The Sinking of the RMS Titanic and other ships.

[kensei]

Have just found it online-

http://www.titanic-nautical.com/RMS-Titanic-Iceberg-FAQ.html

It was taken the very next day after the sinking. Interesting- the Titanic lies about 13 miles from the point where it struck the iceberg. Also interesting- the red paint stain is slightly diagonal, meaning that the impact must have been so hard that the ship made the berg bob up and down a bit, even though the berg was much larger than the ship. Can't imagine what kind of impact the people must have felt.

Here's what's really maddening about the Titanic- if they had just rammed straight into the iceberg prow-first they would have been dead in the water and had a few casualties but they would not have sunk. In trying to skirt it they hit it in the worst way they possibly could have.

[louisa]

As Lightoller (so well) put it during the Inquest "Everything was against us"

[Adam Went]

Hi Kensei,

One can just imagine the forces that must have been at work when a ship the size and weight of the Titanic smashed into an iceberg at still fairly high speed. And yet most of the passengers never claime to have felt or heard anything more than a scraping or jarring sound, if anything at all - testament again to the sheer bulk of the ship even in such a heavy collision.

I'm sure if First Officer Murdoch had his time again he would have rammed the ship straight into the berg - even that would have done some pretty serious and costly damage and possibly still sunk the ship, given she would have sustained damage to not just the starboard side but also the port side and under the keel, and we know the watertight compartments weren't infallible - but they were always instructed to attempt to avoid any obstacles they had the opportunity to avoid.

Once again the sheer size of the ship, its greatest drawing point, also became its biggest disadvantage, as it couldn't turn as quickly or sharply as a smaller, nimbler vessel would have been able to, nor could she slow down quickly enough - perhaps explaining partially why she drifted so far past the iceberg before sinking (that and the manner in which she spiralled to the bottom once below the surface).

The Titanic's fate wasn't sealed by Murdoch's decision to try and avoid the iceberg, though, it was sealed by the fact that she was allowed to steam at all but full speed straight into an ice field at night time, which she had received numerous warnings for throughout the day. Disaster waiting to happen.

Ah, hindsight.

Cheers,
Adam.

[Mayerling]

I put this down on the W. T. Stead - Titanic thread too. While "googling" on Friday I found that someone has finally written a biography of Ismay (which is long overdue). It is entitled "The Sinking of J. Bruce Ismay".

Jeff

[Adam Went]

Hey Jeff,

Did a search and found that Frances Wilson is the author, a name i'd not heard of before - which lifted my hopes that the new biography would be an objective one. Then I read the first two paragraphs of this review:

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/reviews/how-to-survive-the-titanic-or-the-sinking-of-j-bruce-ismay-by-frances-wilson-2348784.html

Whatever one's personal views on Ismay are - or anybody, for that matter - it's always a welcome change to read an objective account of their life without personal prejudice.

Certainly worth adding to the collection though by the sounds of it!

Cheers,
Adam.

[louisa]

The book sounds interesting, so thanks for drawing our attention to it. The reviewer had a rather good sense of humour.

[Mayerling]

Hi Adam,

I just read the review you gave the site/cite for.

To me any attempt at a biography of Ismay is worthwhile. In the last thirty years Lightoller and Captain Smith finally earned their biographies (although Charles Lightoller had also written a memoir THE 'TITANIC' AND OTHER SHIPS). It was about time for an Ismay book (at the centennial of the tragedy - I am sure there will be at least another ten or so volumes coming out).

The best pencil sketch in any worthy account of Titanic was in Geoffrey Marcus, THE MAIDEN VOYAGE (still one of the best books on the shipwreck, even if out of date). Marcus came to the conclusion that Ismay was known to enjoy throwing his weight around in his role as Chairman of White Star and then head of the I. M. M. He was also on about five other corporate boards. But Marcus noted that Ismay rarely liked to take responsibility in ticklish situations. He was certainly in over his head on April 14/15, 1912, but I suspect that had he not been on board he still would have come across as a cold fish concerning the tragedy and the death toll (he probably would have been more upset at the loss of the ship). The author of this biogaphy, Francis Wilson, compares him to Lord Jim in the Conrad novel, as Jim was one of the officers on a ship that abandoned it and it's passengers at sea when they thought the ship was sinking (by the way, Conrad based this novel on an actual incident in the Indian Ocean in the 1880s). I consider Ismay's lack of concern (at least openly concerned) as resembling a line in Fitzgerald's THE GREAT GATSBY regarding the Daisy and Tom Buchanan, that like other rich people the made a mess and left others to clean it up. I am certain that Ismay thought his survival might not be noticed - and that underlings would cover or him.

In Walter Lord's THE NIGHT LIVES ON he mentions that within a year a horse that won a major race but belonged to Ismay's BROTHER (not to him) was disqualified for some bizaar reason. Nobody was going to forgive Ismay.

Jeff

[louisa]

Am I correct in thinking that Ismay took a place in a lifeboat that had quite a few empty seats when it was launched? He didn't actually push anybody out of the way but simply took a seat that was (and would have remained) vacant?

If this is the case then if he had gone down with the ship his life would simply have been added to the hundreds of other souls who lost their lives on that night.

Yes he would have died with some honour intact, but would any of us have behaved differently to Ismay at that precise minute, at that precise time?

[Phil H]

I think the point is, louisa, that (as Bruce Ismay himself appears to have recognised all too well) his survival smacked of cowardice and selfishness. There was an opportunity cost to his survival if you like - someone else COULD have taken his place - could he show that he had tried to fill all those places?

This was only a couple of years before the First World War, when young men not in uniform would be given white feathers (a symbol of cowardice) by women incensed that they were not at the front.

Gentlemen, among which Ismay wished to be counted, were expected to act as such - to live and die by an unwritten but well-understood code of honour.

JJ Astor, Guggenheim, Capt Smith (probably not technically a "gentleman" in Ismay's book) and many other people of rank and wealth died with the ship. Ismay survived. How was that to be perceived?

Further, there was good reason to believe that Ismay might have contributed to the disaster - by ignoring, or urging such - ice warnings; by allegedly wanting a quick passage to arrive in New York early. Remember, it is not whether he did such things that matter here - it is perception.

I can sympathise with Ismay's position; I might have done what he did - but it was a decision that was to haunt and ruin the rest of his life, it seems.

He lived when other men - with no responsibilities to the ship such as he had - died. The impression is that he was LOOKING for a space, not unselfishly helping others or putting self last - as he no doubt expected his officers and crew to do, and as they did.

No, Ismay's own generation made their comment on him, and he knew it, and IMHO deserved it fully.

Phil

[louisa]

Hi Phil,

Yes, point taken. Sounds like he did behave like a cad.

[Phil H]

It also strikes me that there were men on the Titanic wealthy enough to have made men like Lightoller rich beyond their wildest dreams, in return for a place on a boat with their wives, yet we hear of no such attempts at bribery.

They stayed aboard while Ismay - who could use his authority with the crew required - escaped.

Indeed, was not one aristocratic survivor heavily criticised for "tipping" the oarsmen of the lifeboat he was in (a "fiver", I think it was) becaue it was perceived as IF a bribe.

My sympathy for Ismay is also undermined by the smallmindedness and pettiness of White Star Line in paying crew (was it not stopped from the hour of the sinking?) and do I not recall them seeking compensation for lost band instruments etc.

Phil

[louisa]

As I recall, and I apologize if I am wrong, the band were not crew members but belonged to Wallace Hartley. As they all perished then there was nobody alive who could sue for compensation.

[Phil H]

I may have got it wrong. Apologies if I did.

Phil

[jason_c]

Hi Kensei,

One can just imagine the forces that must have been at work when a ship the size and weight of the Titanic smashed into an iceberg at still fairly high speed. And yet most of the passengers never claime to have felt or heard anything more than a scraping or jarring sound, if anything at all - testament again to the sheer bulk of the ship even in such a heavy collision.

I'm sure if First Officer Murdoch had his time again he would have rammed the ship straight into the berg - even that would have done some pretty serious and costly damage and possibly still sunk the ship, given she would have sustained damage to not just the starboard side but also the port side and under the keel, and we know the watertight compartments weren't infallible - but they were always instructed to attempt to avoid any obstacles they had the opportunity to avoid.

Once again the sheer size of the ship, its greatest drawing point, also became its biggest disadvantage, as it couldn't turn as quickly or sharply as a smaller, nimbler vessel would have been able to, nor could she slow down quickly enough - perhaps explaining partially why she drifted so far past the iceberg before sinking (that and the manner in which she spiralled to the bottom once below the surface).

The Titanic's fate wasn't sealed by Murdoch's decision to try and avoid the iceberg, though, it was sealed by the fact that she was allowed to steam at all but full speed straight into an ice field at night time, which she had received numerous warnings for throughout the day. Disaster waiting to happen.

Ah, hindsight.

Cheers,
Adam.

Ive read that this wasn't an uncommon occurrence. Can someone explain this?

[louisa]

I can't explain it, sorry, but I'd like to add something of my own understanding to the collision.

I have a great many books (more than they have in most libraries) about the Titanic and almost all of them state that the collision was most definitely felt by passengers (mainly steerage) and crew members who were unfortunate to be in the lower decks at the time.

Those that state they only felt a slight jarring motion were people berthed near the top of the ship (First and Second Class) - and the crew members who were stationed and berthed up there.