was that Lizzie was a lesbian and she got into a huge argument with her parents about it the day of the murder. Or that they caught her and the maid together which resulted in an altercation which lead to the murders.Interesting, I didn't know she had a boyfriend
Jordan

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Rob, thanks for that. Incidentally, I believe the Knowlton papers exist, but are held in perpetuity by a law firm. I still think Morse's actions make him suspicious.

Hi Errata,

Of course Lizzie wielded the hatchet, unless you're suggesting her unknown boyfriend came over and did it with her standing by, but that's too risky, and no man was seen coming or going. I mention 'unknown boyfriend' because Andrew was overheard talking to Lizzie about a man she was presumably seeing, and telling her she couldn't see him any more. However, the fact that no evidence of this man came about with everyone talking and gossiping makes me question if this conversation between father and daughter ever happened.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Errata]

Lizzie Borden was very very lucky.

The all male jury simply refused to believe that such a demure and ladylike person from such a good family could do such a thing. Maybe they just didn't want their town to be tarnished by having a convicted murderer in their midst.

Lizzie had changed her dress after the murder and was seen to be burning one in the downstairs furnace, if my memory serves me.

I think she harboured resentment which turned into bitter hatred towards her stepmother and blamed her father for allowing the situation.

Lizzie changed her dress after people were already in the house, responding to her summoning help. I think it was even after initial police questioning.

The problem with Lizzie being the murderer is the timing and the lack of blood evidence. There is about 15 minutes between the last time Lizzie was seen while her father was still alive, and the first time Lizzie was seen after the murder. So best case scenario she would have to run upstairs, change clothes (or strip naked if you are a fan of that scenario) run downstairs, axe murder her father, run downstairs to get rid of the hatchet, run to the kitchen to wash all traces of blood from her skin and hair, dry her hair, run back upstairs to put on the outfit she was wearing earlier, run back downstairs and call Bridget for help. All in 10 or 15 minutes, all without Bridget hearing a thing. A third party is in the house maybe 10 minutes after Bridget was alerted to the murder.

She totally could have killed her stepmother. There was plenty of time for that. I just don't think she could have killed her father. And it's kind of hard to paint a scenario where two different people axe murdered two different people in the house that day. I think she knew who did it, and I think she covered for that person. I think she was an accomplice, maybe even the instigator, but I don't think she was the one who actually wielded the axe.