The Sinking of the RMS Titanic and other ships.

[Semper_Eadem]

Wasn't it Murdoch who was sticking steadfastly to the women and children first command, whereas Lightoller was more willing to allow men in the boats when nobody else would come forward? Or the other way around?

IIRC, the first lifeboat to be lowered had a capacity of 65 and left with 28, and that trend went on until people realised the ship was in serious trouble and then tried to overflow the few remaining lifeboats.

Lightoller also gains precedence simply for being the most senior officer of the Titanic to survive the sinking.

Cheers,
Adam.

Hey Adam,

No, it was Murdoch on Starboard who let couples go through to the Lifeboats and men to fill the boats when no women were to be found.

Lightoller was strictly Woman and Children, in fact Rhoda Abbott went up with her two boys Sidney 13 and Rossmore 16, who were both turned away by Lightoller, so Mother Abbott stayed on the ship and was one of the only women to survive the sinking of the Titanic, supposedly her and her boys jumped off the sinking ship and made their way to collapsible A, Eugene and Rossmore didn't make it though, Rossmore was lost swimming to A and Eugene died on a piece of wreckage according to what Rhoda later told her friend Amy Stanley, who was also on board the Titanic. Rhoda made it though even though her ribs were broken from getting kicked by other swimmers in the water, still she managed to get to collapsible A and survive until they were rescued by 5th Officer Harold Godfrey Lowe. So when Lightoller meant Children he meant Children only. I don't think Rhoda ever knew that on the Starboard side they were letting some men on or she would of taken her boys over there and all would of been saved.

[Adam Went]

Wasn't it Murdoch who was sticking steadfastly to the women and children first command, whereas Lightoller was more willing to allow men in the boats when nobody else would come forward? Or the other way around?

IIRC, the first lifeboat to be lowered had a capacity of 65 and left with 28, and that trend went on until people realised the ship was in serious trouble and then tried to overflow the few remaining lifeboats.

Lightoller also gains precedence simply for being the most senior officer of the Titanic to survive the sinking.

Cheers,
Adam.

[louisa]

That's because people just didn't want to get into the lifeboats. The ship seemed so much safer. They had no idea of what was going to happen. I don't think the ship was even listing at that time (I could be wrong).

If you stand on the roof of a building 7 floors high and looked down, that would give an idea of what people saw from the deck of the Titanic.

[jason_c]

Ultimately the Captain is the one in charge of the ship so if he survives, regardless of whether or not the accident is entirely his fault, and regardless of whether or not the claims being made against him are accurate, he's at the helm so he has to share his part of the responsibility.

Reminds me of William Turner, who survived the Lusitania sinking, or Pierro Calamai, captain of the Andrea Doria, which is a bit closer to home in regards to this latest tragedy......neither of them ever lived it down even though neither of those sinkings can be blamed squarely on the Captains.

As for Lightoller, he seems only to have been made a bit of a hero in later years, what with his efforts at Dunkirk in 1940 and then his portrayal in films like A Night To Remember, by Kenneth More.

Cheers,
Adam.

I believe it was Lightloller's side of the ship that left with many half empty life boats. Murdoch's side left with the boats far fuller.

[louisa]

I suppose we can't blame Liightoller for sucking up to the boss (if indeed he did). People used to get the sack for the smallest reason back then and there was a lot of unemployment.

All the modern sinkings don't come close to the events surrounding the Titanic. It was a one-off (fortunately) in so many respects.

[Adam Went]

Ultimately the Captain is the one in charge of the ship so if he survives, regardless of whether or not the accident is entirely his fault, and regardless of whether or not the claims being made against him are accurate, he's at the helm so he has to share his part of the responsibility.

Reminds me of William Turner, who survived the Lusitania sinking, or Pierro Calamai, captain of the Andrea Doria, which is a bit closer to home in regards to this latest tragedy......neither of them ever lived it down even though neither of those sinkings can be blamed squarely on the Captains.

As for Lightoller, he seems only to have been made a bit of a hero in later years, what with his efforts at Dunkirk in 1940 and then his portrayal in films like A Night To Remember, by Kenneth More.

Cheers,
Adam.

[Bridewell]

Accident Prone

I don't know if anyone has been keeping abreast with the developments of the stricken (and capsized) Italian passenger liner the Costa Concordia?

It ran aground and overturned, killing many people. The captain has been criticized for leaving the ship before the passengers and now he reckons he tripped and fell into a lifeboat. Yeah right.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...s-captain.html

He's accident-prone in the extreme. Instead of making it back to the ship to continue his heroic rescue he fell into a taxi as well.

[louisa]

Graham - I am also in the process of reading The Sinking of J Bruce Ismay. If the reader is to be believed then yes, it does sound as if Lightoller was 'brown-nosing' Ismay.

After reading the first chapter, something occurred to me. After the Titanic sank, I wonder just how many of us would have consented to our lifeboat being turned around to go back for survivors?

It's a difficult one isn't it?

[Graham]

I just read Frances Wilson's excellent book "The Sinking Of J Bruce Ismay", very much worth a read to anyone interested in The Titanic and all who sailed in her.

According to Wilson, Lightoller wasn't seen as much of a hero after the inquiries, more as a toady to Ismay and the White Star Line.

As something of a precursor to the Costa Concordia, Ismay at one point claimed that someone actually pushed him into the lifeboat....course they did!

The Titanic seems to me to have been a tubful of avoidable accidents just waiting to happen - which they did.

Graham

[Adam Went]

Very sad story and a reminder that technology in 2012 - as it was believed in 1912 - is still not infallible and can still come back to bite you.

However, I have to say on that note that i'm tired of hearing the comparisons to the Titanic, especially from those who were on board. There's not even the most remote likeness to the Titanic sinking with the Costa Concordia, apart from the fact that they were both ships. Some people said it was just like being on the Titanic, how can they possibly know what it was like to be on board the Titanic?

Anyway, I digress....will be interesting to see how the salvage operation progresses.

Cheers,
Adam.

[jason_c]

Hi louisa,

Yes, I too have been watching this whole sorry episode unfold, live on TV. RIP to those who are lost and my sincere condolences to their loved ones. Here is the best translation I have found, as yet, of the conversation between Capt. Schettino of the Costa Concordia and Capt. Gregorio De Falco of the Italian Coast Guard in Livorno.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WX_08zcCmx8

Best Wishes,
Zodiac.

Im intrigued by the way this information is being released so soon. The Captain looks to have screwed up big time. However, his employer and Italian authorities seem to be hanging him out to dry very publicly, very quickly. There's no waiting on months of legal procedure to obtain justice in this case. Its a rather one sided media war.

[Zodiac]

I don't know if anyone has been keeping abreast with the developments of the stricken (and capsized) Italian passenger liner the Costa Concordia?

It ran aground and overturned, killing many people. The captain has been criticized for leaving the ship before the passengers and now he reckons he tripped and fell into a lifeboat. Yeah right.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...s-captain.html

Hi louisa,

Yes, I too have been watching this whole sorry episode unfold, live on TV. RIP to those who are lost and my sincere condolences to their loved ones. Here is the best translation I have found, as yet, of the conversation between Capt. Schettino of the Costa Concordia and Capt. Gregorio De Falco of the Italian Coast Guard in Livorno.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WX_08zcCmx8

Best Wishes,
Zodiac.

[louisa]

I don't know if anyone has been keeping abreast with the developments of the stricken (and capsized) Italian passenger liner the Costa Concordia?

It ran aground and overturned, killing many people. The captain has been criticized for leaving the ship before the passengers and now he reckons he tripped and fell into a lifeboat. Yeah right.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/9023753/Costa-Concordia-Flee-I-just-tripped-into-a-lifeboat-says-captain.html

[Adam Went]

Hi Jeff,

Again many thanks for posting up those references - as you say they seem to be everywhere, not easy to think off of the top of the head but you hear them time and time again!

The original Poseidon Adventure had quite a few fairly big names in it and it was a decent movie but IMO dragged on a little bit too much in parts....

As for specifically Titanic related movies, Cameron's aside, there's not been a lot of them in the past 30 years or so.....plenty of documentaries but once the ship was discovered and then Cameron's blockbuster came out, I think it kind of turned movie producers away from trying to take on a film like that, very difficult to beat in terms of revenue.

Hope you enjoy your holidays!

Cheers,
Adam.

[Mayerling]

Thanks Adam, I'm about to leave for my holiday.

You know I have never seen the original POSEIDON ADVENTURE, it's sequels, or the remake. There is another one, GOLIATH AWAKES about a similar sea tragedy, with Sir Christopher Lee (naturally) as a maniacle Captain. As for the original POSEIDON , one of the problems about it now is it is a transitional film for one of it's stars. Leslie Nielsen is the capatin of that vessel, and thinking of him (post 1980) one does not recall his dramatic roles (some as villain) but as the "great" Lieutenant Frank Drebbin of The Police Files and other comedies. It is hard to think of Drebbin in an overturned ocean liner without cracking up!

The television film about the loss of the HMHS Britannic was mentioned in an earlier comment, but I recalled last night that the creation, career, use of, and loss of the C. S. S. Hunley was the subject of a television film of that name (THE HUNLEY) starring Armand Assante and Donald Sutherland (as Gerneral Pierre Gustave Toussaint Beauregard). It came out about 2000 or so, one of several films on the Civil War that Ted Turner produced (GETTYSBURG was another as was ANDERSONVILLE).

Turner also produced a film about the Monitor and the Merrimac (I think the title mentioned Hampton Roads, but I'm not sure). E. G. Marshall and Fritz Weaver (as John Ericcson) were in it. While it did not deal with the self-destruction of the C. S. S. Virginia (the "Merrimac's" correct name as a Confederate craft) in May 1862 or the loss of the U. S. S. Monitor in that storm off Cape Hatteras (where it was later found and partly raised), it did do a vivid set of scenes of the loss of U.S.S. Cumberland and U. S.S. Congress by the "Virginia".

Unfortunately Turner stopped short of doing anything about the C.S.S. Alabama - a really worthy subject as (despite it being a Confederate craft) it was the greatest commerce raider under American command in our history. Maybe someday he or someone else will. My suggestion for a title is "Semmes' Command" after her commander, Captain (later Admiral) Raphael Semmes.

Titanic references pop up all over. A Miriam Hopkins' film comedy of the middle 1930s, MILLION DOLLAR LADY, explains that she grew up an orphan (but a rich one) due to her father being the world's richest man who went down on the Titanic. But the first two names of the father are "John Jacob" without the "Astor", and his wife went down with him (the second Mrs. Astor survived). A comic reference (somewhat hidden) popped up in POCKETFUL OF MIRACLES, where Peter Falk tries to steer away a suspicious diplomat from Spain from a spurious Bette Davis as a dowager. He tells the diplomat there has been a catastrophe - the Staten Island Ferry is sinking in the harbor due to hitting an iceberg, and then being accidentally torpedoed by one of our submarines (a bit of the Lusitania is thrown in). In a series, BACKSTAIRS IN THE WHITE HOUSE, made in the 1970s, President Taft (Victor Buono) is disturbed about his old friend Theodore Roosevelt turning against him just before the 1912 Presidential election, but he is optimistic their joint friend Major Butt can smooth over the differences. Buono is asked where Butt is, and says he'll be home from a European vacation next week. He's returning on the Titanic.

Jeff