The Sinking of the RMS Titanic and other ships.

[Mayerling]

Indeed, was not one aristocratic survivor heavily criticised for "tipping" the oarsmen of the lifeboat he was in (a "fiver", I think it was) becaue it was perceived as IF a bribe.

Phil

Hi Phil,

Actually, the incident you are referring to deals with Sir Cosmo Duff Gordon and his wife. She was a well known couturier (I think her trade name was "Irene" or "Eileen"). Early on they got into a life boat with her maid and his valet, and a few passengers, and with a capacity for at least forty souls they had maybe a dozen with five sailors included. Needless to say the Duff Gordon lifeboat (I almost called it a yacht) did not return to rescue people. Sir Cosmo did hand out fivers (five pound notes, which in 1912 were equivalent to $250.00 each)to the sailors. It was (supposedly) to replace their clothes and kits. I am not surprised many consider it a bribe for silence.

Sir Cosmo and his wife's reputations were as wrecked as ismay's was.

Jeff

[Mayerling]

Am I correct in thinking that Ismay took a place in a lifeboat that had quite a few empty seats when it was launched? He didn't actually push anybody out of the way but simply took a seat that was (and would have remained) vacant?

If this is the case then if he had gone down with the ship his life would simply have been added to the hundreds of other souls who lost their lives on that night.

Yes he would have died with some honour intact, but would any of us have behaved differently to Ismay at that precise minute, at that precise time?

Hi Louisa,

Oddly enough your comment in the middle paragraph mirrors that of Lord Mersey, the appointed head of the British hearings into the loss of Titanic. He basically agreed that if Ismay had not entered the lifeboat it would have been one more life lost, more or less.

Actually that does not stand up. He was head of the shipping line, could have ordered the boat not to be lowered, and searched the other side of the ship for more women and children (even, horror of horrors, 3rd class women and children) to fill up the boat before it left without him. He did not do that, but entered the boat.

Ben Hecht worked on one of the Hearst newspapers in Chicago in 1912, and wrote a clever poem comparing "E.J." and "J. B.I." Beginning with "The Captain stood where the Captain should", Hecht basically reduced the entire argument pretty well. He ended the three stanza poem stating that Captain Smith earned his pay by staying around helping the passengers and maintaining order, while Ismay's "noble right" was to "run with the mob."

As for Lord Mersey, his "merseyful" view on Ismay lived up to his dubious reputation - although an expert on maritime law, he was frequently used by the British government to cover - up embarrassing events. In 1896 he chared the hearings into the Jameson Raid in South Africa, which was a land grab plot of Cecil Rhodes and Dr. Leander Starr Jameson against the Boer Republics. It had the quiet blessing of Colonial Minister Joseph Chamberlain. Needless to say Jameson and some of his men went to prison, but the involvement of Rhodes and Chamberlain was somewhat hidden. Mersey obviously did the same for Ismay in 1912 (Senator William Smith was far less impressed by Ismay in the American hearings). In 1915 Mersey would also have to hobble some of the still murky details about the sinking of the Lusitania.

Mersey apparently did a good job on the Empress of Ireland hearings in 1914.

Jeff

[jason_c]

Hi Louisa,

Oddly enough your comment in the middle paragraph mirrors that of Lord Mersey, the appointed head of the British hearings into the loss of Titanic. He basically agreed that if Ismay had not entered the lifeboat it would have been one more life lost, more or less.

Actually that does not stand up. He was head of the shipping line, could have ordered the boat not to be lowered, and searched the other side of the ship for more women and children (even, horror of horrors, 3rd class women and children) to fill up the boat before it left without him. He did not do that, but entered the boat.

Ben Hecht worked on one of the Hearst newspapers in Chicago in 1912, and wrote a clever poem comparing "E.J." and "J. B.I." Beginning with "The Captain stood where the Captain should", Hecht basically reduced the entire argument pretty well. He ended the three stanza poem stating that Captain Smith earned his pay by staying around helping the passengers and maintaining order, while Ismay's "noble right" was to "run with the mob."

As for Lord Mersey, his "merseyful" view on Ismay lived up to his dubious reputation - although an expert on maritime law, he was frequently used by the British government to cover - up embarrassing events. In 1896 he chared the hearings into the Jameson Raid in South Africa, which was a land grab plot of Cecil Rhodes and Dr. Leander Starr Jameson against the Boer Republics. It had the quiet blessing of Colonial Minister Joseph Chamberlain. Needless to say Jameson and some of his men went to prison, but the involvement of Rhodes and Chamberlain was somewhat hidden. Mersey obviously did the same for Ismay in 1912 (Senator William Smith was far less impressed by Ismay in the American hearings). In 1915 Mersey would also have to hobble some of the still murky details about the sinking of the Lusitania.

Mersey apparently did a good job on the Empress of Ireland hearings in 1914.

Jeff

Would he have had any authority to do this? Once the ship had sailed I assume his position of authority(if not influence) was diminished.

[Adam Went]

Hey all,

Jeff:

That's very interesting stuff about Ismay!
Unfortunately, for right or wrong, with the death in the sinking of Captain Smith, Thomas Andrews and the leading officers, Ismay's actions and his subsequent survival made him a scapegoat at the time and he never lived it down, and there's still a lot of people a century later with a very low view of him.

A passenger had apparently overhard him encouraging Smith to push the Titanic faster so that they could make it into New York City on the Tuesday evening rather than the planned Wednesday morning, the icing on the cake for her spectacular maiden voyage I suppose.

So I think your description of Ismay is pretty well accurate, he liked to take charge when he could and liked to throw his weight around.

Jason:

I'm not sure about it being a common occurrence but it's plausible that a contributing factor in the Titanic's case was that her own officers believed in her infallibility. Only ten miles away, approximately, the Californian had stopped for the night, not risking continuing through the same ice field.

It is actually very fortunate that the Carpathia didn't fall victim to the ice - the Carpathia and Captain Rostron are the real heroes of the night.

I remember reading an account from a crew member on the Carpathia, who was describing the time when every little ounce of power they could muster was put into the engines to make her get to the Titanic as quickly as possible - even shutting off certain instruments of the ship to increase the power. The crew member said something to the effect of "It seemed like the old ship knew she was needed in a crisis" - Carpathia certainly excelled herself in the race to the scene of the sinking.

Cheers,
Adam.

[louisa]

Hello Adam

Yes I remember reading that account too. The bit that has always puzzled me was that the crew were also ordered to pour oil down the lavatories.

Does anyone know if this practice actually helps ships to go faster?


If Captain Rostron had been given a bigger part in the movie "A Night To Remember" then I reckon Kenneth More would have been given the role, instead of that of Lightoller.

[jason_c]

Hey all,

Jeff:

That's very interesting stuff about Ismay!
Unfortunately, for right or wrong, with the death in the sinking of Captain Smith, Thomas Andrews and the leading officers, Ismay's actions and his subsequent survival made him a scapegoat at the time and he never lived it down, and there's still a lot of people a century later with a very low view of him.

A passenger had apparently overhard him encouraging Smith to push the Titanic faster so that they could make it into New York City on the Tuesday evening rather than the planned Wednesday morning, the icing on the cake for her spectacular maiden voyage I suppose.

So I think your description of Ismay is pretty well accurate, he liked to take charge when he could and liked to throw his weight around.

Jason:

I'm not sure about it being a common occurrence but it's plausible that a contributing factor in the Titanic's case was that her own officers believed in her infallibility. Only ten miles away, approximately, the Californian had stopped for the night, not risking continuing through the same ice field.

It is actually very fortunate that the Carpathia didn't fall victim to the ice - the Carpathia and Captain Rostron are the real heroes of the night.

I remember reading an account from a crew member on the Carpathia, who was describing the time when every little ounce of power they could muster was put into the engines to make her get to the Titanic as quickly as possible - even shutting off certain instruments of the ship to increase the power. The crew member said something to the effect of "It seemed like the old ship knew she was needed in a crisis" - Carpathia certainly excelled herself in the race to the scene of the sinking.

Cheers,
Adam.

"The Titanic spent her last evening steaming at full pelt which was common practice when amongst the ice in the North Atlantic and Ismay wanted to make New York on time."

http://www.ragamuffin.biz/grassroots...anic/page7.htm


I found the above quote on a webpage. Im certain I read similar in a book too. I think the point was brought up in the inquiry afterwards. If i remember correctly the quicker you were out of an icefield the better. This doesnt account for the Carpathia stopping however.

[Adam Went]

Louisa:

I've not heard of them pouring oil down the lavatories but if it's the case, could it possibly be that the lavatories flowed back out into the ocean and excess oil was effectively dumped to make the ship lighter? That's the only explanation I can think of.....they certainly made all the arrangements as she raced towards the scene.

It's a real shame that Carpathia ended up meeting her own end during World War I....I know that expeditions have been down and explored her as well.

Jason:

Ismay didn't want to make New York ON time, he wanted to make New York AHEAD of time, which is what the passenger clearly heard as well.

It might have been a common practice to get out of the ice as quickly as possible so as not to get hemmed in for smaller, more nimble vessels, but it was a disaster waiting to happen for a ship the sheer size and weight of the Titanic, she couldn't manouvre like a smaller vessel - and ice warnings had been ignored that day as well.

Also, just a small point, it was Californian that was stopped in the ice, not Carpathia. Californian was approximately 10 miles away, Carpathia was approximately 58.

Cheers,
Adam.

[jason_c]

Louisa:

I've not heard of them pouring oil down the lavatories but if it's the case, could it possibly be that the lavatories flowed back out into the ocean and excess oil was effectively dumped to make the ship lighter? That's the only explanation I can think of.....they certainly made all the arrangements as she raced towards the scene.

It's a real shame that Carpathia ended up meeting her own end during World War I....I know that expeditions have been down and explored her as well.

Jason:

Ismay didn't want to make New York ON time, he wanted to make New York AHEAD of time, which is what the passenger clearly heard as well.

It might have been a common practice to get out of the ice as quickly as possible so as not to get hemmed in for smaller, more nimble vessels, but it was a disaster waiting to happen for a ship the sheer size and weight of the Titanic, she couldn't manouvre like a smaller vessel - and ice warnings had been ignored that day as well.

Also, just a small point, it was Californian that was stopped in the ice, not Carpathia. Californian was approximately 10 miles away, Carpathia was approximately 58.

Cheers,
Adam.

I take this passengers account with a pinch of salt. As far as I know no crew survivor mentioned Ismay or Smith mentioning this to them. Its not 100% certain that Ismay was of any major importance with such decisions on the ship. And if any Captain was likely to ignore Ismay on such an issue it was Smith.

edit:

Some more info from this site.

http://www.titanic-whitestarships.co...OWSS%20FAQ.htm

"At the US Inquiry following the disaster, two of Captain Smith's peers, (British liner captains from other shipping company's) testified that the speed Smith used in the ice field was the practice of the day considering the weather conditions at the time the speed was determined. The unwritten motto among captains was "Put the danger behind you as quickly as possible." That did not mean of course that they would run flank speed though an area know to contain hazards, it simply meant adjust your speed accordingly through your own prudence and common sense.

Titanic's surviving officers testified (and wrote in later memoirs) that they were not aware of any orders or influence to run Titanic at unsafe speeds at any time. The order to light additional boilers on Sunday morning (April 14) was standard for any new ship on it's maiden voyage during the "breaking in" period of new engines. If Ismay and Smith had collaborated to "beat Olympic's crossing time," slowing down to a safer speed on Sunday night through the ice field would not have hurt that possibility. They still had three additional days of good weather to "crank it up" and accomplish the mission if that were truly their intent"

[Mayerling]

I take this passengers account with a pinch of salt. As far as I know no crew survivor mentioned Ismay or Smith mentioning this to them. Its not 100% certain that Ismay was of any major importance with such decisions on the ship. And if any Captain was likely to ignore Ismay on such an issue it was Smith.

edit:

Some more info from this site.

http://www.titanic-whitestarships.co...OWSS%20FAQ.htm

"At the US Inquiry following the disaster, two of Captain Smith's peers, (British liner captains from other shipping company's) testified that the speed Smith used in the ice field was the practice of the day considering the weather conditions at the time the speed was determined. The unwritten motto among captains was "Put the danger behind you as quickly as possible." That did not mean of course that they would run flank speed though an area know to contain hazards, it simply meant adjust your speed accordingly through your own prudence and common sense.

Titanic's surviving officers testified (and wrote in later memoirs) that they were not aware of any orders or influence to run Titanic at unsafe speeds at any time. The order to light additional boilers on Sunday morning (April 14) was standard for any new ship on it's maiden voyage during the "breaking in" period of new engines. If Ismay and Smith had collaborated to "beat Olympic's crossing time," slowing down to a safer speed on Sunday night through the ice field would not have hurt that possibility. They still had three additional days of good weather to "crank it up" and accomplish the mission if that were truly their intent"

Hi all,

Actually we will never know for certain whether or not the Ismay ordered Smith to go at full speed or if Smith was following typical practice in the Atlantic steamer trade. Smith was dead. If he had been around he might have straightened the matter out (it was to be the last voyage he made as the "Commodore" of White Star). However, Ismay would probably have denied it totally because of potential lawsuits (there would be many into the 1930s). Nobody would have believed him one way or another. As for getting Titanic into New York City early, it was the closest to achieving a Blue Riband for the ship - it was not as fast as the Cunarders or the German luxury liners of that day.

Jeff

[Phil H]

There is a view, is there not, that Smith was accident prone?

I seems to recall various collisions of ships under his command, one entering NY harbor, the disastrous collision between the Olymic and HMS Hawke(?), and of course, Titanic almost collided with another ship in leaving dock at Southampton.

Was Smith careless? OK - he had a good "bed-side manner" in regard to passengers. But did he not take precautions in handling his ships, perhaps because was he unaware what the size of the ships he commanded meant and the implications? was he past his sell-by date? Out of touch or not up-to-date in the skills needed in 1912.

Is this symptomatic of an attitude that might have made him foolhardy in an ice field, or prone to give in to pressure from his "boss" (Ismay)?

On a separate but related point, I have always detected a vacuum in the period between the collision with the iceberg and the final sinking of the ship. Did Smith fall apart? Did he suffer some sort of panic attack which left him incapable of command.

We hear much of the doings of the other ships' officers, but nowhere do I recall Smith being seen overseeing or directing loading the lifeboats, questioning progress, urging better efforts - i.e. acting as a commandeing officer, showing energy and initiative.

There are rather unbelieveable (because they do not chime with other accounts) of the Captain swimming out to a lifeboat to save a child.

In short - was Smith personally a contributing cause of the disaster and in his inaction to the extent of the loss of life (could he not/should he not have ensured that lifeboats left FULL, at the very least?

Phil

[kensei]

When I think of Captain Smith, I always remember an ironic quote of his that I read from an interview he gave just before Titanic set sail about how he was retiring after this voyage. He was asked to sum up his career on the high seas in one word, and the word he chose was "Uneventful."

[Phil H]

Kensei

Given his record, perhaps his view that his career had been "uneventful" confirms a certain complacency.

Phil

[louisa]

Actually the career of Captain Smith had not been uneventful.

Without looking it all up, and going from memory, Captain Smith had been involved in at least two collisions and a near miss with other ships (when he was captain of these vessels), before the Titanic.

[louisa]

And then there was the other 'near miss' as the Titanic was pulling out of Southampton.

[Mayerling]

Smith's last hours

Hi Phil,

Actually I thought Smith was active trying to get the attention of the ship whose lights he saw on the distant horizon (most likely the Californian) and in making sure the telegraphers kept sending the distress calls out. I might be wrong about both.

He does appear accident prone, especially after the business with the Olympic and the Hawke. The business with the New York at Southampton may be due to Smith still getting used to Titanic's power in pulling "lesser" liners towards her. Oddly enough, had that collission occurred it is possible that the Titanic would have been back in drydock for repairs and the passengers and crew transferred to other ships, and no great disaster would have occurred on 04/14 - 15/ 1912. On the other hand, what would have happened to the New York?

The two legends of Smith's end is his yelling as the sea poured over the top deck, "Be British my men!" to his crew, and the one you alluded to of him swimming to a lifeboat with a child he tried to save. Very gallant to be sure but probably not true.

But he did become a martyr and hero that night to remember. In is instructive to compare his post - disaster reputation (due to his death) with Captain Willie Turner of the Lusitania (who did not leave his sinking liner, but suvived). Turner got pilloried for not zigzagging when he reached the Irish Sea. As for Captain Henry Kendall of the Empress of Ireland, he to remained on board his ship to the end but survived. He was not pilloried for the collision (which sill remains murky), but after all, Captain Kendall did help catch Dr. Crippen and Ethel Le Neve ("Mr. and Master Robinson") on the Montrose only four years earlier, so he was already a public hero of sorts.

Jeff